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sky of mind
QUOTE(Realistic @ Sunday, 15 October 2006, 5:44 pm) [snapback]75786[/snapback]

I find it more than difficult, (let's say impossible) to entertain the notion that 9/11 is anything more than it obviously was; a group of fanatical islamics willing to die to create havoc on the great Satan.

Anyone who could entertain such a notion would have to explain, in light of all the leaks of much less significant "secrets", how such a conspiracy could remain "undercover".

Such a supposition would have to be based on an intelligent argument supported by facts.

Tin foil hats have their place, but that place is not in a reasonable discussion.





Good points there realistic, but that does not preclude a passive conspiracy.
Though they could not have known exactly what would be happening, they could well have known that something was going to happen, and did nothing to prevent it. We now know that Condi was given warning, and isn't it interesting that the one person who should remember, says she can't?

That would be a passive conspiracy.
It's much easier to hide something you didn't do than to hide something you did.


Welcome to the Forum Real.
Celticrebel
Read all the references to the accusations put forth against the Bush Administration. Don't just ingest what the MSM feeds you.At the very least the Administartion is guilty of negligence; possibly guilty of complicity; and at the worst guilty of orchestrating it with either small or large scale involvement. Just read everything you can with an open mind, if after you read it all you still think its a bunch of crap, so be it. But...give it a chance.

Here is an excellent article to start with as it has numerous citations and the link to the PNAC site and ideologies.
Max-1
QUOTE(Realistic @ Sunday, 15 October 2006, 5:44 pm) [snapback]75786[/snapback]
I find it more than difficult, (let's say impossible) to entertain the notion that 9/11 is anything more than it obviously was; a group of fanatical islamics willing to die to create havoc on the great Satan.

Anyone who could entertain such a notion would have to explain, in light of all the leaks of much less significant "secrets", how such a conspiracy could remain "undercover".

Such a supposition would have to be based on an intelligent argument supported by facts.

Tin foil hats have their place, but that place is not in a reasonable discussion.
So to be Realistic,

Condi actually meant it when she said, "No body in the Administration imagined that they would use planes and fly them into buildings." ????

The Pentagon drill a year prior didn't happen???

The war games on 9/11 weren't really scheduled in advance???

The Tenet/Rice meeting in July of 2001 meant nothing???

The PDB of Aug. 2001 wasn't real???

tinfoilhat.gif unsure.gif tinfoilhat.gif

Rousseau
Nope, it was all just an amazing series of interlinking coincidences on that day.


Gee, that Ossama guy should buy a loto ticket, if he keeps getting luck like that !!! biggrin.gif
Southpaw
QUOTE(Realistic @ Sunday, 15 October 2006, 6:44 pm) [snapback]75786[/snapback]

I find it more than difficult, (let's say impossible) to entertain the notion that 9/11 is anything more than it obviously was; a group of fanatical islamics willing to die to create havoc on the great Satan.

Anyone who could entertain such a notion would have to explain, in light of all the leaks of much less significant "secrets", how such a conspiracy could remain "undercover".

Such a supposition would have to be based on an intelligent argument supported by facts.

Tin foil hats have their place, but that place is not in a reasonable discussion.


There is just so much room in a warm and fuzzy cocoon. On to the next thiking man's forum with your message of wisdom. Right????????
soon2b
I'm sure it won't change the mind of any true believer, but here's an excellent article on the subject from a man and a publication I'm sure are not "in on it":
Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
By Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive. Posted September 18, 2006.


http://www.alternet.org/story/41601/
Southpaw
QUOTE(soon2b @ Tuesday, 17 October 2006, 7:58 am) [snapback]75941[/snapback]

I'm sure it won't change the mind of any true believer, but here's an excellent article on the subject from a man and a publication I'm sure are not "in on it":
Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
By Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive. Posted September 18, 2006.
http://www.alternet.org/story/41601/


It is not a matter of " mind changing " and it is not a particularly interesting article from whatever opinion the reader is. I have read it before. It is just another opinion piece by someone with an opinion. Nothing enlightening or evidential in nature.
sky of mind
QUOTE(Southpaw @ Tuesday, 17 October 2006, 7:14 am) [snapback]75944[/snapback]

It is not a matter of " mind changing " and it is not a particularly interesting article from whatever opinion the reader is. I have read it before. It is just another opinion piece by someone with an opinion. Nothing enlightening or evidential in nature.




And being pro-conspiracy in all it's various degrees and forms, is nothing more than opinions.
Why should one be more valid than another, because you happen to agree with it?


I might point out, that Mr Bush is also not very inclined to change his mind very often,
no matter how logical the "opinion".
Max-1
Sky,

from the article that you posted:

QUOTE


Why did dust clouds shoot out of the Twin Towers as they fell?

Or, as Griffin poses it in Pearl Harbor: "What other than explosives could turn concrete into powder and then eject it horizontally 150 feet or more?"

Corley, who headed up the investigation for the American Society of Civil Engineers and FEMA, gives a quick response to that. "That is simply the air pressure being pushed down," he says. "Once the collapse started, then you had roughly a twenty-story building and roughly a thirty-story building acting as a very large mass to push everything down. The air pressure gets quite something, and the windows on the lower floors break, and you see puffs of smoke coming out of them." Debunking 9/11 Myths offers the same explanation and cites structural engineer Jon Magnusson, who says this expulsion of air and debris is fairly common when buildings collapse.
So that explains why that window burst. Yea that one in the middle on that side. No not a row of windows. And no, not floor after floor, window after window as one might expect if such pressure of a twenty or thirty story building were plowing down.

How silly of me. unsure.gif

QUOTE


Why did the tower that was hit second fall first?

"All other things being equal, then, the tower that was struck first should have collapsed first. And yet, although the South Tower was struck seventeen minutes later than the North Tower, it collapsed twenty-nine minutes earlier," writes Griffin in Pearl Harbor. The fact that the South Tower fell first, he concludes, "suggests that the collapse of these buildings was caused by something other than the fires."

But all things weren't equal. "The damage done to the second building was more serious than the damage done to the first," says Corley.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology concurs. Its "Final Report on the Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers" notes that ten core columns were severed in the South Tower, whereas only six were severed in the North. And 20,000 more square feet of insulation was stripped from the trusses in the South Tower than the North. The report "found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001."
Oh, I understand now. When the core columns were severed on roughly floors 80 and 90 they also caused then to sever on floor one and two also. It's making sense now... blink.gif

QUOTE


What about Building 7?

This is a favorite of the conspiracy theorists, since the planes did not strike this structure. But the building did sustain damage from the debris of the Twin Towers. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom--approximately ten stories--about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out," Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator for the National Institute of Standards and Technology, told Popular Mechanics.

What's more, the fire in the building lasted for about eight hours, in part because there were fuel tanks in the basement and on some of the floors. "The building was designed for a fire duration of no more than about three hours," says Corley. "Eight hours was way more than what that building was designed for." (Corley, by the way, also headed up the investigation of the Murrah Building's collapse in Oklahoma City.)

The National Institute of Standards and Technology is still studying the collapse of Building 7, but its initial report says: "NIST has seen no evidence that the collapse of WTC 7 was caused by bombs, missiles, or controlled demolition."
K. I understand. Building shredded on the south side. Building burns for 8 hours. Building falls. Not to the south, that shredded southern face that burned for 8 hours, bu instead falls into it's foot print. And well, since the NIST hasn't explained why it fell, then it must mean that bombs have been ruled out. Let me guess, they tested for explosives before they junked that scrap heap of a building into the ocean. huh.gif

QUOTE


What about the Pentagon?

Conspiracy theorists will bend your ear explaining that the American Airlines Boeing 757 couldn't possibly have made such a small hole in the Pentagon. Griffin in Pearl Harbor: "The orifice created by the impact . . . was at most eighteen feet in diameter. Is it not absurd to suggest that a Boeing 757 created and then disappeared into such a small hole? . . . Can anyone seriously believe that a 125-foot-wide airplane created and then went inside a hole less than twenty-feet wide?"

First of all, the hole was actually ninety feet wide, according to the "Pentagon Building Performance Report" of January 2003, which the American Society of Civil Engineers and the Structural Engineering Institute put out. And Professor Sozen of Purdue, one of the authors of that report, has an explanation.

"The reinforced columns of the Pentagon destroyed the wings," says Sozen. "That's why the hole is smaller. It had to be smaller." Since working on that report, Sozen has designed simulations at Purdue, and his results correspond with what happened to Flight 77, he says. Sozen, who identifies himself as a progressive, says it is "ridiculous to deny" that the American Airlines plane hit the Pentagon. And, he adds, if Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon, where did it go and "what happened to the people in that plane"?

But we know what happened to them. They died at the Pentagon. "All but five of the 189 people who died on the aircraft and in the Pentagon were later identified through DNA testing," according to Debunking 9/11 Myths.
Yes, the collapsed space was 90 feet wide, but that was the entire width of the collapsed front portion AFTER the impact and fire. That 125 foot wide plane, as he would have you to believe, included the wings, which have been shown by NIST to have impacted the building and disintegrated rather than puncture the building. So we're left with the 16 foot wide fuselage. And this went through 6, three foot thick concrete walls, the first being a steel reinforced, bomb proof wall. O.K. that makes a lot of sense, NO?

QUOTE


Finally, was Flight 93 shot down?

Griffin and many other conspiracists allege that Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania, was brought down not by the passengers struggling with the hijackers but by a U.S. missile. But we know from cell phone conversations that passengers on board that plane planned on confronting the hijackers. And, as Debunking 9/11 Myths notes, "a Cleveland air traffic controller assigned to Flight 93 heard signs of a struggle in the cockpit, followed shortly by screaming."

Tapes of the conversations at the northeast regional headquarters for the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) confirm this, as Michael Bronner has shown in his August article for Vanity Fair entitled "9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes." Major Kevin Nasypany was the facility's mission-crew commander that day, and the tapes show him frantically trying to figure what was going on and whether he had orders to shoot Flight 93 down.

"Gimme the call sign," he says at 10:07. "Gimme the whole nine yards. . . . Let's get some info, real quick. They got a bomb?"

But, as Bronner reports, by then "everyone on board is already dead. Following the passengers' counterattack, the plane crashed in a field in Pennsylvania at 10:03 a.m."

Then this explains why debris was strewn over a five mile distance. IMPACT did it. unsure.gif

QUOTE


At bottom, the 9/11 conspiracy theories are profoundly irrational and unscientific. It is more than passing strange that progressives, who so revere science on such issues as tobacco, stem cells, evolution, and global warming, are so willing to abandon science and give in to fantasy on the subject of 9/11.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a cul-de-sac. They lead nowhere. And they aren't necessary to prove the venality of the Bush Administration. There's plenty of that proof lying around. We don't need to make it up.

Actually the reason why there are so many different versions and ideas about 9/11 is because the Government has purposely with held information. When a Government with holds information, they look to their people as if they are hiding something. When agencies of the Government come forward years later and admit that they purposefully mislead the investigation, it makes the Government appear to be obstructing and covering up something. And when certain key players intentionally lie about what they knew and when they knew what they knew, on it's face alone, the Government looks to be hiding the truth about what happened.

For a Government so concerned about preying into the daily lives of it's citizens and in turn hides evidence from investigations, it SCREAMS cover up.

This is only natural of the people to distrust a government that has shown it's capabilities to lie, to obfuscate, misdirect, obscure, evade, and cover up. ONLY NATURAL.

What's even more disturbing is not which theory is right or wrong, but why journalists refuse to question a government that participates in this type of behavior. That journalists promote the very notion that an obedient people are patriots and those that question are loonies. After all, don't we in this society lock loonies up?



I don't know what the truth really is but I do know that our Government knows more that what they are letting on to. I also know that the MSM and many journalists pretend that alls well when they ignore obvious questionable facts and when certain events happen to shed light on these glaring inconsistencies, the MSM and journalists simply shrug and suggest, "OH WELL" what can be done now. They refuse to participate in holding those that lie, mislead, obfuscate and obstruct accountable and so it creates a misconception among the people that lying, obstructing, deceit, and cover ups are expected from their government. And personally, that is treasonous to the people. To the nation. and does their profession a great injustice.

Max-1
Also, from a response to that article:

QUOTE
The seven steps of NIST’s collapse initiation sequence that are common to both towers, clarified and summarized as fairly as possible, are as follows.

1. A number of columns were severed by aircraft impact
2. Loads were redistributed to the remaining columns
3. Fireproofing was “widely dislodged”
4. Columns and floor assemblies were softened by high temperatures
5. Softened floor assemblies began to sag
6. Sagging floors pulled the exterior columns inward, causing columns to buckle
7. Instability spread around the exterior of the building

The first two steps of this sequence are not surprising, although there are assumptions on NIST’s part. At step one, we can take their word for it that approximately 15% of the columns were severed in each building by aircraft impact. Note that this is quite low compared to original design claims reported in the mid-sixties by the Engineering News-Record that suggested the towers could lose more than 25% of their columns without having any problems. As for the second step, NIST says the loads actually decreased on some columns and increased slightly for others. Again, no problem here considering similar design claims that the exterior columns could withstand 2000% increases in live load.

With step three we quickly get to the core of NIST’s collapse initiation argument. Their report states that “The WTC towers likely would not have collapsed under the combined effects of aircraft impact damage and the extensive, multi-floor fires if the thermal insulation had not been widely dislodged or had been only minimally dislodged by aircraft impact.” Considering that NIST so clearly depends on extensive fireproofing loss, you would think they would have spent a great deal of their time and money investigating this effect and communicating the details.

But no, one had to be very patient and focused to find what evidence NIST provided for this crucial claim. Their test for fireproofing loss, never inserted in the draft reports, involved shooting a total of fifteen rounds from a shotgun at non-representative samples in a plywood box. Flat steel plates were used instead of column samples, and no floor deck samples were tested at all. In the end, they slid the results into a 12 page appendix to the final report.

Unfortunately, it’s not hard to see that these tests actually disproved their findings. One reason is that there is no evidence that a Boeing 767 could transform into any number of shotgun blasts. Nearly 100,000 blasts would be needed based on NIST’s own damage estimates, and these would have to be directed in a very symmetrical fashion to strip the columns and floors from all sides. However, it is much more likely that the aircraft debris was a distribution of sizes from very large chunks to a few smaller ones, and that it was directed asymmetrically. Also, there is no indication that fireproofing was stripped from beneath the aluminum cladding on the exterior columns, but in subsequent steps of their story, NIST depends on this.

To put NIST’s pivotal claim to rest, there was simply no energy available to cause fireproofing loss. Previous calculations by engineers at MIT had shown that all the kinetic energy from the aircraft was consumed in breaking columns, crushing the floors and destroying the aircraft itself. But NIST’s tests indicate that 1 MJ of energy was needed per square meter of surface area to shear the fireproofing off. For the areas in question, more than 6,000 square meters of column, floor deck and floor joist surface, the extra energy needed would be several times more than the entire amount of kinetic energy available to begin with.

We could stop there, and realize that NIST’s story is not plausible. But to emphasize just how implausible it is, let’s go on to step four.

On to step four, where high temperatures softened the columns and floors. NIST did tests for this as well. The first test, that examined paint deformation on steel samples chosen specifically from the fire zones, showed that less than 2% of the samples had seen temperatures above 250 C. Another test gave the one-sided result that no samples saw temperatures above 600 C. The obvious problem here is that steel does not soften or lose significant strength at the low temperatures indicated, yet NIST’s story depends on the softening or weakening of vast quantities of steel in both core and exterior columns, floor decks and floor joists. The less obvious problem is that structural steel components are chosen for use in buildings based in part on fire resistance tests. According to Underwriters Laboratories’ (UL’s) Chief Executive Officer, tests on steel components for the WTC buildings were performed by UL nearly forty years ago, and the results verified conformance to the New York City code requirements for multiple hours of fire resistance at much higher temperatures.

An important thing to realize here is the duration of the WTC fires. Many have noted that these fires were not very intense, because the black smoke indicated Oxygen starved fires that would have produced relatively little heat. But according to NIST, the fires in the failure zones did not last very long either. NIST points to the east wall of WTC 2 as the failure zone, and say that the fires reached this area within 10 to 20 minutes of aircraft impact. NIST goes on to say that it took 50 to 60 minutes for the fires to migrate around the core of the building in WTC 1. These official estimates indicate that the fires in the failure zones of the towers lasted for only about 45 minutes in each case, much less than the 3 or 4 hours of fire resistance required by the NYC code.

How about step five? As part of NIST’s investigation, Underwriters Laboratories performed additional tests to establish the fire resistance of models of the WTC floor assemblies. The results were that the floor assembly models not only didn’t collapse, invalidating the long-standing “Pancake Theory”, but the floors barely sagged – only about 3 inches, despite the use of double the known floor load and two hours of fire exposure (i.e. over twice the duration of fires known to have existed in the failure zones). NIST then added this 3 inch sag to their computer model, and by way of an unknown transformation, it suddenly became 42 inches of extreme sagging.

At this point it is difficult to continue, but since our own futures depend on this story, we must. Step six says that sagging floors pulled exterior columns inward. To support this, NIST plugged at least nine different scenarios into their computer, with just one of these showing inward bowing in their virtual reality. To do this, they had to take a computer mock-up of a nine story high by nine column wide wall section, remove it from it’s web of support by “disconnection”, strip off ALL the fireproofing, expose this section to twice the known fire time yet again (90 minutes), and then apply some unspecified, utterly miraculous inward pull. Without a doubt, one rarely finds more shameful and obvious examples of the distortion of science.

How about NIST’s last collapse initiation step (seven)? They don’t say much here except that “instability spread” around the entire building. Since the buildings came down uniformly into their own footprints, and did so in approximately 10 seconds, there was precious little time for instability spread. If we give them half a second to accomplish this, the instability would have had to move at nearly twice the speed of sound. That is, of course, not realistic.

After providing a clearly false collapse initiation sequence, NIST says “global collapse ensued”.

Nice prediction.


Max-1
South face of WTC #7 before collapse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IzIVdW0_do



Explosion caught on tape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I





Rousseau
I've blown shit up (or down...) before, and have been involved with people in controlled demolition, so the very first seconds of collapse said "Controlled Demolition" to me. For all three towers.
Otherwise the official explication and the "Popular Propaganda" article bring up some interesting questions ; Does this mean all US skyscrapers are poorly made and dangerous pieces of unstable and poorly fire-proofed shit, unable to stand up to their initial design brief of resisting a B52 or 737 plowing into the side of them, as all skyscrapers are ? ( B-25 Mitchel plowed into the 78th floor of the Empire State in 1945, and I think that that building is still standing...and that was a building built BEFORE heavier and faster jet aircraft and the subsequent beefing-up of building standards...) or does it mean that all US skyscrapers are pre-wired for demolition ? (just don't piss off the janitor if he knows where the "button" is...) blink.gif

As for the mobile-phone communication from planes at 30000 feet and 700 kmph, I want to know who the operator was, because I need a phone company that doesn't loose the signal when I go through a freeway underpass, or pass through a forest, or open my fridge door... clap.gif

The Pentagon is a bit of a doozy though. An "incapable and incompetent" pilot defeats the entire NORAD, flings his plane around the sky like a Top-Gun pilot, making seasoned pilots green with envy, skims across the lawn of the Pentagon, without disturbing shit in his flight path, and smacks perfectly squarely into the emptiest bit of the Pentagon, as it is being renovated (guess "Google Earth" didn't prepare him for that...).
Yup. I believe that. Like I believe that a 757 can just vapourise, but without burning furniture and fittings in the few offices that were finished (I think the bible shown near the entry hole that didn't get burnt was actually a Work of God...)

Where did this guy learn to fly ? I wanna go there and learn to fly like that too !!! (maybe not the crashing into empty buildings bit though...) and I wanna know who taught him to overpower with such decadent ease a plane piloted by and full of ex or currently serving US naval, military or intelligence staff, because either they didn't fight, or his instructor granted him god-like "fists of death" powers !!

Gee, I hope that there are only a few of these "AYRAB FANATICS WHO HATE OUR FREEDOMS tm Bushco" because if there are more than forty, you guys may as well surrender now... wink.gif
Southpaw
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Tuesday, 17 October 2006, 11:16 am) [snapback]75953[/snapback]

And being pro-conspiracy in all it's various degrees and forms, is nothing more than opinions.
Why should one be more valid than another, because you happen to agree with it?
I might point out, that Mr Bush is also not very inclined to change his mind very often,
no matter how logical the "opinion".


My purpose for posting a response to "Mr. Real" was to expose , what I feel is an agenda to stir the pot.

Very first post and he feels the need to call out those who he does not agree with as "Tin foil hat wearers".
As old and used as that cliche is, it is still an insult to the intelligence of anyone who dares to keep an open mind on the subject.
Realistic
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Sunday, 15 October 2006, 6:51 pm) [snapback]75787[/snapback]

Good points there realistic, but that does not preclude a passive conspiracy.
Though they could not have known exactly what would be happening, they could well have known that something was going to happen, and did nothing to prevent it. We now know that Condi was given warning, and isn't it interesting that the one person who should remember, says she can't?

That would be a passive conspiracy.
It's much easier to hide something you didn't do than to hide something you did.
Welcome to the Forum Real.



There was inteligence reporting that something was going on. Many reports, many possibilities. One of them came true. Pre 9/11, the government was lax, through a few admins. Now, when the government acts, many of the same people who support some kind of conspiracy re:9/11 will accuse them of fear mongering.

Thanks for the reasonable response.
Time2WakeUp
All truth passes through three stages. First it is scoffed at and ridiculed, Second it is violently opposed, then thirdly, it is accepted as self evident"-Arthur Schopenhauer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Besides [b]Dick Cheney
, (the true power in the White House), and Rummy, who are Zionist globalist puppets, the following is the list of the Zionists who held key positions in the Pentagon and were tied into the PNAC. This list of Zionists are the evil that actually pulled off 9-11 right under your noses. The list is incomplete:


Dov Zakheim- "Dual citizen" Deputy Comptroller of the Pentagon, who worked on the governments remote controlled flight program prior to his tenure at the Pentagon. Under Mr. Zakheim, the Pentagon was found to be missing $2.3 trillion as was announced by Rummy the day before 9-11. Founding member of PNAC

Paul Wolfowitz- Just rewarded with the Presidency of the World Bank for his role in 9-11. Founding member of the PNAC. Wolfie created the "Wolfowitz Doctrine" which is the guideline for the "planned" war in the Middle East.

Douglas Feith- Former Pentagon policy chief, member of the PNAC

Richard Perle- Known as the "Prince of Darkness" he was Foreign Policy Advisor at the Pentagon on 9-11 and is a founding member of the PNAC

Richard Armitage- Deputy Secretary of State, helped create the ISI (Pakistani CIA), and a member of the PNAC

Kenneth Adelman a Reagan administration arms-control official who is close to Vice President Cheney, PNAC member.

Henry Kissinger- Kissinger needs no introduction. Here is a mild take on him:
Kissinger was National Security Advisor to Nixon (another Zionist "dual-citizen") who is extremely well connected. He has been accused of 4 counts of war crimes. His tentacles reach everywhere.

Lewis "Scooter" Libby- Or, Irv Lewis "Scooter" Libby - White House adviser (yes another Jewish "advisor"), pushed Cheney to publicly argue that Saddam Hussein had ties to al Qaeda and 9/11. Member of the PNAC

David Wurmser- Director of the Middle East program at the American Enterprise Institute, served as Pentagon "consultant." Coordinated with the PNAC Wurmser created a "hidden intelligence unit", the Counter Terrorism Evaluation Group, under Feith at the Pentagon.

Eliot Abrahms-PNACer, criminal mastermind and National Security Adviser on 9-11. Another dual citizen who went from Iran-Contra to Bush's democracy czar.

Eliot Cohen--Member of the Defense Policy Board, Member of the PNAC, founding member Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, Director of the School of Advanced International Studies, and known as, âthe most influential neocon in academe.â,

Daniel Pipes- the son of notorious anti-Soviet crusader Richard Pipes says the only path to Middle East peace will come through a "total Israeli military victory." Member of the PNAC.

Stephen Bryen-TRAITOR to the USA, FBI agents discovered that Bryen met regularly with Zvi Rafiah, a counselor at the Israeli Embassy, two or three times a week. Bryen was suspected by the Defense Intelligence Angency (DIA) of turning over classified Pentagon records to Israel in the late 70's. He later founded the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs(JINSA).

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9-11 was pulled off by the globalist zionists using the PNAC through Dick Cheney.


Within a month after the 9-11 attacks and in his only "proven" authentic statement by the BBC or anyone else for that matter, Bin Laden stated:


"I was not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States nor did I have knowledge of the attacks. There exists a government within a government within the United states, that secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks, The American system is totally in control of the Jews, who's first priority is Israel, not the United States"- [b]Osama bin Laden BBC News, (less than a month after the attacks)

It should be noted that bin Laden [b]was not
on the FBI's official website being WANTED for the WTC attack on 9-11. This should make all your heads spin!




Certain criteria had to be in fulfilled for 9-11 to be pulled off:



1.) GW Bush had to be "installed" into the Presidency. It only took Florida (controlled by Jeb Bush) to do so.

2.) The WTC had to be in Silversteins hands. (He bought it and insured it with a "terror" clause)

3.) The Defense forces had to be controlled by the perps

4.) Security at the airports had to be covered (and they were by Marvin Bush, W's brother)

5.) The Defense Policy Board needed to be commandeered.


The Pentagons Defense Policy Board, you know, the people that make the decisions of our Military, was under almost complete Zionist control on 9-11. The people that handled the sale of the World Trade Center complex to Larry Silverstein (Zionist)in July 2001, were ALL Zionists. The PNAC were 90% Zionists. Marvin Bush handled the security for the WTC and Dulles Airport on 9-11. Jeb Bush handled the election ensuring a Bush win in Florida. The first people arrested on 9-11 were Zionists (the Dancing Jews) dressed as Arabs. They had a van, boxcutters, cameras and videos of them celebrating on 9-11 with the Twin Towers behind them while they flicked lighters like they were at a rock concert. Chertoff (a Zionist) had them deported. There were also Israeli "art students" that happened to be in all the same locations as the alleged hijackers. Not to mention the "fly by night" Israeli moving companys in and around Manhatten at the time that packed up and moved out to Israel just after 9-11. Furthermore, Odigo, the company that warned at least two people in the towers of the attacks, should be questioned.

Dov Zakheim (a Zionist and the master of 9-11) was Deputy Comptroller of the Pentagon on 9-11. It should be noted that he worked for the government on Remote Controlled Flight for several years previous to that.

It should also be noted that on 9-10-01 the day before 9-11, Donald Rumsfeld announced that $2.3 trillion dollars (yes thats TRILLION with a "T") was missing from the Pentagon.



Those are the facts. I have provided the information which can be verified by anyone willing to look into the truth.

In other words, if you really love your country, do your research!


WHO GAINED?
sky of mind
QUOTE(Time2WakeUp @ Tuesday, 14 November 2006, 7:12 pm) [snapback]79610[/snapback]

All truth passes through three stages. First it is scoffed at and ridiculed, Second it is violently opposed, then thirdly, it is accepted as self evident"-Arthur Schopenhauer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Besides [b]Dick Cheney
, (the true power in the White House), and Rummy, who are Zionist globalist puppets, the following is the list of the Zionists who held key positions in the Pentagon and were tied into the PNAC. This list of Zionists are the evil that actually pulled off 9-11 right under your noses. The list is incomplete:
Dov Zakheim- "Dual citizen" Deputy Comptroller of the Pentagon, who worked on the governments remote controlled flight program prior to his tenure at the Pentagon. Under Mr. Zakheim, the Pentagon was found to be missing $2.3 trillion as was announced by Rummy the day before 9-11. Founding member of PNAC

Paul Wolfowitz- Just rewarded with the Presidency of the World Bank for his role in 9-11. Founding member of the PNAC. Wolfie created the "Wolfowitz Doctrine" which is the guideline for the "planned" war in the Middle East.

Douglas Feith- Former Pentagon policy chief, member of the PNAC

Richard Perle- Known as the "Prince of Darkness" he was Foreign Policy Advisor at the Pentagon on 9-11 and is a founding member of the PNAC

Richard Armitage- Deputy Secretary of State, helped create the ISI (Pakistani CIA), and a member of the PNAC

Kenneth Adelman a Reagan administration arms-control official who is close to Vice President Cheney, PNAC member.

Henry Kissinger- Kissinger needs no introduction. Here is a mild take on him:
Kissinger was National Security Advisor to Nixon (another Zionist "dual-citizen") who is extremely well connected. He has been accused of 4 counts of war crimes. His tentacles reach everywhere.

I still find it amusing, the supposed conspiracy theorist connection between Dr Strangelove and Jewish Ultra Radicals.

Lewis "Scooter" Libby- Or, Irv Lewis "Scooter" Libby - White House adviser (yes another Jewish "advisor"), pushed Cheney to publicly argue that Saddam Hussein had ties to al Qaeda and 9/11. Member of the PNAC

David Wurmser- Director of the Middle East program at the American Enterprise Institute, served as Pentagon "consultant." Coordinated with the PNAC Wurmser created a "hidden intelligence unit", the Counter Terrorism Evaluation Group, under Feith at the Pentagon.

Eliot Abrahms-PNACer, criminal mastermind and National Security Adviser on 9-11. Another dual citizen who went from Iran-Contra to Bush's democracy czar.

Eliot Cohen--Member of the Defense Policy Board, Member of the PNAC, founding member Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, Director of the School of Advanced International Studies, and known as, âthe most influential neocon in academe.â,

Daniel Pipes- the son of notorious anti-Soviet crusader Richard Pipes says the only path to Middle East peace will come through a "total Israeli military victory." Member of the PNAC.

Stephen Bryen-TRAITOR to the USA, FBI agents discovered that Bryen met regularly with Zvi Rafiah, a counselor at the Israeli Embassy, two or three times a week. Bryen was suspected by the Defense Intelligence Angency (DIA) of turning over classified Pentagon records to Israel in the late 70's. He later founded the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs(JINSA).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9-11 was pulled off by the globalist zionists using the PNAC through Dick Cheney.
Within a month after the 9-11 attacks and in his only "proven" authentic statement by the BBC or anyone else for that matter, Bin Laden stated:
"I was not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States nor did I have knowledge of the attacks. There exists a government within a government within the United states, that secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks, The American system is totally in control of the Jews, who's first priority is Israel, not the United States"- [b]Osama bin Laden BBC News, (less than a month after the attacks)

It should be noted that bin Laden [b]was not
on the FBI's official website being WANTED for the WTC attack on 9-11. This should make all your heads spin!
Certain criteria had to be in fulfilled for 9-11 to be pulled off:
1.) GW Bush had to be "installed" into the Presidency. It only took Florida (controlled by Jeb Bush) to do so.

2.) The WTC had to be in Silversteins hands. (He bought it and insured it with a "terror" clause)

3.) The Defense forces had to be controlled by the perps

4.) Security at the airports had to be covered (and they were by Marvin Bush, W's brother)

5.) The Defense Policy Board needed to be commandeered.
The Pentagons Defense Policy Board, you know, the people that make the decisions of our Military, was under almost complete Zionist control on 9-11. The people that handled the sale of the World Trade Center complex to Larry Silverstein (Zionist)in July 2001, were ALL Zionists. The PNAC were 90% Zionists. Marvin Bush handled the security for the WTC and Dulles Airport on 9-11. Jeb Bush handled the election ensuring a Bush win in Florida. The first people arrested on 9-11 were Zionists (the Dancing Jews) dressed as Arabs. They had a van, boxcutters, cameras and videos of them celebrating on 9-11 with the Twin Towers behind them while they flicked lighters like they were at a rock concert. Chertoff (a Zionist) had them deported. There were also Israeli "art students" that happened to be in all the same locations as the alleged hijackers. Not to mention the "fly by night" Israeli moving companys in and around Manhatten at the time that packed up and moved out to Israel just after 9-11. Furthermore, Odigo, the company that warned at least two people in the towers of the attacks, should be questioned.

Dov Zakheim (a Zionist and the master of 9-11) was Deputy Comptroller of the Pentagon on 9-11. It should be noted that he worked for the government on Remote Controlled Flight for several years previous to that.

It should also be noted that on 9-10-01 the day before 9-11, Donald Rumsfeld announced that $2.3 trillion dollars (yes thats TRILLION with a "T") was missing from the Pentagon.

Assuming your statement here is true, and I have no reason at this point to suspect it's not, considering that you are saying they knew and planned 9-11, why in hell would Rummy announce the missing 2.3 trillion? If they had planned their pearl harbor, why not just let the historic events bury the fact. And should it be brought up some day later, then simply claim it got lost in the events of the moment.

Those are the facts. I have provided the information which can be verified by anyone willing to look into the truth.

In other words, if you really love your country, do your research!
WHO GAINED?


Over all, your rant here comes dangerously close to croissing the line into anti-semetism. I doubt you think that it is, and it's so close it might not be. But when I here someone rail at length aganst "the Jews" that's my reaction.

That and the fact that this whole thing is filled with finger pointing, and almost zero substantive facts or anything to back up the claims. It;s almost entirely observations taken in a very specific context. So specific I worry about anti-semitism.

To make the claim that I simply need to "wise up and get the facts" doesn't help in the slightest. The assumption that because I must not be as capable, because I might not agree, is a failed stance.



If you're going to make exceptional claims, you must provide exceptional proof.


Time2WakeUp
I am NOT an anti-Semite, however I am anti-Zionist. I don't like any "dual citizens" with allegiances to any other foreign nation controlling our foreign policy. The list I have provided is a very partial list. These individuals began in 1997 to steer us into the Iraq war. This can be seen on the PNAC website. With the past election, their are now MORE Israeli biased individuals in position to aid Israel.

If it were Palestinains, how would you feel about that?


George Washington warned against entangling foreign alliances. He was right!
Southpaw
By definition, or at least characterization, Zionists need not be Semites. The most extreme Zionist has no love for the Semites. They could easily be pawns for the cause. To be a Jew would seem to be an affiliation by religious philosophy. To be a Zionist would seem to be an affiliation by political philosophy. Some folks can't seem to draw the line of distinction.
sky of mind
QUOTE(Southpaw @ Wednesday, 15 November 2006, 9:33 am) [snapback]79648[/snapback]

By definition, or at least characterization, Zionists need not be Semites. The most extreme Zionist has no love for the Semites. They could easily be pawns for the cause. To be a Jew would seem to be an affiliation by religious philosophy. To be a Zionist would seem to be an affiliation by political philosophy. Some folks can't seem to draw the line of distinction.




This is why, exactly why I dfidn't make any accusations, but instead pointed out the slippery slope.
Other than the Zionist angle, it's still not a very substantive post.
It's more about personal suspicions, and to me without substantive proof, that's dangerous.
Time2WakeUp
QUOTE(Southpaw @ Wednesday, 15 November 2006, 11:33 am) [snapback]79648[/snapback]

By definition, or at least characterization, Zionists need not be Semites. The most extreme Zionist has no love for the Semites. They could easily be pawns for the cause. To be a Jew would seem to be an affiliation by religious philosophy. To be a Zionist would seem to be an affiliation by political philosophy. Some folks can't seem to draw the line of distinction.



Look into them all, my facts are correct. They can all be corroborated.

No group of individuals from ANY country should be running our foreign policy. Only 2% of the US population is "Jewish." By contrast over 30% are black. You can count the black Congressmen with one hand, yet the Jewish Senators, Congressmen, and "advisors" are too many to list. They are dual class citizens with loyalties to Israel. This is not anti-Semitism, it is fact!
Look at how many are in the PNAC.
Time2WakeUp
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Wednesday, 15 November 2006, 12:03 pm) [snapback]79649[/snapback]

This is why, exactly why I dfidn't make any accusations, but instead pointed out the slippery slope.
Other than the Zionist angle, it's still not a very substantive post.
It's more about personal suspicions, and to me without substantive proof, that's dangerous.


Heres another viewpoint:

November 15, 2006



THE HIGHJACKING OF A NATION



Part 1: The Foreign Agent Factor



By Sibel Edmonds







In his farewell address in 1796, George Washington warned that America must be constantly awake against “the insidious wiles of foreign influence…since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government.”



Today, foreign influence, that most baneful foe of our republican government, has its tentacles entrenched in almost all major decision making and policy producing bodies of the U.S. government machine. It does so not secretly, since its self-serving activities are advocated and legitimized by highly positioned parties that reap the benefits that come in the form of financial gain and positions of power.



Foreign governments and foreign-owned private interests have long sought to influence U.S. public policy. Several have accomplished this goal; those who are able and willing to pay what it takes. Those who buy themselves a few strategic middlemen, commonly known as pimps, while in DC circles referred to as foreign registered agents and lobbyists, who facilitate and bring about desired transactions. These successful foreign entities have mastered the art of ‘covering all the bases’ when it comes to buying influence in Washington DC. They have the required recipe down pat: get yourself a few ‘Dime a Dozen Generals,’ bid high in the ‘former statesmen lobby auction’, and put in your pocket one or two ‘ex-congressmen turned lobbyists’ who know the ropes when it comes to pocketing a few dozen who still serve.



The most important facet of this influence to consider is what happens when the active and powerful foreign entities’ objectives are in direct conflict with our nation’s objectives and its interests and security; and when this is the case, who pays the ultimate price and how. There is no need for assumptions of hypothetical situations to answer these questions, since throughout recent history we have repeatedly faced the dire consequences of the highjacking of our foreign and domestic policies by these so-called foreign agents of foreign influence.



Let’s illustrate this with the most important recent case, the catastrophe endured by our people; the September Eleven terrorist attacks. Let’s observe how certain foreign interests, combined with their U.S. agents and benefactors, overrode the interests and security of the entire nation; how thousands of victims and their loved ones were kicked aside to serve the interests of a few; foreign influence and its agents.





Senator Graham’s Revelation

It has been established that two of the 9/11 hijackers had a support network in the U.S. that included agents of the Saudi government, and that the Bush administration and the FBI blocked a congressional investigation into that relationship.



In his book, "Intelligence Matters," Senator Bob Graham made clear that some details of that financial support from Saudi Arabia were in the 27 pages of the congressional inquiry's final report that were blocked from release by the administration, despite the pleas of leaders of both parties in the House and Senate intelligence committees.



Here is an excerpt from Senator Graham’s statement from the July 24, 2003 congressional record on the classified 27 pages of the Congressional Joint Inquiry into 9/11: “The most serious omission, in my view, is part 4 of the report, which is entitled Finding, Discussion and Narrative Regarding Certain Sensitive National Security Matters. Those 27 pages have almost been entirely censured [sic]….The declassified version of this finding tells the American people that our investigation developed information suggesting specific sources of foreign support for some of the September 11 hijackers while they were in the United States. In other words, officials of a foreign government are alleged to have aided and abetted the terrorist attacks on our country on September 11, which took over 3,000 lives.”



In his book Graham reveals, “Our investigators found a CIA memo dated August 2, 2002, whose author concluded that there is incontrovertible evidence that there is support for these terrorists within the Saudi government. On September 11, America was not attacked by a nation-state, but we had just discovered that the attackers were actively supported by one, and that state was our supposed friend and ally Saudi Arabia.” He then cites another case, “We had discovered an FBI asset who had a close relationship with two of the terrorists; a terrorist support network that went through the Saudi Embassy; and a funding network that went through the Saudi Royal family.”



The most explosive revelation in Graham’s book is the following statement with regard to the administration’s attitude on page 216: “It was as if the President’s loyalty lay more with Saudi Arabia than with America’s safety.” Further, he states that he asked the FBI to undertake a review of the Riggs Bank records on the terrorists’ money trail, to look at other Saudi companies with ties to al-Qaeda, to plan for monitoring suspect Saudi interests in the United States; however, Graham adds: “To my knowledge, none of these investigations have been completed…Nor do we know anything else about what I believe to be a state-sponsored terrorist support network that still exists, largely undamaged, within the United States.”



What Graham is trying to establish in his book and previous public statements in this regard, and doing so under state imposed ‘secrecy and classification’, is that the classification and cover up of those 27 pages is not about protecting ‘U.S. national security, methods of intelligence collection, or ongoing investigations,’ but to protect certain U.S. allies. Meaning, our government put the interests of certain foreign nations and their U.S. beneficiaries far above its own people and their interests. While Saudi Arabia has been specifically pointed to by Graham, other countries involved have yet to be identified.



In covering up Saudi Arabia’s direct role in supporting Al Qaeda, the 9/11 Commission goes even a few steps further than the congress and the Executive Branch. The report claims "there is no convincing evidence that any government financially supported al-Qaeda before 9/11." Their report ignores all the information provided by government officials to Congress, as well as volumes of published reports and investigations by other nations, regarding Muslim and Arab regimes that have supported al Qaeda. It completely disregards the terrorist lists of the Treasury and State Departments, which have catalogued the Saudi government's decades of support for Bin Laden and al-Qaeda.



Why in the world would the United States government go so far to protect Saudi Arabia in the face of what itself declares to be the biggest security threat facing our nation and the world today?



Why is the United States willing to set aside its own security and interests in order to advance the interests of another state?



How can a government that’s been intent upon using the terrorist attacks to carry out many unjustifiable atrocities, prevent bringing to justice those who’ve been established as being directly responsible for it?



More importantly, how is this done in a nation that prides itself as one that operates under governance of the people, by the people, for the people?



How did our government bodies, those involved in drafting and implementing our nation’s policies, evolve into this foreign influence-peddling operation?



In order to answer these questions one must first establish who stands to lose and who stands to gain by protecting Saudi Arabia from being exposed and facing consequences of its involvement in terrorist networks activities. In addition to identifying the nations in question, we must identify the interests as well as the actors; their agents. Let’s look at Saudi Arabia as one of the successful foreign nations that have mastered the art of ‘covering all the bases’ when it comes to buying and peddling influence in Washington DC, and identify its hired ‘agents’ and ‘agents by default.’



Foreign Agents by Default

Although when it comes to our complex diplomatic threading with Saudi Arabia the easiest answer appears to be the ‘oil factor,’ upon further inspection the Saudi’s influence and role extends into other areas, such as the Military Industrial Complex and the too familiar Lobbying Games.



According to the report published by the Federation of American Scientists (FAS), Saudi Arabia is America’s top customer. Since 1990 the U.S. government, through the Pentagon’s arms export program, has arranged for the delivery of more than $39.6 billion in foreign military sales to Saudi Arabia, and an additional $394 million worth of arms were delivered to the Saudi regime through the State Department’s direct commercial sales program. Oil rich Saudi Arabia is a cash-paying customer; a compulsive buyer of our weaponry. The list of U.S. sellers includes almost all the major players such as Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, and Boeing.



The report by FAS establishes that despite the show of U.S. support demonstrated by this astounding quantity of arms sales, Saudi Arabia’s human rights record is extremely poor; see the U.S. State Department’s 2000 Human Rights Report. Saudi Arabia’s position as a strategic Gulf ally has blinded U.S. officials into approving a level and quality of arms exports that should never have been allowed to a non-democratic country with such a poor human rights record.



Further, there are indications of Saudi’s active role as a player in the nuclear black-market. According to Mohammed Khilewi, first secretary at the Saudi mission to the United Nations until July 1994, the Saudis have sought a bomb since 1975; they sought to buy nuclear reactors from China, supported Pakistan's nuclear program, and contributed $5 billion to Iraq's nuclear weapons program between 1985 and 1990. While the U.S. government vocally opposes the development or procurement of ballistic missiles by non-allies, it has been very quiet in Saudi Arabia’s case, considering the fact that it possesses the longest-range ballistic missiles of any developing country.



The Military Industrial Complex certainly seems to be a winner in having the congressional report pertaining to the Saudi government’s role in supporting the 9/11 terrorist activities being classified. The exposure would have meant grounds for U.S. sanctions and retributions; it would have risked the loss of billions of dollars in revenue from its ‘top customer.’ These companies don’t even have to officially register as foreign agents; after all, their strong loyalty and unbreakable bond with foreign elements exists by default; it is called mutual benefit. They are ‘Foreign Agents by Default.’



This holds true for other parties and players involved within the MIC network; the contractors and the investors. Let’s look at one of these famous and influential players; another foreign agent even if only by default; a man who defended the Saudis against a lawsuit brought by the 9/11 victims’ family members; a man who happens to be the senior counsel for the Carlyle Group, which invests heavily in defense companies and is the nation's 10th largest defense contractor with ties to the Saudi Royal Family, Enron, Global Crossing, among others; James Baker; Papa Bush’s Secretary of State. On the morning of September 11th, 2001, Baker was reportedly at a Carlyle investor conference with members of the Bin Laden family in the Ritz Carlton in Washington DC, while Bush Sr. was on the payroll of the Carlyle group.



The Carlyle Group, a Washington, DC based private equity firm that employs numerous former high-ranking government officials with ties to both political parties, was the ninth largest Pentagon contractor between 1998 and 2003, an ongoing Center for Public Integrity investigation into Department of Defense contracts found. According to this report, overall, six private investment firms, including Carlyle, received nearly $14 billion in Pentagon deals between 1998 and 2003. Considering the fact that Saudi Arabia is the top buyer of the U.S. weapons industry, Carlyle’s investment and its stake, and of course Jimmy Baker’s far reaching influence within the Pentagon and congress, everything seems to come together and fit perfectly to shield this foreign interest no matter the price to be paid by the American public.



The political action committees (PACs) of the biggest defense companies have given $14.2 million directly to federal candidates since Clinton's first presidential bid, according to the Center for Responsive Politics (CRP). In 1997 alone the defense industry spent $49.5 million to lobby the nation's decision-makers.



Between 1998 and 2004, for the six-year period, Boeing Company spent more than $57 million in lobbying. For the same period of time, Lockheed Martin poured over $55 million into lobbying activities. Northrop Grumman exceeded both by investing $83 million in lobbying, and based on a report issued by POGO, it contributed over $4 million to individuals and PACs.



With ‘dime a dozen’ generals on their boards of directors, numerous high-powered ex congressmen and senators at their disposal in the ‘K Street Lobby Quarter,’ tens of millions of dollars in campaign donations, and billions of dollars at stake, the Military Industrial Complex surely had all the incentives to act just as foreign agents would, and fight for their highly valued client; the Saudi Government. They appear to have had all the reasons to ensure that the report would not see the light of the day; no matter what the effect on the country, its security, and its interests.



K Street Lobby Quarter

The fact that Saudi Arabia pours large sums into lobbying firms and public relations companies with close ties to congress does not come as a big surprise. The FARA database under the DOJ website lists Qorvis Communications as one of Saudi Arabia’s registered foreign agents. In 2003, for only a six months period, Qorvis received more than $11 million from the Saudi government. Another firm, Loeffler Tuggey Pauerstein Rosenthal LLP, another registered foreign agent, received more than $840,000 for the same six-month period, and the list goes on. Just for this six month period the government of Saudi Arabia paid a total of more than $14 million to 13 lobbying and public relations companies; all registered as foreign agents.



Why do the Saudis spend nearly $20 million per year in lobbying activities in the U.S. via their hired agents? What kind of return on investment are they getting out of the United States Congress?



Let’s take Loeffler’s group and examine its value for the Saudi government, since it was paid over $3 million in three years between 2003 and 2005. The firm was founded by former Republican Congressman Tom Loeffler of Texas. Loeffler served in the Republican Leadership as Deputy Whip, and as Chief Deputy Whip during his third and fourth term. He was a member of the powerful Appropriations Committee, Energy and Commerce Committee and Budget Committee. In the two Bush campaigns for governor, Loeffler, who contributed $141,000, was the largest donor. In 1998, he served as national co-chair of the Republican National Committee's "Team 100" program for donors of $100,000 or more, and afterwards held the same title during George W. Bush's presidential campaign. Loeffler’s generosity extends to the members of congress as well. In 6 years, he has given more than $185,000 to members of congress, 97% of it going to only Republican members. During the same six-year period, Loeffler’s firm received more than $18 million in lobbying fees.



The firm’s managing director happens to be William L. Ball. Ball served as Chief of Staff to Senators John Tower (R-TX) and Herman Talmadge (D-GA). In 1985, he joined the Reagan Administration as Assistant Secretary of State for Legislative Affairs. Later he was assigned to the White House to serve President Reagan as his chief liaison to the Congress. Wallace Henderson is also a Partner; he was Chief Counsel and Chief of Staff to Representative W. J. Tauzin (R-LA), Chief of Staff to U.S. Senator John Breaux (D-LA).



By having foreign agents such as the Loeffler Group, in addition to their foreign agents by default, the MIC, the Saudis seem to have all their bases covered. Former secretaries and deputy secretaries with open access to the current ones, former congressmen and senators who used to be positioned on strategically valuable committees and know the rules of the congressional game, and millions of dollars available to be spent and channeled and re-channeled to various PACs go a long way toward ensuring results. Money counts. Money is needed to bring in votes. Professional skills and discretion are required to get this money to various final destinations. The registered foreign agents, the lobby groups, are geared for this task. The client is happy in the end; so are the foreign agents and the congressional actors.





Other Savvy Nations

Of course, the sanction and legitimization of far reaching foreign influence and strongholds in the U.S., despite the many dire consequences endured by its citizens, is not limited to the government of Saudi Arabia. Numerous well-documented cases can be cited for others such as Turkey, Pakistan, and Israel, to name a few.



I won’t get into the details and history of my own case, where the government invoked the state secrets privilege to gag my case and the congress in order to ‘protect certain sensitive diplomatic relations.’ The country, the foreign influence, in this case was the Republic of Turkey. The U.S. government did so despite the far reaching consequences of burying the facts involved, and disregarded the interests and security of the nation; all to protect a quasi ally engaged in numerous illegitimate activities within the global terrorist networks, nuclear black-market and narcotics activities; an ally who happens to be another compulsive and loyal buyer of the Military Industrial Complex; an ally who happens to be another savvy player in recruiting top U.S. players as its foreign agents and spending million of dollars per year to the lobbying groups headed by many ‘formers.’ Turkey’s agent list includes generals such as Joseph Ralston and Brent Scowcroft, former statesmen such as William Cohen and Marc Grossman, and of course famous ex-congressmen such as Bob Livingston and Stephen Solarz. Turkey too seems to have all its bases covered.



Another well-known and documented case involves Pakistan. Over two decades ago Richard Barlow, an intelligence analyst working for then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney issued a startling report. After reviewing classified information from field agents, he had determined that Pakistan, despite official denials, had built a nuclear bomb. In the March 29, 1993 issue of New Yorker, Seymour Hersh noted that “even as Barlow began his digging, some senior State Department officials were worried that too much investigation would create what Barlow called embarrassment for Pakistan.” Barlow's conclusion was politically inconvenient. A finding that Pakistan possessed a nuclear bomb would have triggered a congressionally mandated cutoff of aid to the country, and it would have killed a $1.4-billion sale of F-16 fighter jets to Islamabad. A few months later a Pentagon official downplayed Pakistan's nuclear capabilities in his testimony to Congress. When Barlow protested to his superiors, he was fired. A few years later, the Executive Branch would slap Barlow with the State Secrets Privilege.



As we all now know, Pakistan provided direct nuclear assistance to Iran and Libya. During the Cold War, the U.S. put up with Pakistani lies and deception about their nuclear activities, it did not enforce its restrictions on Pakistan's nuclear program when it counted, and as a result Pakistan ended up with a U.S.-made nuclear weapons system. Yet again, after 9/11, the Bush administration issued a waiver ending the implementation of almost all sanctions on Pakistan because of the perceived need for Pakistani assistance in the fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban, who ironically were brought to power by direct U.S. support in the 1980s in the first place.



Weiss, in the May-June 2004 issue of the Bulletin states: “We are essentially back where we were with Pakistan in the 1980s. It is apparent that it has engaged in dangerous nuclear mischief with North Korea, Iran, and Libya (and perhaps others), but thus far without consequences to its relationship with the United States because of other, overriding foreign policy considerations--not the Cold War this time, but the war on terrorism.” He continues: “But now there is a major political difference. It was one thing for Pakistan, a country with which the United States has had good relations generally, to follow India and produce the bomb for itself. It is quite another for Pakistan to help two-thirds of the "axis of evil” to get the bomb as well.”



FARA & LDA

An agent of a ‘foreign principal’ is defined as any individual or organization which acts at the order, request, or under the direction or control of a foreign principal, or whose activities are directed by a foreign principal who engages in political activities, or acts in a public relations capacity for a foreign principal, or solicits or dispenses any thing of value within the United States for a foreign principal, or represents the interests of a foreign principal before any agency or official of the U.S. government.



In 1938, in response to the large number of German propaganda agents in the pre-WWII U.S., Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) was established to insure that the American public and its lawmakers know the source of propaganda intended to sway public opinion, policy, and laws. The Act requires every agent of a foreign principal to register with the Department of Justice and file forms outlining its agreements with, income from, and expenditures on behalf of the foreign principal. Any agent testifying before a committee of Congress must furnish the committee with a copy of his most recent registration statement. The agent must keep records of all his activities and permit the Attorney General to inspect them. However, as is the case with many laws, the Act is filled with exemptions and loopholes that allow minimization of, and in some cases complete escape from, warranted scrutiny.



There are a number of exemptions. For example, persons whose activities are of a purely commercial nature or of a religious, academic, and charitable nature are exempt. Any agent who is engaged in lobbying activities and is registered under the Lobbying Disclosure Act (LDA) is exempt. The LDA of 1995 was passed after decades of effort to make the regulation and disclosure of lobbying the federal government more effective. However, LDA also has serious and important loopholes and limitations that can be summed up as: Inadequate Disclosure, Inadequate Enforcement, and Inadequate Regulation of Conduct. The recent congressional scandals make this point very clear.



In addition, neither act deals with an important issue: Conflict of Interest. Many of these agents, with their loyalty to the foreign hand that feeds them, end up being appointed to various positions, commissions and special envoys by our government. Recall Kissinger and his appointment to head the 9/11 Commission, and of course the recent revelation by Woodward on his advisory position to the current White House. Take a look at Jimmy Baker’s current appointment on the Iraq commission. Same goes for the father of all the ‘dime a dozen generals’, Brent Scowcroft, and one of his new protégés, General Joseph Ralston. In short, neither FARA nor LDA creates meaningful oversight, control, or enforcement; neither deals with conflict of interest issues, and neither provides any deterrence or consequences for unethical or illegal conduct.





It used to be congressional ‘pork projects’ and ‘corporate influence’ that raised eyebrows now and then; here and there. Gone are those days. Today the unrestricted and uncontrollable money game and influence peddling tricks within the major decision-making and policy producing bodies of the U.S. government have reached new heights; yet, no raised eyebrows are registered. Sadly, today, a new version of ‘The Manchurian Candidate’ would have to be produced as a documentary.



The other day I received a request to sign on to a petition put forth by a group of 9/11 family members urging the congress to reopen the investigations of 9/11 and declassify the infamous 27-pages which deal with foreign governments, U.S. allies, that provided support for those who carried out the attacks on our nation. My heart goes out to them. I do sympathize with them. I am known to take on similar propositions and methods of activism myself. However, looking at the realities, seeing what it takes to get things done in Washington, realizing how this beast works in the Real Sin City, I would encourage them to look at the root cause, rather than the symptoms. There are only two ways I can see that can bring about what they have been fighting for and what the majority of us desire to see in terms of bringing about Truth, Oversight, and Accountability; Justice.



The family members, and their supporters, us, either have to tackle the major cause; the corruption of our government officials via unrestricted and undisciplined ‘revolving doors’ and ‘foreign influence & lobby’ practices, and push for expedient meaningful reforms by the new ambitious congress, and have them prove to us their worth. Or, they may as well give up their long-held integrity, go bid high for one or two former statesmen, hire a few dime a dozen generals, and buy themselves a couple of ex-congressmen turned lobbyists; that will do the job.

# # # #



Sibel Edmonds is the founder and director of National Security Whistleblowers Coalition (NSWBC). Ms. Edmonds worked as a language specialist for the FBI. During her work with the bureau, she discovered and reported serious acts of security breaches, cover-ups, and intentional blocking of intelligence that had national security implications. After she reported these acts to FBI management, she was retaliated against by the FBI and ultimately fired in March 2002. Since that time, court proceedings on her case have been blocked by the assertion of “State Secret Privilege”; the Congress of the United States has been gagged and prevented from any discussion of her case through retroactive re-classification by the Department of Justice. Ms. Edmonds is fluent in Turkish, Farsi and Azerbaijani; and has a MA in Public Policy and International Commerce from George Mason University, and a BA in Criminal Justice and Psychology from George Washington University. PEN American Center awarded Ms. Edmonds the 2006 PEN/Newman's Own First Amendment Award.





© Copyright 2006, National Security Whistleblowers Coalition. Information in this release may be freely distributed and published provided that all such distributions make appropriate attribution to the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition.
chaos007

Doesn't take a genius to see that our FBI force is working with the enemy to undermine our own way of life, or just out of pure greed you decide. why havent we seen some heads roll at the justice dept. over this? Sending Bin Ladens out of the country on a day when all Americans are grounded? Gee that sounds normal, RIGHHHT? The Al-sauds are a bunch of pedophiles I should know I was in there employment for years, more than ten to be exact, (dam!) They have compromised most of our intel agents by sending 12 year old girls to there hotels in Riyahd then secretly video taping those who take the bait. I wouldn't doubt our own president and vice president have been compromised in that same fashion, hence the almost blind waivering of any common sense regarding that despot nation!! Hey wasn't it 12 saudi's who bombed our nation on 9/11? so why are we in Iraq again? Oh ya, tactical diversion comes pinging up on the radar of virtue.
sky of mind
oops
sky of mind
Welcome to the forum Chaos,




do you have any source linkage or other material to back up any of these claims? Can you tell us, other than your observations, is there anything to back up your claims?

Exceptional accusations require exceptional proof.


If not, then this is your opinion.
Gadzooks!
Poot! Run of the mill proof would do.
sky of mind
QUOTE(Gadzooks! @ Sunday, 26 November 2006, 11:17 am) [snapback]80739[/snapback]

Poot! Run of the mill proof would do.




Sorry, but I just gotta post this, even if this does officially mean I'm an ass hole.



QUOTE
I also believe there is a conspiracy plot to cover-up the black ops group hiding the secret cabal involved in the concealment of the whitewashed documents that reveal a high-level false flag junta camouflaging the real identity of the underground front group for the real perpetrators of the theft of many of the code names for the enshrouded backdoor operation that caused the failed overthrow of the original plotters.

I have proof.
I read it on a website tinfoilhat.gif




hand.gif OK, I feel all better now liar.gif



Rousseau
Thats an interesting post, Time to wake up, thanks. smile.gif

Welcome to the forum, Chaos. If you can back your assertions up, it would be good, but knowing how the Saudi's and others like that act, I guess that that would be hard. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely...

Now that the Democrats are in the driving seat, I would REALLY love to see an investigation into 9/11, which is not chaired by GOP bootlickers, just to shed some light. Maybe 9/11 WAS just an unbelievable series of impossible circumstances happening instantaneously, against all the laws of probability and rationality, and a thorough investigation SHOULD expose this, or it will expose and show the corrupt and seething underbelly of the Beast, and that may hurt the sensibilities of the people who believed the official version, but you don't kill a dragon by petting it and whispering sweet nothings into its ears, you find it's weak spot and then gut it, displaying the carcass so that all who would follow in the dragon's claw-prints think twice...

I have a pretty good idea of what happened, by who, and why. The implications of dragging this tumor out into the light of day are going to be huge, so huge that it almost makes one want to give up and carry on with our lives, but this cancer NEEDS to be treated, because it will poison the future if it isn't addressed with urgence.
The death-toll is rising, and some of the planned for effects have been turned on their heads, some key players have left or been removed, but it still remains a dangerous game. 9/11 is a key-stone in this. Expose the truth, and the roof may just cave in. But roofs can be rebuilt, once the rot of corruption is removed. wink.gif
jmbrewr
QUOTE(Jesus of Suburbia @ Friday, 19 May 2006, 1:53 pm) [snapback]58105[/snapback]

So are you on my side sky?


Sky is on no ones side. This statement in and of itself is a new world order conspiracy as sky of mind should be called state of another kind.
Spud Demon
QUOTE(jmbrewr @ Friday, 8 December 2006, 1:20 pm) [snapback]81891[/snapback]

Sky is on no ones side. This statement in and of itself is a new world order conspiracy as sky of mind should be called state of another kind.

Pot, kettle, African-American.
sky of mind
I am anti-conspiracy theory, unless exceptional evidence can be presented.
It's my feeling that when one reaches too far, they just fall down, and the further one reaches, the more likely that fall is.

Granted, there is much conspiracy theory that is valid and quite worthy of investigation. But claims like the towers being brought down by demolition explosives, that's the sort of exceptional extreme that would require exceptional evidence.


Look, many people still believe Oswald was not the lone shooter, inspite of decades of no one ever being able to prove it, and many many people have tried.

UFO from distant space may or may not be real, and as much as I might want them to be real, without any solid, scientific, verifiable and repeatable evidence, they don't exist!



Who's side am I on? Which ever side can prove their claim.
I'm on the side of truth, with my eyes open for other possible truths.
Rousseau
Sky, sorry, mon ami, but the towers have MORE conclusive evidence that they were destroyed by controlled demolition than they just "fell down" because airliners hit them high up, and a bit of kerosene burnt a lot of papers.

The third tower "falling down" because some debris had hit it doesn't wear it either. "Pull it." Yeah, right, Larry. You didn't know your buildings were wired for demo, eh ? Just like you didn't "know" that they would be attacked by "Terrorists who hate your freedoms" just after the ink had dried on that voluptuous insurance policy you had signed covering you from such nigh-on impossible events as a "Terrorist who hates freedoms" attack after you took over the lease from the Port Authority on its White Elephant Centre, er sorry, World Trade Centre...

Be thankful that the other buildings you own weren't protected as well by the Bush/ PNAC family, otherwise they may have gone down too, especially if more of the "evil terrorists who hate your freedoms" had slipped through the, er, Bush/ PNAC family controlled airport security and flown more last-minute scheduled flights with unusual, minimal numbers passenger lists, no US Mail cargo, and invisible-to-radar-once-off-course 757's.

The Kennedy assasination happened when people where still naive enough to believe that their Government wasn't yet evil enough to lie too much to them, and still had their best interests at heart. Internet didn't exist, the media was only just recovering from the rape of MacCarthyism, and modern forensic science was still in its infancy.
Imagine the assassination of a modern POTUS today. The perps would have to be super-human to avoid detection.

Oh, and I'll believe in UFO's when one lands in front of me..... tinfoilhat.gif
sky of mind
QUOTE(Rousseau @ Friday, 8 December 2006, 1:49 pm) [snapback]81909[/snapback]

Sky, sorry, mon ami, but the towers have MORE conclusive evidence that they were destroyed by controlled demolition than they just "fell down" because airliners hit them high up, and a bit of kerosene burnt a lot of papers.

The third tower "falling down" because some debris had hit it doesn't wear it either. "Pull it." Yeah, right, Larry. You didn't know your buildings were wired for demo, eh ? Just like you didn't "know" that they would be attacked by "Terrorists who hate your freedoms" just after the ink had dried on that voluptuous insurance policy you had signed covering you from such nigh-on impossible events as a "Terrorist who hates freedoms" attack after you took over the lease from the Port Authority on its White Elephant Centre, er sorry, World Trade Centre...

Be thankful that the other buildings you own weren't protected as well by the Bush/ PNAC family, otherwise they may have gone down too, especially if more of the "evil terrorists who hate your freedoms" had slipped through the, er, Bush/ PNAC family controlled airport security and flown more last-minute scheduled flights with unusual, minimal numbers passenger lists, no US Mail cargo, and invisible-to-radar-once-off-course 757's.

The Kennedy assasination happened when people where still naive enough to believe that their Government wasn't yet evil enough to lie too much to them, and still had their best interests at heart. Internet didn't exist, the media was only just recovering from the rape of MacCarthyism, and modern forensic science was still in its infancy.
Imagine the assassination of a modern POTUS today. The perps would have to be super-human to avoid detection.

Oh, and I'll believe in UFO's when one lands in front of me..... tinfoilhat.gif




Sorry Rouss, but there is not conclusive evidence that anything other that two airliner filled witrh people and jet fuel brought those towers down. Lots of "sure looks funny" and "it adds up" but no conclusive evidence of any kind.
Rousseau
There is as much, if not more, evidence that explosive demolition was used, beyond a shadow of doubt, than that the destruction of the three towers was caused by airliners ramming them. There is, however, difficulty in obtaining clear, concrete (sic !) evidence, due to the destruction and emptying of the crime scene by, er, the Bush gang.
Browse around on this site for some interesting ideas.

www.st911.org
Southpaw
QUOTE(Rousseau @ Sunday, 10 December 2006, 6:27 am) [snapback]82016[/snapback]

There is as much, if not more, evidence that explosive demolition was used, beyond a shadow of doubt, than that the destruction of the three towers was caused by airliners ramming them. There is, however, difficulty in obtaining clear, concrete (sic !) evidence, due to the destruction and emptying of the crime scene by, er, the Bush gang.
Browse around on this site for some interesting ideas.

www.st911.org



Rudy Giuliani's contribution to Bushco, for which he is being grossly overcompensated. Not difficult to rationalize, considering that the Big Apple has a long history of being morally corrupt at the administartive level.

But we must disregard that reputation and not apply it to any theory or plug it into a conspiracy equation. No wonder Algebra is often mentioned as the most hated useless educational tool. Solving for the unknown using known variables. Too bad most ignore the process. Do the math.
Rousseau
I'm just hoping for an "under-the-radar" discrete and complete FULL investigation, implicating international criminal investigators from INTERPOL, former Secret-Service professionals, hands-freed judges and REAL investigative reporters, all sworn to a total, unbiased, uninfluenced, total-access to archives and evidence investigation. Culminating in a REAL, factual and precise 9/11 Report. Not a shallow, censored and partisan "9/11 Commission-to-not-find-out-the-truth" sham !

These investigative hero's will then present the report simultaneously to the UN Security Council, to Congress, to POTUS (boy, would I love to be one of those presenting this report to him...!!!) and to the EU, Australian and British Parliments.

If they conclude that an act of God happened on that day, to explain all the unexplicable co-incidences, and because no evidence proves that underhand methods (unscheduled flights, odd passenger lists, total stand-down of entire NORAD, suspension of laws of gravity and physics, "Reichstaag" similarities to install "Enabling Act/Patriot Act", utilisations of "Shock and Awe" Weapons of Mass Distraction, insider trading, odd stock-market movements, evacuation of Bushfriends, etc, etc...) were used and that the Government story is true, then I'll let sleeping dogs lie, and carry on with my life.


Let it roll !! clap.gif clap.gif
Spud Demon
QUOTE(Rousseau @ Sunday, 10 December 2006, 6:27 am) [snapback]82016[/snapback]

There is as much, if not more, evidence that explosive demolition was used, beyond a shadow of doubt, than that the destruction of the three towers was caused by airliners ramming them. There is, however, difficulty in obtaining clear, concrete (sic !) evidence, due to the destruction and emptying of the crime scene by, er, the Bush gang.
Browse around on this site for some interesting ideas.

www.st911.org


Suppose Richard Clarke had informed Larry Silverstein that the WTC was a potential terrorist target? Not a stretch, since it had been in the past. Silverstein would make sure to buy plenty of terrorism insurance.

"Pull" building 7? A sound firefighting decision, or FDNY wouldn't have done it.

Silverstein's reason for hiding the truth -- insurance litigation. If he was in on the decision, he gets less money, probably.
Rousseau
You don't just "pull" and collapse a building into it's footprint without a LOT of very precise preparation, and skyscrapers don't just "fall down" like that either. These three buildings are the only examples of this type of collapse following short fire-burn times in the entire history of civil engineering and, as an absolute minimum, should have cast huge doubt on the structural integrity of every American-built building over 20 stories high. Other skyscrapers have been hit by planes, tempests, been bombed, have burnt for 30 or more hours, have been subjected to constraints over and beyond what their designers briefed, and NONE of them have EVER fallen down. Ever.

There is a first time for everything, but the mathematical chances of three buildings collapsing like shoddy towers of brittle clay, vapourising the concrete into fine powder, neatly sectioning ALL the steel core rods and girders, and collapsing with pin-point precision is about the same as winning 50 times in succession the national lotteries of all the countries of the World who have a loto game, using the same numbers. wry2.gif

Guess I better go buy a ticket.... smile.gif
sky of mind
Again I will say it.

There is enough evidence to warrent further investigation,
but there is as of yet, no conclusive proof. Nothing more than supposition and "educated guess work".

Understand that I have my suspicions as well, but I will never say I believe a physical thing is so, not without conclusive evidence. I will however, say that something is possible. But that's far from saying it's so.



Rouss, I have seen the same evidence you have, and we've both seen it all many times. Yes, it does seem to look suspicious. But something seeming to look funny, is not proof.

I think we're all going to have to accept the fact that we are never going to have the sort of conclusive evidence and proof that will put these conspiracy stories to bed. For the rest of your life, and everyone alive today and 100 years beyond, these theories will be the subject of books and movies, and will be debated among critical thinkers ad nausuim. And yet, there will never be a suitable answer, except, nearly 3000 Americans died in an moment, and it happened on Bush's watch, and it might very well have been prevented.

From 9/11 through Katrina the Iraq Quagmire and the near destruction of the US Constitution, that's a hell of a legacy, and it all happened in less than 6 years. That my friends, it fucking simply amazing!
Neverman
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Friday, 8 December 2006, 1:39 pm) [snapback]81905[/snapback]


I am anti-conspiracy theory, unless exceptional evidence can be presented.
It's my feeling that when one reaches too far, they just fall down, and the further one reaches, the more likely that fall is.

Granted, there is much conspiracy theory that is valid and quite worthy of investigation. But claims like the towers being brought down by demolition explosives, that's the sort of exceptional extreme that would require exceptional evidence. Look, many people still believe Oswald was not the lone shooter, inspite of decades of no one ever being able to prove it, and many many people have tried.

UFO from distant space may or may not be real, and as much as I might want them to be real, without any solid, scientific, verifiable and repeatable evidence, they don't exist! Who's side am I on? Which ever side can prove their claim. I'm on the side of truth, with my eyes open for other possible truths.


***Well, first of all, the party-line of 19 20-30something Arabs got together and, with nothing more than boxcutters, somehow caused the greatest devastation in sixty years on American soil is, in itself, a "conspiracy theory." Second, "conspiracy" is a legally operative valid definition, namely, the two or more persons planning in concert an act with a stated goal. Unfortunately, in today's America, "conspiracy theory" is used to deride anyone who isn't part of the bleating mass of sheep...

Exceptional evidence? What is this, a courtroom? You could never prove this case in court, however, that is precisely the point: These motherfuckers don't LEAVE evidentiary trails, and as in the case of the Kennedy assassination(s), these same forces (Bush I) have managed to get the intelligence communities records on them surpressed for another 75 years.

Americans are so guillable.
sky of mind
QUOTE(Neverman @ Monday, 11 December 2006, 9:29 am) [snapback]82115[/snapback]

***Well, first of all, the party-line of 19 20-30something Arabs got together and, with nothing more than boxcutters, somehow caused the greatest devastation in sixty years on American soil is, in itself, a "conspiracy theory." Second, "conspiracy" is a legally operative valid definition, namely, the two or more persons planning in concert an act with a stated goal. Unfortunately, in today's America, "conspiracy theory" is used to deride anyone who isn't part of the bleating mass of sheep...

Exceptional evidence? What is this, a courtroom? You could never prove this case in court, however, that is precisely the point: These motherfuckers don't LEAVE evidentiary trails, and as in the case of the Kennedy assassination(s), these same forces (Bush I) have managed to get the intelligence communities records on them surpressed for another 75 years.

Americans are so guillable.




Yes, it all looks suspicious. But you have ZERO proof. What you do have is your opinion of what you think you see. And that's all!

There is a danger in troo much conspiracy theory, in that when the real shit need to be paid attention too, no one will listen. As in, how many times you wanna be the boy who cried wolf? You spout off about all the crack smokin theories, and soon enough nobody will listen to anything. Most already tune most, if not all of it out. And I simply can't blame them.


If you have a great conspiracy idea, brand it as an idea, and forget the notion that it's credible.
If you want a Credible Conspiracy Theory, you need real, solid, verifiable proof!
Southpaw
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Monday, 11 December 2006, 3:52 pm) [snapback]82137[/snapback]

Yes, it all looks suspicious. But you have ZERO proof. What you do have is your opinion of what you think you see. And that's all!

There is a danger in troo much conspiracy theory, in that when the real shit need to be paid attention too, no one will listen. As in, how many times you wanna be the boy who cried wolf? You spout off about all the crack smokin theories, and soon enough nobody will listen to anything. Most already tune most, if not all of it out. And I simply can't blame them.
If you have a great conspiracy idea, brand it as an idea, and forget the notion that it's credible.
If you want a Credible Conspiracy Theory, you need real, solid, verifiable proof!


...and that is the mindset that allows this shit to happen time and again. Most actually believe that it is next to impossible for a group of individuals or entities to "conspire", collude and arrange to have an array of factors to come together to allow a premeditated action that will benefit those individuals and their agenda. It has occurred throught history and is not even rare. It seems that the time clock must reach the 100 year mark before the acceptance of that conspiracy takes place. The litmus test to prove a "conspiracy" is so much more demanding than that test which allows the general acceptance of a set of coincidences wrapped around a not so random event.

We have come to accept the convolution and corruption of our justice system that now, so often, requires an individual to prove his innocence once accused, that we might just do the same for events such as these.

What is to benefit by this avoidance?
Rousseau
Sky, I have an opinion that the Earth is round, and rotates around the Sun. But I can't prove this 100%, although I'm pretty sure that I'm right.

The people who carried out this attack were not stupid, but they ARE arrogant, with a dramatic superiority complex, and sure that they had all their bases covered.
But I don't think they realised that people aren't as gullible or stupid as they had thought. "Oops" for them.

We don't want much, only the truth, and to get that we need the proof, and to get that, we need a FULL, no holds barred investigation into the events leading up to, during, and after 9/11.

Now, before certain key elements can grace us with dying comfortably, without doing jail-time. Before all the evidence can be erased, and before the great mass of sheeple who bought into the "Shock and Awe" pyrotechnics and Reichstaag-burning type event can be lulled back to sleep again !

If it really was OBL, acting by himself, and graced surely by the Hand of God that allowed some scrawny Arab terrorists to waltz into the country, waltz through security, take over planes crewed by and passengered by ex-military and serving military passengers, mixed in with civilians, with nary a bleat, pilot these things around in the most heavily protected airspace on the Planet with transponders turned off without a single reaction from NORAD (who themselves were running under a strange new Rumsfeld instigated orders system which came into being just before 9/11 and puffed out just after...), and then slap these planes with pin-point precision into the empty parts of buildings, or buildings which would have been too expensive to bring up to current Federal Building Standards and too dangerous (asbestos) to demolish, what would a full and comprehensive enquiry show up that frightens Bush and the PNAC so much ?

If, afterall, it REALLY was OBL that did it, the PNAC and their supporters have only their credibility and integrity to gain back. ph34r.gif
sky of mind
QUOTE(Southpaw @ Tuesday, 12 December 2006, 4:09 am) [snapback]82195[/snapback]

...and that is the mindset that allows this shit to happen time and again. Most actually believe that it is next to impossible for a group of individuals or entities to "conspire", collude and arrange to have an array of factors to come together to allow a premeditated action that will benefit those individuals and their agenda. It has occurred throught history and is not even rare. It seems that the time clock must reach the 100 year mark before the acceptance of that conspiracy takes place. The litmus test to prove a "conspiracy" is so much more demanding than that test which allows the general acceptance of a set of coincidences wrapped around a not so random event.

We have come to accept the convolution and corruption of our justice system that now, so often, requires an individual to prove his innocence once accused, that we might just do the same for events such as these.

What is to benefit by this avoidance?




Aned what is it you're proposing Southpaw?
Will the witchdance cure the patient?
sky of mind
QUOTE(Rousseau @ Tuesday, 12 December 2006, 5:53 am) [snapback]82197[/snapback]

Sky, I have an opinion that the Earth is round, and rotates around the Sun. But I can't prove this 100%, although I'm pretty sure that I'm right.

The people who carried out this attack were not stupid, but they ARE arrogant, with a dramatic superiority complex, and sure that they had all their bases covered.
But I don't think they realised that people aren't as gullible or stupid as they had thought. "Oops" for them.

We don't want much, only the truth, and to get that we need the proof, and to get that, we need a FULL, no holds barred investigation into the events leading up to, during, and after 9/11.

Now, before certain key elements can grace us with dying comfortably, without doing jail-time. Before all the evidence can be erased, and before the great mass of sheeple who bought into the "Shock and Awe" pyrotechnics and Reichstaag-burning type event can be lulled back to sleep again !

If it really was OBL, acting by himself, and graced surely by the Hand of God that allowed some scrawny Arab terrorists to waltz into the country, waltz through security, take over planes crewed by and passengered by ex-military and serving military passengers, mixed in with civilians, with nary a bleat, pilot these things around in the most heavily protected airspace on the Planet with transponders turned off without a single reaction from NORAD (who themselves were running under a strange new Rumsfeld instigated orders system which came into being just before 9/11 and puffed out just after...), and then slap these planes with pin-point precision into the empty parts of buildings, or buildings which would have been too expensive to bring up to current Federal Building Standards and too dangerous (asbestos) to demolish, what would a full and comprehensive enquiry show up that frightens Bush and the PNAC so much ?

If, afterall, it REALLY was OBL that did it, the PNAC and their supporters have only their credibility and integrity to gain back. ph34r.gif




Actually Rousse, the rotation of a round earth can and has been verifiably proven.

Theory, = I dunno, but I think maybe.
Conspiracy theory = I dunno, but I think some guys did this.
Proof = Ah, I see!



Again, I'm not saying these things aren't possible. All I'm trying to do is put them into perspective.
And that perspective states that you have no proof other than opinion.
Southpaw
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Tuesday, 12 December 2006, 10:36 am) [snapback]82207[/snapback]

Aned what is it you're proposing Southpaw?
Will the witchdance cure the patient?


My proposal was quite clear. " Will the witchdance cure the patient?" makes absolutely no sense to me.
sky of mind
QUOTE(Southpaw @ Tuesday, 12 December 2006, 9:24 am) [snapback]82213[/snapback]

My proposal was quite clear. " Will the witchdance cure the patient?" makes absolutely no sense to me.




Mumbo Jumbo. Hocus Pocus. Voodoo. Wishful thinking. Wanting it will all your might.


If the proposal is so clear, then make it so!
Southpaw
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Tuesday, 12 December 2006, 1:09 pm) [snapback]82217[/snapback]

Mumbo Jumbo. Hocus Pocus. Voodoo. Wishful thinking. Wanting it will all your might.
If the proposal is so clear, then make it so!


"Wanting it will all your might." ??????


My proposal is to attempt to persuade people to open their mind up and try on a piece of reality. It was very clear in the original post, so maybe you just want to stir the pot and bust chops.
sky of mind
QUOTE(Southpaw @ Tuesday, 12 December 2006, 11:02 am) [snapback]82224[/snapback]

"Wanting it will all your might." ??????
My proposal is to attempt to persuade people to open their mind up and try on a piece of reality. It was very clear in the original post, so maybe you just want to stir the pot and bust chops.




so the best way to be critiocal of my argument, is to be critical of the typo?

Ha! Then I'm your huckleberry!


This is not about busting any chops. I was quite clear. This is about being reasonable with the conspiracy theories while we recognise and understand the limitations of them. This was also NOT a personal attack on anyone.


Though, if yer really into conspiracy theory, lemme give you a few links so you can research Chem-Trails, and Government Weather Modification! According to believers, it's all there to see with your own eyes. (that never deceive)
Southpaw
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Tuesday, 12 December 2006, 3:29 pm) [snapback]82228[/snapback]

so the best way to be critiocal of my