Hello!
I am AntiFlagWaver. I came across Old American Century in my search for progressive political web-sites, and knew that it was one of the best I had seen. When I saw they had a forum, I knew I had to join.
My name kind of describes me. What comes to mind when you think of a American flagwaver? Republican? Bush-supporter? War supporter? France Hater? U.N. hater? Thinks America is fantastic and can do no wrong? etc. etc. etc.
Well, think of the opposite of that picture and you have someone like me. I am currently beyond outraged at what I see happening in America, and that America is doing in the world. I am rabidly against the Iraq war, so much so that I support the insurrgency because they have a more legitimate claim to Iraq than any puppet government that US troops are fighting (and sadly dying) to install.
I considered myself a patriot until Bush started beating the war-drums for Iraq. I saw through the lies then, when nobody else around me seemed to care. Now Bush is re-elected. Condi Rice is going to Secretary of State. Rumsfeld and the neo-cons get at least four more years to prove their vision of the world is right. Gonzales will be Attorney General (worse than Ashcroft, if that is even possible).
The US press is about as non-critical as it can get. I am outraged and amazed at what I see, and I believe things will get worse before they get better.
Ok, now you know me. I don't believe I am the only one who feels these things here.
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OLD American Century / White Rose Society message boards > Political Discussion forums > Welcome New Members!
Welcome, Anti.
Fortunately, flying the George W. Bush Loyalty Flag isn't mandatory yet.
Fortunately, flying the George W. Bush Loyalty Flag isn't mandatory yet.
give it time, folks- he has four years to make it mandatory.
-t-
(always the eternal optimist)
-t-
(always the eternal optimist)
well just to be prepared im getting I love Bush and an american flag tattod on my forhead 
It'll look good next to the bar code
It'll look good next to the bar code
| QUOTE (rexateyfor @ Thursday, 6 January 2005, 10:44 pm) |
| well just to be prepared im getting I love Bush and an american flag tattod on my forhead It'll look good next to the bar code |
and the
6 6 6
-t-
oh ya cant forget that, thats gonna be done in goats blood at the Bohemian Grove Next month
Have they made it a crime to say "F*ck Bush!" yet? No? Well, "F*CK BUSH and "F*CK America for following him. 
| QUOTE (AntiFlagWaver @ Friday, 7 January 2005, 4:13 pm) |
| Have they made it a crime to say "F*ck Bush!" yet? No? Well, "F*CK BUSH and "F*CK America for following him. |
Hello Anti,
Yes, I think that one is a crime. It's going to bring scrutiny from the FBI at the very least. I was in Ireland last summer and surprised at the freedom of speech I felt there. You could yell "fuck bush" as loudly as you wanted with impunity. I didn't
but I kept sort of looking over my shoulder in public when discussing American politics. That's what it's come down to here now. We "feel" that it's not safe to say such things out loud. And it isn't. Regarding the American flag. On every anti-invasion protest march I attended I attached an American flag on either side of my signs. It belongs to US too.
I also had an American flag on my car next to my Kerry sticker.
And an "I
America" sign next to that. The flag does NOT belong to only the right wingers. An alternative:Gadsden pins and flags.
Navy Jack
Historical flags...info:
http://www.usflagmfg.com/historical/
About me: Lifelong Liberal. Truthseeker. Activist. For justice for ALL.
I have always had a tendency to take people at face value and always give the benefit of the doubt. Some construe that as being naive. I think it's better to err on the side of decency and fairness. Just me.
Glad to see you here. I think you'll like it.
| QUOTE (Panda @ Sunday, 9 January 2005, 1:57 am) |
| Hello Anti, Yes, I think that one is a crime. It's going to bring scrutiny from the FBI at the very least. I was in Ireland last summer and surprised at the freedom of speech I felt there. You could yell "fuck bush" as loudly as you wanted with impunity. I didn't but I kept sort of looking over my shoulder in public when discussing American politics. That's what it's come down to here now. We "feel" that it's not safe to say such things out loud. And it isn't. Regarding the American flag. On every anti-invasion protest march I attended I attached an American flag on either side of my signs. It belongs to US too. I also had an American flag on my car next to my Kerry sticker. And an "I America" sign next to that. The flag does NOT belong to only the right wingers. An alternative:Gadsden pins and flags. Navy Jack Historical flags...info: http://www.usflagmfg.com/historical/ About me: Lifelong Liberal. Truthseeker. Activist. For justice for ALL. I have always had a tendency to take people at face value and always give the benefit of the doubt. Some construe that as being naive. I think it's better to err on the side of decency and fairness. Just me. Glad to see you here. I think you'll like it. |
Of course you are right. I just feel angry and frustrated that America has bought into this con-artist's (Bush's) game without using any common sense or judgement. Its very hard for me to love an America that follows and is loyal to Bush and the Republicans. I feel a love-hate relationship with America. As I have said in another thread, the problem is bigger than Bush now. Much bigger.
Imagine that back in the early 70's instead of impeaching Nixon, the people and media cheered him and supported him and did not care that he had trashed the Constitution (as Bush has and is doing now). Thats exactly the scenario we face right now. Bush is like Nixon in many ways, only this time he has the media and a majority of the population backing him. Republicans control all three branches of govt. and the Democracts as a political force seem to be non-existant. (I could use stronger language to describe my disgust with the Democracts).
What is the answer? How do we fight the madness? POAC is great for discussing it, but its all "preaching to the choir". How do we change minds? How do we make mainstream America realize what is going on, when they don't seem to care at all about the bad things that are happening? Thats the problem we all need to work on solving.
If you want to change peoples minds, you first have to stop calling them idiots.
#1 it is not accurate
#2 it only closes peoples minds to what you have to say.
If you want people to believe what you say, stop buying into every conspiracy theory out there, quit demonizing the opposition and take an honest look at which policies and which party pose a REAL threat to our freedoms.
#1 it is not accurate
#2 it only closes peoples minds to what you have to say.
If you want people to believe what you say, stop buying into every conspiracy theory out there, quit demonizing the opposition and take an honest look at which policies and which party pose a REAL threat to our freedoms.
| QUOTE (Constitutionally Speaking @ Sunday, 9 January 2005, 7:07 pm) |
| If you want to change peoples minds, you first have to stop calling them idiots. #1 it is not accurate #2 it only closes peoples minds to what you have to say. If you want people to believe what you say, stop buying into every conspiracy theory out there, quit demonizing the opposition and take an honest look at which policies and which party pose a REAL threat to our freedoms. |
i agree that we must stop calling people 'idiots.'
100% agreed...
that is the problem with my party, the snobbery...
but 'conspiracy'? c'mon... gimee a break.
the REAL threat to my freedom is ANY party that seeks to minimize the bill of rights-
and right now, old friend, that is YOUR party.
get real. wake up. you know better.
-t-
Welcome Antiflag! Thank your for the great introduction to yourself.. and the conversation that followed it.
| QUOTE |
| Bush is like Nixon in many ways, only this time he has the media and a majority of the population backing him |
This really isn't a big surprise.. .his boy Karl worked for Nixon! Guess we know where he got his tricky dick media manipulation concepts!
And you asked about action... check out poac's new Action Alerts! We do want to make a difference... not just talk but letter campaigns, etc.
POAC Action Alerts
We have made a difference... Jennifer Dyer is now honorable discharged from the military... and on to number two:
My Webpage
Military Voices
If you have suggestions please share them!
And CS... Love ya... but please please stick to topic. I didn't see "idiot" anywhere in here
And T... great response.
I did not mean to imply that Anti-flag had said idiot. I meant it as an honest answer as to how people should NOT go about convincing "the other side". Ant-flag had asked:
| QUOTE |
| How do we change minds? How do we make mainstream America realize what is going on, when they don't seem to care at all about the bad things that are happening? Thats the problem we all need to work on solving. |
I was giving my opinion as to why I believe Kerry lost the election: the left had alienated too many people.
I apologise for any ambiguity.
| QUOTE |
| If you want people to believe what you say, stop buying into every conspiracy theory out there, quit demonizing the opposition and take an honest look at which policies and which party pose a REAL threat to our freedoms. |
I think what CS meant to say was If you want people to believe what you say, stop disregarding anything that disrupts your paradigm as a conspiracy theory (Like when the republicans discounted the violations of the voting rights act in Ohio as elements of the X files crowd) quit demonizing the opposition (like blaming libruls for every thing under the sun even if its the effects of your own parties policies), and take an honest look at which policies and which party pose a REAL threat to our freedoms.
yeah, I'm pretty sure that's probably what he meant.
| QUOTE (POAC @ Monday, 10 January 2005, 7:12 am) |
| I think what CS meant to say was If you want people to believe what you say, stop disregarding anything that disrupts your paradigm as a conspiracy theory (Like when the republicans discounted the violations of the voting rights act in Ohio as elements of the X files crowd) quit demonizing the opposition (like blaming libruls for every thing under the sun even if its the effects of your own parties policies), and take an honest look at which policies and which party pose a REAL threat to our freedoms. yeah, I'm pretty sure that's probably what he meant. |
LOL
yep, that is what he meant when he wasn't ambiguous.
LOL
-t-
| QUOTE (Constitutionally Speaking @ Monday, 10 January 2005, 6:30 am) |
| I did not mean to imply that Anti-flag had said idiot. I meant it as an honest answer as to how people should NOT go about convincing "the other side". Ant-flag had asked: I was giving my opinion as to why I believe Kerry lost the election: the left had alienated too many people. I apologise for any ambiguity. |
That opinion is not close to the truth. Kerry did not fight back, alienated the left that would have supported him, and generally ran a very ineffective campaign. We can argue about vote fraud all we want. I'm sure there was some involved, but I don't know if it was enough to switch Ohio or if it just made the gap larger than it should be. But the fact of the matter is Kerry could have won handily if he didn't set himself up for the media, if he would have countered arguments against him, if he could have made effective speeches (the guy just droned and droned), and if he could have a campaign managed enough that he got the points across. The "Moral Values" thing was a blanket media creation. Iraq counted twice, it was inside and outside the moral values section. Moral values does not always equal hot-button Religious Right topics such as abortion and gay marriage. It could very well have meant how Bush was handling the poor, how he handled the torture scandal, the people he surrounded himself with...
To say Kerry lost because he was too liberal isn't true. Maybe Rush, O'Reilly, Hannity, Coulter, and Liddy will say it is, but if you look at how he handled himself during the campaign, it's obvious that the Democrats didn't pick a winner.
I DID call the American people "stupid and ignorant" in another thread, so technically I did call them idiots. Thats more of an expression of my frustration and feelings of political impotence than the truth. Its not that simple, of course.
Personally, knowing what I know, I would have voted for ANYONE except for Bush. And I mean anyone. I did not like Kerry, but I would have wanted him to be President much more than Bush simply because Bush had proven to me that he lacked the common morality and common sense to be a good leader. He had proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt with Iraq. But America chose him to continue to be President.
I stand by my assertion that the American people are generally clueless. I am angry about it. I think a lot of bad things will come from Bush's continued presidency, and I think some bad things will come to those same Americans who put this deceitful administration back in office.
But no matter what, Bush won't be held accountable, for anything. That's the sad lesson of the first four years.
Personally, knowing what I know, I would have voted for ANYONE except for Bush. And I mean anyone. I did not like Kerry, but I would have wanted him to be President much more than Bush simply because Bush had proven to me that he lacked the common morality and common sense to be a good leader. He had proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt with Iraq. But America chose him to continue to be President.
I stand by my assertion that the American people are generally clueless. I am angry about it. I think a lot of bad things will come from Bush's continued presidency, and I think some bad things will come to those same Americans who put this deceitful administration back in office.
But no matter what, Bush won't be held accountable, for anything. That's the sad lesson of the first four years.
| QUOTE (POAC @ Monday, 10 January 2005, 5:12 am) |
| I think what CS meant to say was If you want people to believe what you say, stop disregarding anything that disrupts your paradigm as a conspiracy theory (Like when the republicans discounted the violations of the voting rights act in Ohio as elements of the X files crowd) quit demonizing the opposition (like blaming libruls for every thing under the sun even if its the effects of your own parties policies), and take an honest look at which policies and which party pose a REAL threat to our freedoms. yeah, I'm pretty sure that's probably what he meant. |
Actually, yeah.
I know we are guilty of it also. And I am guilty of a couple of those thoughts! I will try to keep a more open mind (but still reserve the right to think y'all are wrong! )
| QUOTE (AntiFlagWaver @ Monday, 10 January 2005, 11:12 am) |
| I DID call the American people "stupid and ignorant" in another thread, so technically I did call them idiots. Thats more of an expression of my frustration and feelings of political impotence than the truth. Its not that simple, of course. Personally, knowing what I know, I would have voted for ANYONE except for Bush. And I mean anyone. I did not like Kerry, but I would have wanted him to be President much more than Bush simply because Bush had proven to me that he lacked the common morality and common sense to be a good leader. He had proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt with Iraq. But America chose him to continue to be President. I stand by my assertion that the American people are generally clueless. I am angry about it. I think a lot of bad things will come from Bush's continued presidency, and I think some bad things will come to those same Americans who put this deceitful administration back in office. But no matter what, Bush won't be held accountable, for anything. That's the sad lesson of the first four years. |
We all are guilty of it at one point or another. It just ain't the way to go about winning the hearts and minds of those you wish to convince!
| QUOTE (Constitutionally Speaking @ Monday, 10 January 2005, 4:30 am) |
| I did not mean to imply that Anti-flag had said idiot. I meant it as an honest answer as to how people should NOT go about convincing "the other side". Ant-flag had asked: I was giving my opinion as to why I believe Kerry lost the election: the left had alienated too many people. I apologise for any ambiguity. |
Well I'm saying it...you're an idiot, CS, you've always been an idiot, why should you change now. Kerry lost the election because your president cheated again., then Kerry rolled over just like Gore did plain and simple....
Doc
| QUOTE (Constitutionally Speaking @ Monday, 10 January 2005, 1:21 pm) | ||
We all are guilty of it at one point or another. It just ain't the way to go about winning the hearts and minds of those you wish to convince! |
Well it's hard to win the hearts and minds of idiots like you, who sit around babbling the same crap that comes out of Hannity's and Rush's mouths, the right consist of nothing but babbling morons like yourself CS...but hey we all knew that.
Doc
| QUOTE (AntiFlagWaver @ Friday, 7 January 2005, 4:13 pm) |
| Have they made it a crime to say "F*ck Bush!" yet? |
Don't you mean "Fuck B***?"
| QUOTE (happymisanthropy @ Monday, 10 January 2005, 4:19 pm) |
| Don't you mean "Fuck B***?" |
that is priceless!!!!!
we must remember to use symbols when we say the REAL dirty word!
-t-
| QUOTE (Constitutionally Speaking @ Sunday, 9 January 2005, 7:07 pm) |
| If you want to change peoples minds, you first have to stop calling them idiots. #1 it is not accurate #2 it only closes peoples minds to what you have to say. |
thought you might be interested in what i had to say about it early last month...
| QUOTE |
REASON V. RELIGION- Snobs Frame the Debate REASON V. RELIGION we can be RIGHT but it does us no good if we don't WIN. we need PRAGMATIC LEADERSHIP. We’ve allowed them to expose the weakness of our leadership- true snobbery. The hierarchy of the democratic leadership truly believes that they are smarter than the American people, that they ‘know’ what is best- paternalism at its most nauseating. The democratic leadership acts like the oldest kid in the family- the one that the other kids wish they could catch doing something, ANYTHING, wrong. We’ve become despicable, the annoying smart-ass group of folks who ignore their base (because they are ignorant), who ignore the majority of Americans on the issue of religion (because they are ignorant), who ignore the proven political wisdom of the African-american community (because they are ignorant), who ignore the patriotic pride and nationalism of a nation that is still young (because they are ignorant),….. in short- a party that says ‘I know better than you what is good for you.’ I submit to you that any political movement that ignores those whom it purports to represent IS IGNORANT BY DEFINITION. This ain’t brain science! We don’t have to prove that Christ is dead, that evolution is true, that gays are all good parents, that blacks are noble, that women are men,’ that children are better off being raised ‘by a villiage…’ We only have to show that we are on the side of the people we purport to represent. It IS democracy, RIGHT? This means that we must convince a majority of the represented that we UNDERSTAND THEIR NEEDS. As long as we think they are too stupid to know what is best for them, we are not really proponents of DEMOCRACY. people see through phoney baloney. they might not be able to articulate why, but they really just didn't like john kerry. they knew that bush is a bumbling idiot, but they also knew john kerry thinks he's better than them. it came through loud and clear. and nobody like somebody who thinks they are stupid. nobody likes someone who makes them feel inferior. nobody likes a SNOB. It is truly sad when the group of folks who think we best represent their beliefs are CANADIANS (not that there’s anything wrong with being Canadian EXCEPT THEY CAN’T VOTE). Could we just TRY to be a bit more pragmatic? As long as we allow a few greedy republicans to steal Jesus for political reasons, we will never win another election. This is about REALITY- about the heart and soul of America- the heart and soul of MANKIND- about what people think, how they feel, and what they want to believe. we could change what they believe, but it is impossible to change what they WANT to believe. For 10,000 years of recorded history, for some reason mankind has CHOSEN to believe in a higher power. Most people choose to believe that there’ a “higher” purpose to this thing called life. As long as we demand that they accept that their life is pointless and futile, that nothing matters in the long run, that when they die they rot and it all ends there- we will lose. it runs contrary to the human spirit. it is fools gold. so we are smarter. lots of good it does us and the rest of the world when we allow republicans to exploit our snobbery, to make themselves appear more passionate. |
CS you wouldn't know what accuracy in facts was if it bit you in the ass, and as far as closed mindness, you are the king of them all buddy....
Doc
Doc
So to sum up the thread... we welcome anti flag waver... and discussion commense in the other threads! 
| QUOTE (Ronnie Jakers @ Tuesday, 11 January 2005, 8:00 pm) |
| So to sum up the thread... we welcome anti flag waver... and discussion commense in the other threads! |
Yeah welcome aboard AntiFlag Waver...
Doc
Thanx. There seems to be a pretty clued-in group of people here, and I think I will like it.
just a bunch of dirty patchouli stinking pinko commies if you ask me.
welcome
welcome
| QUOTE (POAC @ Wednesday, 12 January 2005, 12:59 pm) |
| just a bunch of dirty patchouli stinking pinko commies if you ask me. welcome |
Yeah, but we are nice dirty, pinko commies...welcome aboard...
Doc
| QUOTE (POAC @ Wednesday, 12 January 2005, 12:59 pm) |
| just a bunch of dirty patchouli stinking pinko commies if you ask me. welcome |
SNIFF "Some" of us wouldn't be caught dead around that odor.
Always reminded me of mildew.
It beats "Eau D'Ovine"
No offense meant to anyone with no sense of smell.
I prefer to smell good while I agitate.
And I don't mean skunk just in case I gave anyone a perfect straight line.
actually, i really like patchouli. Reminds me of my art school days.
| QUOTE (Panda @ Wednesday, 12 January 2005, 3:19 pm) | ||
SNIFF "Some" of us wouldn't be caught dead around that odor. Always reminded me of mildew. It beats "Eau D'Ovine" No offense meant to anyone with no sense of smell. I prefer to smell good while I agitate. And I don't mean skunk just in case I gave anyone a perfect straight line. |
Gotta love that Panda....
Doc
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