Full Version: What Really Happened On 9/11?
OLD American Century / White Rose Society message boards > Political Discussion forums > Politics In General
I want to start a thread where we can hopefully discuss some of the objections and counter-objections to what happened on 9/11, the government's story, and the conspiracy theories. I am proposing a full scale debate at the POAC forums about 9/11. I am not on the side of the conspiracy theorist on this one and i have a lot of good reasons. Then again, i have an open mind and we are all smart people, so maybe we can discuss this to try and figure out what we can. Trust me, i have looked at all of the conspiracy theories and i am just not convinced. Now, i don't think Bush was a hero on 9/11 and i do admit there are some fishy things about what happened but i can not go so far as LIHOP or MIHOP points of view. My personal beliefs on the subject revolve around the administration's complete incompetence and their ability to exploit tragedy. I will leave it at that for now, since it is late.
Okay, you have some catching up to do. That's okay. Start by removing the term "Conspiracy Theorist" from your vocabulary. The official story comes closer to a theory than anything else I've read or heard.
Grab a copy of one of the CD Videos, "In Plane Sight", "Loose Change II", etc. Absorb the stuff and remain critical.....at all times. There's loads of dis-information out there.
Flight 77. WTC 7. Remote-control for Jumbos. Controlled demolition methods. Qui Bono ? Super-good ad-hoc Jumbo pilots vs. the worst flight trainee an instructor has ever seen.
9/11 is at the heart of it all. If you wanna understand what's happening in the world and why, you first have to become an expert, per say, on 9/11. Well, it sure as hell helps because 9/11 is the heart of the matter.
About the assertation the lawn webpage address the pentalawn in a humorous manner....look again. There's a lot of irony and utter frustration hidden there. That webpage is fairly old. I recall it being one of the first I ever saw. There's another good one that covers flight 77. Check it out. Scroogle for it and check it out. Do the math. Remain sceptical at all times.
Moi ? I say it was an inside job. They had they way, the means and the need to pull it off. And looky there, everything else, fulfillment of the PNAC plan, rebuilding America's Defences, falls into place. Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc.
Bon Voyage. Bon Chance. And don't forget to breath.
P.S. go to TVNewsLies or http://www.st911.org/ to start with. The latter is new, and has most all the links one can possibly ask for. The former is not so new, but also damned good.
j
P.P.S. you have to realize there are a few stages one has to go through on the road to truth. The 1st stage is as you stated, incompetence.....or, "they let it happen". 2nd stage = they helped it happen. I'll let you figure the rest out all on your own.
Grab a copy of one of the CD Videos, "In Plane Sight", "Loose Change II", etc. Absorb the stuff and remain critical.....at all times. There's loads of dis-information out there.
Flight 77. WTC 7. Remote-control for Jumbos. Controlled demolition methods. Qui Bono ? Super-good ad-hoc Jumbo pilots vs. the worst flight trainee an instructor has ever seen.
9/11 is at the heart of it all. If you wanna understand what's happening in the world and why, you first have to become an expert, per say, on 9/11. Well, it sure as hell helps because 9/11 is the heart of the matter.
About the assertation the lawn webpage address the pentalawn in a humorous manner....look again. There's a lot of irony and utter frustration hidden there. That webpage is fairly old. I recall it being one of the first I ever saw. There's another good one that covers flight 77. Check it out. Scroogle for it and check it out. Do the math. Remain sceptical at all times.
Moi ? I say it was an inside job. They had they way, the means and the need to pull it off. And looky there, everything else, fulfillment of the PNAC plan, rebuilding America's Defences, falls into place. Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc.
Bon Voyage. Bon Chance. And don't forget to breath.
P.S. go to TVNewsLies or http://www.st911.org/ to start with. The latter is new, and has most all the links one can possibly ask for. The former is not so new, but also damned good.
j
P.P.S. you have to realize there are a few stages one has to go through on the road to truth. The 1st stage is as you stated, incompetence.....or, "they let it happen". 2nd stage = they helped it happen. I'll let you figure the rest out all on your own.
http://oldamericancentury.org/bb/index.php?showtopic=8812
JoS WATCH THIS
This Movie IS NOT a movie about "HOW THE TOWERS FELL"
This Movie IS NOT a movie that claims "BUSH BOMBED THE USA"
This Movie DOES EXAMINE FACTS that lead us into the elections of 2000, fraud, drug money, free plane rides for politicians, cruise lines.
This Movie DOES EXAMINE FACTS about Abramoff's connection to Atta and a mob hit that yet he will stand trial for and Atta's and other terrorist's training by our Government and their Florida connection.
This Movie DOES EXAMINE FACTS about who knew something and wanted to talk but instead were ordered to stop asking questions or about people who had knowledge but did nothing with it.
This Movie DOES EXPLORE the fact that the media is complicit of an entire cover up concerning this Administration and many key players.
This Movie looks at key PNAC players, their organization, stated goals and desires, their lies that have lead to a Fourth Reich in America.
And so much more.
9/11 Commission's ill attempts to skirt the questions that the families urged to be asked.
Dick Cheney's role in 9/11 and the failed scuttling of Air Force fighters on 9/11 and the war games of that day.
JoS WATCH THIS
This Movie IS NOT a movie about "HOW THE TOWERS FELL"
This Movie IS NOT a movie that claims "BUSH BOMBED THE USA"
This Movie DOES EXAMINE FACTS that lead us into the elections of 2000, fraud, drug money, free plane rides for politicians, cruise lines.
This Movie DOES EXAMINE FACTS about Abramoff's connection to Atta and a mob hit that yet he will stand trial for and Atta's and other terrorist's training by our Government and their Florida connection.
This Movie DOES EXAMINE FACTS about who knew something and wanted to talk but instead were ordered to stop asking questions or about people who had knowledge but did nothing with it.
This Movie DOES EXPLORE the fact that the media is complicit of an entire cover up concerning this Administration and many key players.
This Movie looks at key PNAC players, their organization, stated goals and desires, their lies that have lead to a Fourth Reich in America.
And so much more.
9/11 Commission's ill attempts to skirt the questions that the families urged to be asked.
Dick Cheney's role in 9/11 and the failed scuttling of Air Force fighters on 9/11 and the war games of that day.
Thanks Max-1. I've posted this on Music & More. And this;
I won't give up. I'll try not to get too involved. I'll try. But just as with the JFK case, I won't give up. None of you should either. Fact is, the wrong-doing and negligence for human rights cannot be blamed on Osama & friends. 9/11, as the root of it all, may never be clarified. The ICC may never try members of the US Govt. Democracy may never come our way again. Still, it's our duty to continue copying and distributing, as the Scholls did. Our Karmas are at stake. Call it Heaven if need be.
I'm exhausted. Regroup, repair, prepare.
I won't give up. I'll try not to get too involved. I'll try. But just as with the JFK case, I won't give up. None of you should either. Fact is, the wrong-doing and negligence for human rights cannot be blamed on Osama & friends. 9/11, as the root of it all, may never be clarified. The ICC may never try members of the US Govt. Democracy may never come our way again. Still, it's our duty to continue copying and distributing, as the Scholls did. Our Karmas are at stake. Call it Heaven if need be.
I'm exhausted. Regroup, repair, prepare.
To me , the fact that PNAC posted the "Rebuilding America's Defenses" manifesto on their website just two months before the November 2000 elections means something . The timing is uncanny. I truly believe the NeoCONS were trying to incite terrorists, any terrorists. What group sincerely against terrorism would post such a document on the world wide web ?
One word - complicity.
The 9/11 commission is the Warren commission for the 00's. Going back to the events of Nov 1963 for a minute, the evidence overwhelmingly points to CIA involvement. If you accept that, it means that the USA has been under the control of people other than the President for at least 40 years. Their little coup d'etat shows they are hardly people you'd allow to babysit your kids. Power and money; thats what it always comes down to. Fast forward 40 years and we see events reminicent of the burning of the Reichstag, the attack on Pearl Harbour, the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Those who fail to learn from their history are doomed to repeat it. People in the upper echelons of government are not stupid (or the people behind them are not). They know exactly what they are doing. With that in mind, consider the surveillance, the flight schools, the stood down air defences, the training exercise. There are too many coincidences to conclude that there was anything other than a conspiracy.
The 9/11 commission is the Warren commission for the 00's. Going back to the events of Nov 1963 for a minute, the evidence overwhelmingly points to CIA involvement. If you accept that, it means that the USA has been under the control of people other than the President for at least 40 years. Their little coup d'etat shows they are hardly people you'd allow to babysit your kids. Power and money; thats what it always comes down to. Fast forward 40 years and we see events reminicent of the burning of the Reichstag, the attack on Pearl Harbour, the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Those who fail to learn from their history are doomed to repeat it. People in the upper echelons of government are not stupid (or the people behind them are not). They know exactly what they are doing. With that in mind, consider the surveillance, the flight schools, the stood down air defences, the training exercise. There are too many coincidences to conclude that there was anything other than a conspiracy.
This is how I feel about it....
1) BushCo are pawns, nothing more. They try to scramble for control and use any means to get it, because I think they KNOW they are nothing more then pawns.
2) Most of BushCo didnt know anymore about what happened then we did.
3) Someone in goverment DID know and planed it. I am thinking Rumsfield is a major player on this part. Think shot husband to avoid being a suspect for the death of wife idea I said in another thread.
4) WT7 was designed as a bunker/observaing outpost for MANY governmental organizations durin g just such things like 9/11. I dont think it was destoried to cover anything up, I think it was destoried to prevent effective means of discovery.
5) The whole purpose of 9/11, to me, was the create an effective control method. Tell someone their life is in danger and they will do what ever you say to save their own life. This could not have happened with out YEARS of brainwashing and our individualistic culture. 9/11 is exactly what Jay said it was, checkmate. We have been in a global game since birth and we had no idea we were players.
6) Flight 77 is nothing more then heroism and propaganda used as a means to have us into a "lets fight back" mentality. So far five of the people who were on the plane have been found alive elsewhere in the world, including the famed female who called her husband to tell him goodbye the our Government used as evidience in M's trial.
7) The whole purpose of this whole "game" is to increase the wealth of the "pawns" and increase the power of those who control the world. Their grib sliped one us and we almost wrestled free of their grasp for good, now we understand the extent they are willing to go to keep us in check and that idea alone is now what keeps most intelligent people who know all of this silent.
There is more, but I wish to hear your reply to this.
ALL information in this post was found at POAC. If you do not already know all this, then you are not paying attention.
1) BushCo are pawns, nothing more. They try to scramble for control and use any means to get it, because I think they KNOW they are nothing more then pawns.
2) Most of BushCo didnt know anymore about what happened then we did.
3) Someone in goverment DID know and planed it. I am thinking Rumsfield is a major player on this part. Think shot husband to avoid being a suspect for the death of wife idea I said in another thread.
4) WT7 was designed as a bunker/observaing outpost for MANY governmental organizations durin g just such things like 9/11. I dont think it was destoried to cover anything up, I think it was destoried to prevent effective means of discovery.
5) The whole purpose of 9/11, to me, was the create an effective control method. Tell someone their life is in danger and they will do what ever you say to save their own life. This could not have happened with out YEARS of brainwashing and our individualistic culture. 9/11 is exactly what Jay said it was, checkmate. We have been in a global game since birth and we had no idea we were players.
6) Flight 77 is nothing more then heroism and propaganda used as a means to have us into a "lets fight back" mentality. So far five of the people who were on the plane have been found alive elsewhere in the world, including the famed female who called her husband to tell him goodbye the our Government used as evidience in M's trial.
7) The whole purpose of this whole "game" is to increase the wealth of the "pawns" and increase the power of those who control the world. Their grib sliped one us and we almost wrestled free of their grasp for good, now we understand the extent they are willing to go to keep us in check and that idea alone is now what keeps most intelligent people who know all of this silent.
There is more, but I wish to hear your reply to this.
ALL information in this post was found at POAC. If you do not already know all this, then you are not paying attention.
I have come up with some reasons why I feel the way I do about 9/11. My views are somewhere in between Bush administration incompetence and they let it happen. I have come to a few possible conclusions about 9/11:
1. They are proven to be incompetent with every aspect of everything they do, therefore they just had no idea what was going on, although I agree this probably is not completely true.
2. They had an idea that something was coming but they just did not care. They could have been thinking "Someone else will handle it" or "It will never happen". In the first part of 2001, they were clearly more concerned about tax cuts and things of this nature. Maybe they were focusing too heavily on these things. I bet that Ashcroft and Rumsfeld were more concerned about getting tax breaks through the congress than anything else.
3. Someone in the government let it happen but it probably was not Bush. This is the other extreme on my views of what happened on 9/11. I don't think Bush had anything to do with it and I doubt that most if any of his high level cabinet had anything to do with it. I admit it is possible but I doubt it is too likely.
Let me tell you some of the reasoning behind my views.
1. There are many reasons why I don't think they planned it at all or that high level officials let it happen and here is why.
-Do you remember Bush's reaction? He sat in a classroom for seven minutes just staring at the wall. Do you think he would have been in the classroom and that he would have reacted the way he did if he had this all planned out or if he knew it was coming? I would be that he would have not been with a bunch of kids but he would have been somewhere else, like a military base, a VFW, something along those lines. Also, I think he would have sprang to action right away, to make it look like he was a strong leader not an incompetent fool. Plus, look at what he did all day on 9/11. He flew around the country on a plane. I am guessing that if he knew everything was going to be ok, that he would have headed straight for the White House instead, again to make him seem like a strong leader.
-They would have done more to control us. It took them a couple of weeks to come up with the Patriot Act and it took them a few weeks to really start scaring us. These people may be incompetent but they do know how to exploit a situation eventually. If they had planned it or if they had let it happen, then they would have declared martial law on 9/11. If they were trying to make a grab for power, then they would have done it right away at a time when people would have accepted it. Of course they used 9/11 for political gain but it took them too long for it to have seemed planned.
-They would have made it look like Iraq did it. This is a point that I feel completely proves that they did not plan it at all. This does not say that they did not let it happen but there is no way they planned it. If they planned it, why would they have made it look like Bin Laden did it? They wanted to go after Iraq for years, why would they not have made it look Saddam planned the attacks? They would have attacked Iraq right away, instead of going into Afghanistan and then waiting a year and a half to go into Iraq. They had no use for Afghanistan and they clearly did not want to do much with it, so why set it up to look like they were the ones who planned it?
-They are incompetent. If you honestly believe that Bush or any of his pals could plan anything this successfully, then you are giving them way too much credit. Think about it. If they planned and executed it, they got successfully pulled off the terrorist attacks, successfully framed Bin Laden, and kept it a complete secret 4 and a half years. Everything these people do fails miserably. There is no way they could have done all of this and got away with it.
-People talk. This goes along with the last point. You could not keep a secret this big for this many years without someone breaking down and going to the press.
-Look at the people on my side. People like Bill Maher, Richard Clarke, and Michael Moore all believe that it was due to Bush Administration incompetence and nothing more. Are you really saying that Michael Moore is delusional?
-A lot of the evidence that they planned it is pretty weak. From the World Trade Center being lined with explosives, to a cruse missile hitting the Pentagon, to people being found alive who are supposed to be dead is all unproven and fanciful. Coincidences happen, people fuck things up, people lie, and people make mistakes. I have seen these videos that allege that Bush planned it or the government did and I am just not convinced by such weak evidence. I have found that if you look hard enough, you can find evidence of anything but it does not make it true.
1. They are proven to be incompetent with every aspect of everything they do, therefore they just had no idea what was going on, although I agree this probably is not completely true.
2. They had an idea that something was coming but they just did not care. They could have been thinking "Someone else will handle it" or "It will never happen". In the first part of 2001, they were clearly more concerned about tax cuts and things of this nature. Maybe they were focusing too heavily on these things. I bet that Ashcroft and Rumsfeld were more concerned about getting tax breaks through the congress than anything else.
3. Someone in the government let it happen but it probably was not Bush. This is the other extreme on my views of what happened on 9/11. I don't think Bush had anything to do with it and I doubt that most if any of his high level cabinet had anything to do with it. I admit it is possible but I doubt it is too likely.
Let me tell you some of the reasoning behind my views.
1. There are many reasons why I don't think they planned it at all or that high level officials let it happen and here is why.
-Do you remember Bush's reaction? He sat in a classroom for seven minutes just staring at the wall. Do you think he would have been in the classroom and that he would have reacted the way he did if he had this all planned out or if he knew it was coming? I would be that he would have not been with a bunch of kids but he would have been somewhere else, like a military base, a VFW, something along those lines. Also, I think he would have sprang to action right away, to make it look like he was a strong leader not an incompetent fool. Plus, look at what he did all day on 9/11. He flew around the country on a plane. I am guessing that if he knew everything was going to be ok, that he would have headed straight for the White House instead, again to make him seem like a strong leader.
-They would have done more to control us. It took them a couple of weeks to come up with the Patriot Act and it took them a few weeks to really start scaring us. These people may be incompetent but they do know how to exploit a situation eventually. If they had planned it or if they had let it happen, then they would have declared martial law on 9/11. If they were trying to make a grab for power, then they would have done it right away at a time when people would have accepted it. Of course they used 9/11 for political gain but it took them too long for it to have seemed planned.
-They would have made it look like Iraq did it. This is a point that I feel completely proves that they did not plan it at all. This does not say that they did not let it happen but there is no way they planned it. If they planned it, why would they have made it look like Bin Laden did it? They wanted to go after Iraq for years, why would they not have made it look Saddam planned the attacks? They would have attacked Iraq right away, instead of going into Afghanistan and then waiting a year and a half to go into Iraq. They had no use for Afghanistan and they clearly did not want to do much with it, so why set it up to look like they were the ones who planned it?
-They are incompetent. If you honestly believe that Bush or any of his pals could plan anything this successfully, then you are giving them way too much credit. Think about it. If they planned and executed it, they got successfully pulled off the terrorist attacks, successfully framed Bin Laden, and kept it a complete secret 4 and a half years. Everything these people do fails miserably. There is no way they could have done all of this and got away with it.
-People talk. This goes along with the last point. You could not keep a secret this big for this many years without someone breaking down and going to the press.
-Look at the people on my side. People like Bill Maher, Richard Clarke, and Michael Moore all believe that it was due to Bush Administration incompetence and nothing more. Are you really saying that Michael Moore is delusional?
-A lot of the evidence that they planned it is pretty weak. From the World Trade Center being lined with explosives, to a cruse missile hitting the Pentagon, to people being found alive who are supposed to be dead is all unproven and fanciful. Coincidences happen, people fuck things up, people lie, and people make mistakes. I have seen these videos that allege that Bush planned it or the government did and I am just not convinced by such weak evidence. I have found that if you look hard enough, you can find evidence of anything but it does not make it true.
QUOTE(Jesus of Suburbia @ Friday, 19 May 2006, 12:52 pm) [snapback]58042[/snapback]
1. There are many reasons why I don't think they planned it at all or that high level officials let it happen and here is why.
-Do you remember Bush's reaction? He sat in a classroom for seven minutes just staring at the wall. Do you think he would have been in the classroom and that he would have reacted the way he did if he had this all planned out or if he knew it was coming? I would be that he would have not been with a bunch of kids but he would have been somewhere else, like a military base, a VFW, something along those lines. Also, I think he would have sprang to action right away, to make it look like he was a strong leader not an incompetent fool. Plus, look at what he did all day on 9/11. He flew around the country on a plane. I am guessing that if he knew everything was going to be ok, that he would have headed straight for the White House instead, again to make him seem like a strong leader.
Bush won the election and spent the first 8 months of his presidency on the premise that he is an idiot just like the rest of us. He sat in that classroom like a dear in headlights because now when people think of his actions on 9-11 they make a subconscious connection beteen him and a minority child. Most people wouldn't expect a poor southern black child to stand up and lead the nation on 9-11, so they can't fault poor dumb dyslexic W for not doing any better.
QUOTE
-They would have done more to control us. It took them a couple of weeks to come up with the Patriot Act and it took them a few weeks to really start scaring us. These people may be incompetent but they do know how to exploit a situation eventually. If they had planned it or if they had let it happen, then they would have declared martial law on 9/11. If they were trying to make a grab for power, then they would have done it right away at a time when people would have accepted it. Of course they used 9/11 for political gain but it took them too long for it to have seemed planned.
They came up with the Patriot Act in a matter of weeks - or so they say. I think it was a pretty amazing grab for power for only a couple of weeks work.
Secondly I believe that the flight that crashed in Pennsylvania was headed for the Capital building in DC. Had a large number of Congressmen been killed and Congress disabled on 9-11, Martial Law would have been automatic - not even a need for the Patriot act. I think some hot shot pilot took the initiative to break orders and shoot that plane down. I know there is some conjecture about this very topic out there including claims that a pilot received a medal for it. From the pictures, to me, it looks like that plane was shot down.
QUOTE
-They would have made it look like Iraq did it. This is a point that I feel completely proves that they did not plan it at all. This does not say that they did not let it happen but there is no way they planned it. If they planned it, why would they have made it look like Bin Laden did it? They wanted to go after Iraq for years, why would they not have made it look Saddam planned the attacks? They would have attacked Iraq right away, instead of going into Afghanistan and then waiting a year and a half to go into Iraq. They had no use for Afghanistan and they clearly did not want to do much with it, so why set it up to look like they were the ones who planned it?
They did try to make it look like Iraq did it. That's one of the reasons we invaded Iraq. The oil pipeline through Afghanistan was more of a priority to Bushco than Iraq ever was so they made the case for Afghanistan first, then headed for Iraq.
The Afgan pipeline is about immediate pay-off to the campaign contributors. Iraq is about long-term U.S. interests in the region.
QUOTE
-They are incompetent. If you honestly believe that Bush or any of his pals could plan anything this successfully, then you are giving them way too much credit. Think about it. If they planned and executed it, they got successfully pulled off the terrorist attacks, successfully framed Bin Laden, and kept it a complete secret 4 and a half years. Everything these people do fails miserably. There is no way they could have done all of this and got away with it.
What else have they failed miserably at. I mean from our perspective they have failed, but to their side and the corporations that have made record profits in the last 6 years, this is the best administration ever.
Peope would hate a person that would purposely lose a war and sacrafice the lives of soldier merely to have a reason to stay in Iraq, but poor planning, that's just a mistake, you can't hate someone for a mistake.
It's always better to look incompetent than evil, even if the outcome is the same.
QUOTE
-People talk. This goes along with the last point. You could not keep a secret this big for this many years without someone breaking down and going to the press.
Personally, I believe that 9-11 was pulled off much like the MSM reported, they just failed to follow the money trail back past Bin Laden to the CIA, Bushco, PNAC, et al. People at the lower levels would still be telling the same stories they are, noone else had to know anything. It's only when you start talking about bombs in WTC and remote controlled air liners and cruise missiles that you start talking about other people knowing about it. It's completely possible that everything happened just like most Americans believe it did, except that it was ordered by PNAC, through Bush-Bin Laden ties.
QUOTE
-Look at the people on my side. People like Bill Maher, Richard Clarke, and Michael Moore all believe that it was due to Bush Administration incompetence and nothing more. Are you really saying that Michael Moore is delusional?
Michael Moore and Bill Maher are both making a lot of money off of criticizing the government. They know that if they started talking about Bushco complicity in 9-11 they'd lose their sponsors, or have their films boycotted, or just have bad things generally happen to them. They are too comfortable where they are so the pull punches and softball the issues. They don't want to end up doing public access TV shows in Austin Texas for god's sake.
QUOTE
-A lot of the evidence that they planned it is pretty weak. From the World Trade Center being lined with explosives, to a cruse missile hitting the Pentagon, to people being found alive who are supposed to be dead is all unproven and fanciful. Coincidences happen, people fuck things up, people lie, and people make mistakes. I have seen these videos that allege that Bush planned it or the government did and I am just not convinced by such weak evidence. I have found that if you look hard enough, you can find evidence of anything but it does not make it true.
I completely agree with you there, I just think that there are too many "coincidences" and Bush has benefitted too much for it to all be kismet. I don't argue that a lot of the evidence of the actual events is conjectural and dubious, but there is a lot of background evidence that is not and it shouldn't be ignored.
Bush did not win the election, and his administration is a coat of stupid painted over some very smart, evil motherfuckers.
Jim, those are really good responses. I agree with alot of it, but not all of it.
I think after everyone who wishes to participates in this thread had states what they think happened, we should pick one fact/opinion and tear it to pieces. Every side of that piece info and every side of the story related to until we come to a common conclusion.
So, lets give a little bit more time for people to reply and then we can pick something and go from there. Personally I would like to start with what EXACTLY was the purpose of WTC 7. Just what the building was itself is kinda shady.
I think after everyone who wishes to participates in this thread had states what they think happened, we should pick one fact/opinion and tear it to pieces. Every side of that piece info and every side of the story related to until we come to a common conclusion.
So, lets give a little bit more time for people to reply and then we can pick something and go from there. Personally I would like to start with what EXACTLY was the purpose of WTC 7. Just what the building was itself is kinda shady.
QUOTE(Gadzooks! @ Friday, 19 May 2006, 11:19 am) [snapback]58070[/snapback]
Bush did not win the election, and his administration is a coat of stupid painted over some very smart, evil motherfuckers.
Absolutely agreed!
Plus, Michael Moore and Bill Maher are making a lot of money telling the truth!
Because it's what the people desperately want to hear!
Recall when Moores movie first came out?
Recall that for nearly 3 months the show was sold out at almost every showing!
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Friday, 19 May 2006, 11:28 am) [snapback]58087[/snapback]
Absolutely agreed!
Plus, Michael Moore and Bill Maher are making a lot of money telling the truth!
Because it's what the people desperately want to hear!
Recall when Moores movie first came out?
Recall that for nearly 3 months the show was sold out at almost every showing!
So are you on my side sky?
What i have already realized from this discussion is that everyone has vastly different ideas on what happened. Then again, none of us have any way of really knowing what happened exactly. I just try to base my ideas on this from Bush's reaction and what we know about these people. They are evil yes but are they really that evil?
Yes, Jack, they are.
Bush knew of terrorist plot to hijack US planes
Terrorism crisis - Observer special
Jason Burke and Ed Vulliamy in New York
Sunday May 19, 2002
The Observer
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/stor...,718312,00.html
Terrorism crisis - Observer special
Jason Burke and Ed Vulliamy in New York
Sunday May 19, 2002
The Observer
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/stor...,718312,00.html
This war on terrorism is bogus
The 9/11 attacks gave the US an ideal pretext to use force to secure its global domination
Michael Meacher
Saturday September 6, 2003
The Guardian
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/commen...1036687,00.html
The 9/11 attacks gave the US an ideal pretext to use force to secure its global domination
Michael Meacher
Saturday September 6, 2003
The Guardian
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/commen...1036687,00.html
Taking it step by step, do you accept this statement as being true :
THEY LET IT HAPPEN
(they knew about it and let it happen)
????
If yes, is this grounds enough to impeach & imprision ? Burn & Boil ?
Remember, it's not about Dubya. Dubya sat there reading "My Pet Goat" just like a kid whos Dad left him at the Barbershop, promising to pick him up in an hour.....but Dad never came back. Get it ?
THEY LET IT HAPPEN
(they knew about it and let it happen)
????
If yes, is this grounds enough to impeach & imprision ? Burn & Boil ?
Remember, it's not about Dubya. Dubya sat there reading "My Pet Goat" just like a kid whos Dad left him at the Barbershop, promising to pick him up in an hour.....but Dad never came back. Get it ?
QUOTE(JayHawk @ Friday, 19 May 2006, 3:16 pm) [snapback]58154[/snapback]
Taking it step by step, do you accept this statement as being true :
THEY LET IT HAPPEN
(they knew about it and let it happen)
????
If yes, is this grounds enough to impeach & impression ? Burn & Boil ?
Remember, it's not about Dubya. Dubya sat there reading "My Pet Goat" just like a kid who's Dad left him at the Barbershop, promising to pick him up in an hour.....but Dad never came back. Get it ?
I would say that Bush, Cheney, and select people of the FBI and CIA, and possibly some others, did know about the terrorists. After all, it is proved, people in the FBI did testify to as much in the Moussaoui trial, that their discoveries about the terrorists activities here in the USA prior to 9/11/01, were squelched.
As far as the day that their plan was to be enacted? I don't know and can not say that those who were at the top of our Government actually knew. However, Bush was not at all surprised during the attack, and became rather engaged with the children while reading, "My Pet Goat." Bush was so engaged with the children and showed little concern for their safety as his presence would put the children in peril, IF America was under attack. Normally, the SS should have whisked the president away from that location as to eliminate any possibility of assassination attempts, especially when America was under attack. WHERE'S THE URGENCY?
QUOTE(Jesus of Suburbia @ Friday, 19 May 2006, 12:53 pm) [snapback]58105[/snapback]
So are you on my side sky?
What i have already realized from this discussion is that everyone has vastly different ideas on what happened. Then again, none of us have any way of really knowing what happened exactly. I just try to base my ideas on this from Bush's reaction and what we know about these people. They are evil yes but are they really that evil?
Yes I'm on your side, if your side doesn't come to specific conclusions without conclusive proof.
Yes, if your side agree's that it is both clear and obvious that there are many unanswered questions.
Yes, if this leads you to the conclusion that there must be a reason there are so many unanswered questions, and that there are reasons the government as of yet, refuses to fully and openly investigate these clear an obvious questions.
Even if as of yet, I do not know what these reasons are, conclusively.
QUOTE(JayHawk @ Friday, 19 May 2006, 3:16 pm) [snapback]58154[/snapback]
Taking it step by step, do you accept this statement as being true :
THEY LET IT HAPPEN
(they knew about it and let it happen)
????
If yes, is this grounds enough to impeach & imprision ? Burn & Boil ?
Remember, it's not about Dubya. Dubya sat there reading "My Pet Goat" just like a kid whos Dad left him at the Barbershop, promising to pick him up in an hour.....but Dad never came back. Get it ?
I suspect that they let it happen.
I have no conclusive proof, but from what I have seen, and I recognise that odds are I have not seen everything, but from what I have seen and read, it seems to me as if they very well could have let it happen.
They had a motive, they had the ability, and they had the opportunity!
I believe in most cities that's enough for a D.A. to prosecute!
Hi All,
When I first saw Loose Change (before the second edition) I was skeptical too. But then I watched a video about JFK and I was almost sick. My whole life I had never understood why our political system seemed so backwards and for the first time I had a full dose of comprehension. Everything I saw in that video, I had remember seeing on the Discovery and History channel as a child. You can add many more pieces to the puzzle, this is a deep abyss. This isn't just one administration, its a cancer that has been allowed to grow for a very long time and rooting it out is going to be a very ugly process.
Here is the link if you have some time to kill, you may want to pause it and let it download for a while to keep the video moving smooth.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...2108031&pl=true
I know, I know Alex Jones is a little "out there" at times and it is definitly not an objective documentary, but I checked to make sure the evidence he puts forth exists and dam if he doesn't make a really good point.
When I first saw Loose Change (before the second edition) I was skeptical too. But then I watched a video about JFK and I was almost sick. My whole life I had never understood why our political system seemed so backwards and for the first time I had a full dose of comprehension. Everything I saw in that video, I had remember seeing on the Discovery and History channel as a child. You can add many more pieces to the puzzle, this is a deep abyss. This isn't just one administration, its a cancer that has been allowed to grow for a very long time and rooting it out is going to be a very ugly process.
Here is the link if you have some time to kill, you may want to pause it and let it download for a while to keep the video moving smooth.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...2108031&pl=true
I know, I know Alex Jones is a little "out there" at times and it is definitly not an objective documentary, but I checked to make sure the evidence he puts forth exists and dam if he doesn't make a really good point.
Saw it last year. It's a must see. Thanks BP.
http://mindprod.com/politics/bush911andrew...l#ANDREWJOHNSON
QUOTE
The Andrew Johnson Analogy
What if historians discovered that President Andrew Johnson, Lincoln's successor, had the following links with John Wilkes Booth, Lincoln's assassin?
You might ask, why am I babbling about hypothetical evidence against a perfectly reputable, long-dead, president. I did this to try to sneak past your mental defenses against thinking any ill of the Bush family. Most people are so convinced president Bush is a man of honour that they dismiss every piece of evidence to the contrary as irrelevant. They don't dispute it. They just dismiss it as an unimportant tatter of a crazy conspiracy theory. I decided to mildly disguise the evidence against George Bush Jr., to sneak it past your natural denial. If that sort of evidence would be enough to convict Andrew Johnson in the eyes of history, then surely it should be enough to trigger an investigation into the activities of the living George Bush Jr.
What if historians discovered that President Andrew Johnson, Lincoln's successor, had the following links with John Wilkes Booth, Lincoln's assassin?
1~What if ten years earlier, Johnson's father had hired and trained Booth as a spy/hit man?Do you think historians would have painted as rosy a picture of President Andrew Johnson as his contemporaries did?
2~What if Johnson's father had been implicated in an assassination attempt on President Franklin Pierce, when he was vice president?
3~What if Booth's and Johnson's fathers were business partners at the time of the assassination?
4~What if Johnson sent his secret service men to meet with John Wilkes Booth on Sunday 1865 February 5, 72 days prior to 1865 April 14 when Lincoln was assassinated. Even though was an outstanding warrant for Booth's arrest, they did not arrest him.
5~What if Johnson arranged meetings for all the cabinet during the week prior to the assassination with the man who gave Booth his gun collection, ammunition and get-away horse?
6~What if Johnson ordered the chief of police to stop a criminal investigation of Booth and his family just prior to the assassination?
7~What if Johnson provided a carriage for the Booth extended family to leave the area a few days before the assassination?
8~What if Johnson did nothing to stop the assassination, even though he saw Booth drawing his pistol?
9~What if Johnson ordered Lincoln's bodyguard to throw down his weapon, allowing Booth to continue with the assassination unimpeded?
10~What if Johnson kept watching the Ford Theatre play, laughing and smiling, both during and immediately after the assassination?
11~What if Johnson appointed a business associate of Booth's to head the assassination investigation?
12~What if after six months of fruitless "searching" for Booth, Johnson gave up the chase?“The most important thing is for us to find John Wilkes Booth. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him.”13~What if a little after a year, Johnson suddenly changed his mind and instead suddenly accused a black man, Soddy Hussem, of murdering Lincoln and lynched him without providing a scrap of evidence, then declared the case closed.
~ Andrew Johnson, 1884-04-17
“I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority.”
~ Andrew Johnson, 1885-10-16
You might ask, why am I babbling about hypothetical evidence against a perfectly reputable, long-dead, president. I did this to try to sneak past your mental defenses against thinking any ill of the Bush family. Most people are so convinced president Bush is a man of honour that they dismiss every piece of evidence to the contrary as irrelevant. They don't dispute it. They just dismiss it as an unimportant tatter of a crazy conspiracy theory. I decided to mildly disguise the evidence against George Bush Jr., to sneak it past your natural denial. If that sort of evidence would be enough to convict Andrew Johnson in the eyes of history, then surely it should be enough to trigger an investigation into the activities of the living George Bush Jr.
Very simply put:
"Who had the means?" "Who benefitted?" "Who had the power to cover it up."
First of all, we must rid ourselves of the notion that this is a democracy. It really hasn't been for many years, but as of December 2000, when the heretofore unheard of step of the Judiciary installing the Executive occured, the last major step (other than the burning of the Reichstag, that is!) was taken. The names of William Rehnquist, Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, Sandra Day O'Connor and Clarence Thomas will one day be reviled--because those five are responsible for the greatest hijacking of a nation that ever occured.
This all has its roots, unsurprisingly, with that lovely group of moralists known as the so-called "Bush Dynasty." While interested parties are free to research this group of criminals family tree, great-grandpappy Prescott Sheldon Bush violated the "Trading With The Enemies Act" right up until 1942, when a great measure of this lots fortunes were made thanks to the gold ripped out of the mouths of dead Jews made so by Zyklon B, a cyanide-based delousing agent manufactured by those sentimentalists at I.G. Farben under the watchful eye of Fritz Thyssen, a good friend of Prescott "Future U.S. Senator" Bush.
George Herbert Walker Bush, that esteemed man of Christian principles, got his political start from none other than Richard Milhous Nixon, former assistant to Joseph McCarthy, who, along with FBI Chief J. Edgar Hoover, noted the Machiavellian usefulness of the great scarecrow of the day called Communism, and weren't too particular about the methods they used to bring those damn commies down.
This of course leads us directly to John Fitzgerald Kennedy, the last real Democrat to hold office. Only liars, the incredibly stupid/wilfully blind/naive/denialists believe that Kennedy was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald or any other "lone gunman." The esteemed Senator Arlen Specter, the creator of the "magic bullet" theory, along with Gerald Ford--again with the assistance of Americas own Reinhard Heydrich J. Edgar Hoover, peddled the Warren Report to a very naive American people. Kennedy was in the way: Period. So he was murdered. So was Robert Kennedy. Malcom X. Martin Luther King, Jr. And anyone with any brains knows it.
This brings us into the full scale Vietnam conflict, where we lost our collective ass, and innumerable American soliders lost their lives. While this was going on, George Walker Bush was busy being AWOL from military service, snorting cocaine, drinking, and generally living the life of an amiable but stupid spoiled son of a future American President. It's no surprise that, as former Director of Central Intelligence Agency, George Herbert Walker Bush has maintained the position that "the files on the JFK assassination need to be kept sealed."
Gee, I wonder why. Do your research, find out a little more about this family.
After Nixon engineered Abe Fortas' falling from the U.S. Supreme Court, and William Rehnquist installed, the race began to change the nation forever. After Nixon fell, Ford filled his shoes until Carter came along, who would never have gotten there without the help of David Rockefeller (check out Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, and The Bilderberg group for their membership roster!)
Then the so-called "Reagan Revolution." A third-string talentless actor, who, with the help of Mafia Lawyer Sidney Korshak, successfully switched from Democrat to Republican. Reagan owed his career and fortune to Lew Wasserman (Bill Clinton once said of Wasserman: He helped me become president. He helped me stay president. He helped me be a better president.) who, as head of MCA, otherwise known as "The Octopus" enlisted a labor lawyer by the name of William French Smith and turned Reagan into a millionaire overnight. Smith would later be rewarded by Reagan by nominating him for the Attorney General.
Once the homeless and vagrants and mentally ill were swept up off the streets of Washington, Reagan and that old harridan Nancy, lived it up on the taxpayer tit for eight years, and Bush Sr. was installed as President after Reagan left office.
And so it goes. Clinton came along, a moderate Republican at best, and although eminently likeable, kept right on doing to this country what every chief executive has since the day John F. Kennedy died:
Allow corporate America to dictate what policy is in this nation. This, along with the banks, is what runs this nation, and is bent on ruling the entire globe.
Who Benefits?
Find the common threads...
"Who had the means?" "Who benefitted?" "Who had the power to cover it up."
First of all, we must rid ourselves of the notion that this is a democracy. It really hasn't been for many years, but as of December 2000, when the heretofore unheard of step of the Judiciary installing the Executive occured, the last major step (other than the burning of the Reichstag, that is!) was taken. The names of William Rehnquist, Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, Sandra Day O'Connor and Clarence Thomas will one day be reviled--because those five are responsible for the greatest hijacking of a nation that ever occured.
This all has its roots, unsurprisingly, with that lovely group of moralists known as the so-called "Bush Dynasty." While interested parties are free to research this group of criminals family tree, great-grandpappy Prescott Sheldon Bush violated the "Trading With The Enemies Act" right up until 1942, when a great measure of this lots fortunes were made thanks to the gold ripped out of the mouths of dead Jews made so by Zyklon B, a cyanide-based delousing agent manufactured by those sentimentalists at I.G. Farben under the watchful eye of Fritz Thyssen, a good friend of Prescott "Future U.S. Senator" Bush.
George Herbert Walker Bush, that esteemed man of Christian principles, got his political start from none other than Richard Milhous Nixon, former assistant to Joseph McCarthy, who, along with FBI Chief J. Edgar Hoover, noted the Machiavellian usefulness of the great scarecrow of the day called Communism, and weren't too particular about the methods they used to bring those damn commies down.
This of course leads us directly to John Fitzgerald Kennedy, the last real Democrat to hold office. Only liars, the incredibly stupid/wilfully blind/naive/denialists believe that Kennedy was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald or any other "lone gunman." The esteemed Senator Arlen Specter, the creator of the "magic bullet" theory, along with Gerald Ford--again with the assistance of Americas own Reinhard Heydrich J. Edgar Hoover, peddled the Warren Report to a very naive American people. Kennedy was in the way: Period. So he was murdered. So was Robert Kennedy. Malcom X. Martin Luther King, Jr. And anyone with any brains knows it.
This brings us into the full scale Vietnam conflict, where we lost our collective ass, and innumerable American soliders lost their lives. While this was going on, George Walker Bush was busy being AWOL from military service, snorting cocaine, drinking, and generally living the life of an amiable but stupid spoiled son of a future American President. It's no surprise that, as former Director of Central Intelligence Agency, George Herbert Walker Bush has maintained the position that "the files on the JFK assassination need to be kept sealed."
Gee, I wonder why. Do your research, find out a little more about this family.
After Nixon engineered Abe Fortas' falling from the U.S. Supreme Court, and William Rehnquist installed, the race began to change the nation forever. After Nixon fell, Ford filled his shoes until Carter came along, who would never have gotten there without the help of David Rockefeller (check out Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, and The Bilderberg group for their membership roster!)
Then the so-called "Reagan Revolution." A third-string talentless actor, who, with the help of Mafia Lawyer Sidney Korshak, successfully switched from Democrat to Republican. Reagan owed his career and fortune to Lew Wasserman (Bill Clinton once said of Wasserman: He helped me become president. He helped me stay president. He helped me be a better president.) who, as head of MCA, otherwise known as "The Octopus" enlisted a labor lawyer by the name of William French Smith and turned Reagan into a millionaire overnight. Smith would later be rewarded by Reagan by nominating him for the Attorney General.
Once the homeless and vagrants and mentally ill were swept up off the streets of Washington, Reagan and that old harridan Nancy, lived it up on the taxpayer tit for eight years, and Bush Sr. was installed as President after Reagan left office.
And so it goes. Clinton came along, a moderate Republican at best, and although eminently likeable, kept right on doing to this country what every chief executive has since the day John F. Kennedy died:
Allow corporate America to dictate what policy is in this nation. This, along with the banks, is what runs this nation, and is bent on ruling the entire globe.
Who Benefits?
Find the common threads...
First, welcome to the forum Neverman!
Second, I've read this before, and it's an excellent post!
Third, it's a good idea to supply a link to your source. This gives your post a level of credibility and an ability to be shared else where. After all, the point is to get the word out. The Credible Word!
Second, I've read this before, and it's an excellent post!
Third, it's a good idea to supply a link to your source. This gives your post a level of credibility and an ability to be shared else where. After all, the point is to get the word out. The Credible Word!
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Thursday, 6 July 2006, 12:10 pm) [snapback]62630[/snapback]
First, welcome to the forum Neverman!
Second, I've read this before, and it's an excellent post!
Third, it's a good idea to supply a link to your source. This gives your post a level of credibility and an ability to be shared else where. After all, the point is to get the word out. The Credible Word!
True. I like to go to the original article and site.
Second, I've read this before, and it's an excellent post!
Third, it's a good idea to supply a link to your source. This gives your post a level of credibility and an ability to be shared else where. After all, the point is to get the word out. The Credible Word!
Also, by inserting quoted material in a quote frame and including a link to the source of the quoted material, you help protect TJ from potential copyright infringement suits.
Just my opinions...
I don't think King George II knew anything. PNAC chose George because he is dumber than a box of rocks. They needed somebody stupid who would actually believe he was leading the country. They needed somebody who wouldn't have the brains to question them or search for the truth. They had to keep him in the dark about the whole thing because he doesn't have the brains to fake sincerity. He had to look genuinely shocked when it all went down. He also doesn't have the brains to handle tough questioning so he couldn't be trusted with any big secrets. If he'd have known about it, he would have botched the whole plan as soon as the "investigation" began.
I think it was no coincidence that he was sitting in that classroom in Sarasota that day. If he'd been in Washington or anywhere else, in a group of adults, he could have excused himself and ordered NORAD to shoot down the planes. He had to be with children to give him an "out". They made sure he was in the company of children so he could use the excuse that he didn't want to alarm them.
It's been the same tactic they've used for years to BS the sheeple. Everything they do is supposedly for our protection, but it's really all about money and power. These people have no regard for the average American. They didn't care about the human lives lost. They're driven by the highest level of greed imaginable. They don't care what happens to this country because when it's all over, they'll retire somewhere else in the world with incredible wealth.
If terrorists were actually trying to attack this country and kill a lot of people, if they REALLY wanted to cause death and devastation, they'd have slammed those planes into the Indian Point nuke plant. They didn't want that. They wanted something just big enough to shock the shit out of the world and no bigger. They wanted to scare us enough to get permission to go to war with countries that have oil. Oil = money and power.
We have witnessed and been the victims of the queen mother of all scams. Impeachment won't change a thing. George is just the fool they chose to put out in front of the world to do the song and dance. As long as the PNAC and others in powerful positions continue to hold the strings, this evil machine will continue to run it's course and destroy this country as we know it.
I certainly don't have the answers and I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I sure as hell don't believe the stories we've been fed by the corporate controlled mainstream media. Building 7 fell for a reason; I'd guess there was a LOT of damning evidence in it that had to be destroyed. No plane hit the Pentagon. No WMD's have turned up. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and posed no threat to us. Nobody has looked for Osama since the first missle was fired in Iraq. Now the CIA closed the book on Osama altogether. How much more obvious does it really have to be that we've all been scammed and lied to for years?
It's like you've got a neighbor whose friend assaults your children so you go to the neighbor's house. His friend who assaulted your children is nowhere around so you assault the neighbor. Then you go to a different neighbor's house and kick his ass, insisting that he has a dangerous weapon and he helped the first neighbor's friend assault your children. You insist that he is a threat to your family because of the weapon he has even though you never find the weapon. Of course, while you're at the second neighbor's house assaulting him, his family puts up a fight so you call them evil because of their resistance to your assault. Now why doesn't everybody in the rest of the neighberhood think you're a hero? Why does over half of your own family also think you're an asshole?
I don't think King George II knew anything. PNAC chose George because he is dumber than a box of rocks. They needed somebody stupid who would actually believe he was leading the country. They needed somebody who wouldn't have the brains to question them or search for the truth. They had to keep him in the dark about the whole thing because he doesn't have the brains to fake sincerity. He had to look genuinely shocked when it all went down. He also doesn't have the brains to handle tough questioning so he couldn't be trusted with any big secrets. If he'd have known about it, he would have botched the whole plan as soon as the "investigation" began.
I think it was no coincidence that he was sitting in that classroom in Sarasota that day. If he'd been in Washington or anywhere else, in a group of adults, he could have excused himself and ordered NORAD to shoot down the planes. He had to be with children to give him an "out". They made sure he was in the company of children so he could use the excuse that he didn't want to alarm them.
It's been the same tactic they've used for years to BS the sheeple. Everything they do is supposedly for our protection, but it's really all about money and power. These people have no regard for the average American. They didn't care about the human lives lost. They're driven by the highest level of greed imaginable. They don't care what happens to this country because when it's all over, they'll retire somewhere else in the world with incredible wealth.
If terrorists were actually trying to attack this country and kill a lot of people, if they REALLY wanted to cause death and devastation, they'd have slammed those planes into the Indian Point nuke plant. They didn't want that. They wanted something just big enough to shock the shit out of the world and no bigger. They wanted to scare us enough to get permission to go to war with countries that have oil. Oil = money and power.
We have witnessed and been the victims of the queen mother of all scams. Impeachment won't change a thing. George is just the fool they chose to put out in front of the world to do the song and dance. As long as the PNAC and others in powerful positions continue to hold the strings, this evil machine will continue to run it's course and destroy this country as we know it.
I certainly don't have the answers and I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I sure as hell don't believe the stories we've been fed by the corporate controlled mainstream media. Building 7 fell for a reason; I'd guess there was a LOT of damning evidence in it that had to be destroyed. No plane hit the Pentagon. No WMD's have turned up. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and posed no threat to us. Nobody has looked for Osama since the first missle was fired in Iraq. Now the CIA closed the book on Osama altogether. How much more obvious does it really have to be that we've all been scammed and lied to for years?
It's like you've got a neighbor whose friend assaults your children so you go to the neighbor's house. His friend who assaulted your children is nowhere around so you assault the neighbor. Then you go to a different neighbor's house and kick his ass, insisting that he has a dangerous weapon and he helped the first neighbor's friend assault your children. You insist that he is a threat to your family because of the weapon he has even though you never find the weapon. Of course, while you're at the second neighbor's house assaulting him, his family puts up a fight so you call them evil because of their resistance to your assault. Now why doesn't everybody in the rest of the neighberhood think you're a hero? Why does over half of your own family also think you're an asshole?
Sweet post, Rooby, great job and well put. It pretty much sums up my own feelings.
Well stated Rube. Though I may not fully agree with everything you said, I also can't disagree.
But, how to change what's happening.
There are but only 2 options.
One, the most direct, is not a viable option and a discussion of this direct option is not permitted on this forum.
Don't even go there!
Second, is to use the system that is provided, just as they have. It's much slower and costly. It's a way that guarantees more pain and frustration. But, it's the only other viable option we have at this time.
To begin, I think of this situation in terms of analogy, and the analogy that fits is that of a huge ship. I Mega massive Cruise liner filled with people, most of whom have no idea where the boat is headed, who is driving, and what their agenda is. Now do they care, just as long as the pool is warm and the beers are free!
From this beginning anyone can fill in the analogous picture any way they wish, and it works.
Using the analogy then, since we can't burn the ship down and then rebuild it pointed in the correct dirrection, we must then find a way, either through direct action or indirect manipulation learn how to cause this huge megaliner to change course. "THEY" figured out how to get the boat on the course it's on today, one that most of us feel is headed for the rocks, if they can do it, then so can we!
Removing the analogy then, we are left with the reality that we have to work with what we have to work with. The tools are all there. We have to understand as well, they "THEY" aren't gonna sit still and just LET "US" do what ever we can. "THEY" are going to actively do everything they can to block anything we do!
This battle for the course of the country, shall it continue right into Fascism? Or will the big boat change directions and head back towards Democratic Socialism? Or maybe even head in a new direction all together? That battle will be fought over the next 2 years, and beyond, but the main fight is now and the next 30 months or so.
It's interesting to me, and maybe this illustrates just how fucked up I am, but I read the news several hours a day. I read the analisis from many angles, and I predict the future in my mind. And when I do, I think of Obi Wan advising Luke to "Use the Force" In other words, trust my instincts.
Though I have confidence that we will eventually defeat the "Dark Lord" (Cheney), I also believe that those human realities that gave him the power he has today will remain for centuries, if ever.
So, this is why my Signature says what it does.
But, how to change what's happening.
There are but only 2 options.
One, the most direct, is not a viable option and a discussion of this direct option is not permitted on this forum.
Don't even go there!
Second, is to use the system that is provided, just as they have. It's much slower and costly. It's a way that guarantees more pain and frustration. But, it's the only other viable option we have at this time.
To begin, I think of this situation in terms of analogy, and the analogy that fits is that of a huge ship. I Mega massive Cruise liner filled with people, most of whom have no idea where the boat is headed, who is driving, and what their agenda is. Now do they care, just as long as the pool is warm and the beers are free!
From this beginning anyone can fill in the analogous picture any way they wish, and it works.
Using the analogy then, since we can't burn the ship down and then rebuild it pointed in the correct dirrection, we must then find a way, either through direct action or indirect manipulation learn how to cause this huge megaliner to change course. "THEY" figured out how to get the boat on the course it's on today, one that most of us feel is headed for the rocks, if they can do it, then so can we!
Removing the analogy then, we are left with the reality that we have to work with what we have to work with. The tools are all there. We have to understand as well, they "THEY" aren't gonna sit still and just LET "US" do what ever we can. "THEY" are going to actively do everything they can to block anything we do!
This battle for the course of the country, shall it continue right into Fascism? Or will the big boat change directions and head back towards Democratic Socialism? Or maybe even head in a new direction all together? That battle will be fought over the next 2 years, and beyond, but the main fight is now and the next 30 months or so.
It's interesting to me, and maybe this illustrates just how fucked up I am, but I read the news several hours a day. I read the analisis from many angles, and I predict the future in my mind. And when I do, I think of Obi Wan advising Luke to "Use the Force" In other words, trust my instincts.
Though I have confidence that we will eventually defeat the "Dark Lord" (Cheney), I also believe that those human realities that gave him the power he has today will remain for centuries, if ever.
So, this is why my Signature says what it does.
QUOTE(Max-1 @ Friday, 19 May 2006, 4:40 pm) [snapback]58165[/snapback]
Bush was not at all surprised during the attack, and became rather engaged with the children while reading, "My Pet Goat." Bush was so engaged with the children and showed little concern for their safety as his presence would put the children in peril,
The footage that i have seen only shows staring off into space after he is told, not reading the book. Not unless you have seen more than i have?
QUOTE(Jack @ Sunday, 9 July 2006, 12:00 pm) [snapback]62927[/snapback]
The footage that i have seen only shows staring off into space after he is told, not reading the book. Not unless you have seen more than i have?
http://oldamericancentury.org/bb/index.php?showtopic=9609
This includes several videos of the day at the school.
Bush's reactions were all over the place.
First he starts out all happy to see them, even after being briefed by Condi Rice that one plane stuck WTC.
Then he's engaged with the intro of the program and the children's learning program.
Andy Card whispers in Bush's ear and Bush seems to gaze off for about 30 seconds as the children grab their books and begin to read. Once the children begin to read, Bush grabs his book and reads a long.
Later, he is seen re-engaged with the kids, laughing, smiling, asking questions of the kids. And then the photo op is over, he gets up and shakes the teachers hand, has a brief discussion and then leaves.
SOME 20+ minutes later, the President enters a room jammed packed with reporters and journalists, teachers and parents, and children and teachers as the back drop to his 9:30am speech. "America is under attack"
WTF??? Then why was he allowed to remain at a well publicized place? Why didn't the Secret Service evacuate the President and the populace in the school? How did the S.S. know, KNOW that by doing nothing, everyone was going to be A-o.k.? NORAD was already aware of up to 21 possible hijacked aircraft by around 9:20am that day. Later it turned out that the majority were blips place there by the DoD's terrorist exorcises running that day. But in light of the exorcises, it was known that some planes were not responding and subsequently hitting buildings. By 9:05am, TWO planes had already struck, maybe more were hijacked.
THE GUARD DOG DID NOT BARK
At this point the Civil Air Controllers already knew about 2 more hijacked planes, possibly 3 more.
At this point Dick is supposedly in the Whitehouse Basement Bunker giving orders to shoot them all down!
There is very little likihood that the Secret Service was not aware of more planes.
Why they did not act at Booker is very puzzling!
At this point Dick is supposedly in the Whitehouse Basement Bunker giving orders to shoot them all down!
There is very little likihood that the Secret Service was not aware of more planes.
Why they did not act at Booker is very puzzling!
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Sunday, 9 July 2006, 4:57 pm) [snapback]62946[/snapback]
At this point the Civil Air Controllers already knew about 2 more hijacked planes, possibly 3 more.
At this point Dick is supposedly in the Whitehouse Basement Bunker giving orders to shoot them all down!
There is very little likihood that the Secret Service was not aware of more planes.
Why they did not act at Booker is very puzzling!
EXCELLENT POST SKY!!!!!!!At this point Dick is supposedly in the Whitehouse Basement Bunker giving orders to shoot them all down!
There is very little likihood that the Secret Service was not aware of more planes.
Why they did not act at Booker is very puzzling!
If the V.P. was evacuated to a bunker, why wasn't the President????
QUOTE(Max-1 @ Sunday, 28 May 2006, 11:34 am) [snapback]59635[/snapback]
Actually, although all the information was gleaned from dozens of sources, the words are mine, and I've never published it elsewhere. I've got all this stuff rolling around in my head, and would *love* to write a book in the standard format, complete with bibliography, but studying for the bar exam after years of being back in school has precluded me from so doing...
QUOTE(rooby roo @ Sunday, 9 July 2006, 8:14 am) [snapback]62899[/snapback]
Also, by inserting quoted material in a quote frame and including a link to the source of the quoted material, you help protect TJ from potential copyright infringement suits.
Wow, nice to see you again!
Goddamn! I've been reading these posts and can only say, I'm amazed at the profound stupidity of most of you morons. You people need to get a life.
I signed up here today because I enjoy a good, intellectual discussion...but I can see there's very little intellect here. So, see you in Hell, assholes!!!
GSApe, signing off.
I signed up here today because I enjoy a good, intellectual discussion...but I can see there's very little intellect here. So, see you in Hell, assholes!!!
GSApe, signing off.
QUOTE(GutshotApe @ Thursday, 13 July 2006, 8:12 pm) [snapback]63427[/snapback]
Goddamn! I've been reading these posts and can only say, I'm amazed at the profound stupidity of most of you morons. You people need to get a life.
I signed up here today because I enjoy a good, intellectual discussion...but I can see there's very little intellect here. So, see you in Hell, assholes!!!
GSApe, signing off.
Good, intellectual discussion?
Well, I guess you just epitomized it.
QUOTE(GutshotApe @ Thursday, 13 July 2006, 7:12 pm) [snapback]63427[/snapback]
Goddamn! I've been reading these posts and can only say, I'm amazed at the profound stupidity of most of you morons. You people need to get a life.
I signed up here today because I enjoy a good, intellectual discussion...but I can see there's very little intellect here. So, see you in Hell, assholes!!!
GSApe, signing off.
You consider THIS to be your most intellektual summation of all that you see here?
That's Deep man! Good thing I got boots!
QUOTE(GutshotApe @ Thursday, 13 July 2006, 7:12 pm) [snapback]63427[/snapback]
Goddamn! I've been reading these posts and can only say, I'm amazed at the profound stupidity of most of you morons. You people need to get a life.
I signed up here today because I enjoy a good, intellectual discussion...but I can see there's very little intellect here. So, see you in Hell, assholes!!!
GSApe, signing off.
KTHX BI I signed up here today because I enjoy a good, intellectual discussion...but I can see there's very little intellect here. So, see you in Hell, assholes!!!
GSApe, signing off.
Sorry you don't want to engage in intellectual discussion with morons of profound stupidity with no life.
And now that you won't be staying, I guess there be more or less intellectual discussion going on.
I wouldn't know though, after all being a moron of profound stupidity with no life I only live under a rock.
http://unsungwar.com/2006/05/911-whistlebl...drew-grove.html
From 911Blogger.com:
"From The Meria Heller Show - http://www.Meria.net
This man, Richard Andrew Grove, a whistleblower who worked for the big boys and money people behind 9/11 has come out with information to set the 9/11 movement on fire.
Although many have rejected his work (too busy, big egos, whatever) including the IRS, Treasury Dept and SEC, what he exposes on Marsh & McLellan, AIG, Dyncorp, Spitzer, Stewart Air Force Base, Fitzgerald, Bremer, missing gold and bucks of 9/11, software that predicts the future and more will ASTOUND YOU as it did me. I will be having him live on the show in June, but wanted you to hear this urgent information immediately. That is why I worked on it all day.
If you are a journalist, blogger, etc., DO NOT think this is a ruse. I expect you to LISTEN intently to what this man is presenting and act on it.
If you are a friend, subscriber, past guest, listen and then relisten. Pass it on to every outlet and every email list, group you have. This information is EXPLOSIVE. The more of us that know this information, the greater the chances I won't be killed for presenting it, and the greater the chances for a real revolution in America's thinking processes. Go beyond the explosions, destruction of evidence, etc., and learn who BENEFITTED and HOW on 9/11 to find out who the Corporate Fundamentalists are that were behind it all."
You can listen to the interview here:
Click here
=====================
OMFG!!!!
This two hour statement tells
HOW THEY SOLE/ROBBED THE PROVERBIAL FORT KNOX.
From 911Blogger.com:
"From The Meria Heller Show - http://www.Meria.net
This man, Richard Andrew Grove, a whistleblower who worked for the big boys and money people behind 9/11 has come out with information to set the 9/11 movement on fire.
Although many have rejected his work (too busy, big egos, whatever) including the IRS, Treasury Dept and SEC, what he exposes on Marsh & McLellan, AIG, Dyncorp, Spitzer, Stewart Air Force Base, Fitzgerald, Bremer, missing gold and bucks of 9/11, software that predicts the future and more will ASTOUND YOU as it did me. I will be having him live on the show in June, but wanted you to hear this urgent information immediately. That is why I worked on it all day.
If you are a journalist, blogger, etc., DO NOT think this is a ruse. I expect you to LISTEN intently to what this man is presenting and act on it.
If you are a friend, subscriber, past guest, listen and then relisten. Pass it on to every outlet and every email list, group you have. This information is EXPLOSIVE. The more of us that know this information, the greater the chances I won't be killed for presenting it, and the greater the chances for a real revolution in America's thinking processes. Go beyond the explosions, destruction of evidence, etc., and learn who BENEFITTED and HOW on 9/11 to find out who the Corporate Fundamentalists are that were behind it all."
You can listen to the interview here:
Click here
=====================
OMFG!!!!
This two hour statement tells
HOW THEY SOLE/ROBBED THE PROVERBIAL FORT KNOX.
QUOTE(nygreenguy @ Wednesday, 2 August 2006, 9:05 pm) [snapback]66357[/snapback]
http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html
The few pieces of the first article I looked at completely missed the point or used equally dusbious evidence to debunk dubious evidence.
Example 1: his photoshops of what it would look like if there were EXPLOSIVES in the towers - showing red fireballs shooting out of the smoke clouds.
If the author knew anything about thermite, which is what would have been used - it doesn't not explode, it burns. It's used for cutting not exploding - like cutting beams or pillars. If he really familiarized himself with the issue he would be able to find several video of the building shotly before collapse that show what looks like thermite sparks coming from around the several of the extrerior columns.
I can debunk his debunking (rebunk?) with one simple argment. All of the buildings you've seen demolished, ever seen a fire ball shoot out of one?
Example 2: his critique of the Pentagon no-plane theory he points out that that particular plane was equipped with Rolls Royse engines not GE engines. He acts as though that is all he needs to point out to completely debunk the theory - as if Rolls Royce jet engine are so inherently different from GE engines that they would have melted in conditions that the GE engine would not have.
Example 3: he attacks a statement that jet fuel at the Pentagon would not have reached a high enough temperature to vaporize the plane. The quote from the movie is something like "Kerosene would only reach 1440 degrees after 40 minutes in a pure oxygen environment if the fuel supply is maintained.
The author of that article says "Wow, boy that jet fuel sure took a long time to heat up"
Clearly the point is not that it would take that long for the fuel to reach that temperature. The point is that the material to be vaporized would have to reach a temperature HIGHER than the 1440 degrees that jet fuel burns at in order to vaporize in the 40 minutes it took for the fire department to begin to get the fire under control. Additionally the fuel supply would have to be maintained for that 40 minutes.
Those are the only three links I clicked on there. Keep in mind I fully believe that Flight 77 did hit the Pentagon, I just felt that I needed to point out how his debunking is misleading.
As for the PM article, it has been debunked 1000 times, I won't bother, only point out something I learned that I don't see many people mention about it.
The credited author for that article is Ben Chertoff, he is first cousin to Michael Chertoff - that Michael Chertoff.
Not saying it's a conspiracy, just another one of those crazy coincidences...
QUOTE(Jimmy @ Wednesday, 2 August 2006, 8:32 pm) [snapback]66369[/snapback]
The few pieces of the first article I looked at completely missed the point or used equally dusbious evidence to debunk dubious evidence.
Example 1: his photoshops of what it would look like if there were EXPLOSIVES in the towers - showing red fireballs shooting out of the smoke clouds.
If the author knew anything about thermite, which is what would have been used - it doesn't not explode, it burns. It's used for cutting not exploding - like cutting beams or pillars. If he really familiarized himself with the issue he would be able to find several video of the building shotly before collapse that show what looks like thermite sparks coming from around the several of the extrerior columns.
I can debunk his debunking (rebunk?) with one simple argment. All of the buildings you've seen demolished, ever seen a fire ball shoot out of one?
Example 2: his critique of the Pentagon no-plane theory he points out that that particular plane was equipped with Rolls Royse engines not GE engines. He acts as though that is all he needs to point out to completely debunk the theory - as if Rolls Royce jet engine are so inherently different from GE engines that they would have melted in conditions that the GE engine would not have.
Example 3: he attacks a statement that jet fuel at the Pentagon would not have reached a high enough temperature to vaporize the plane. The quote from the movie is something like "Kerosene would only reach 1440 degrees after 40 minutes in a pure oxygen environment if the fuel supply is maintained.
The author of that article says "Wow, boy that jet fuel sure took a long time to heat up"
Clearly the point is not that it would take that long for the fuel to reach that temperature. The point is that the material to be vaporized would have to reach a temperature HIGHER than the 1440 degrees that jet fuel burns at in order to vaporize in the 40 minutes it took for the fire department to begin to get the fire under control. Additionally the fuel supply would have to be maintained for that 40 minutes.
Those are the only three links I clicked on there. Keep in mind I fully believe that Flight 77 did hit the Pentagon, I just felt that I needed to point out how his debunking is misleading.
As for the PM article, it has been debunked 1000 times, I won't bother, only point out something I learned that I don't see many people mention about it.
The credited author for that article is Ben Chertoff, he is first cousin to Michael Chertoff - that Michael Chertoff.
Not saying it's a conspiracy, just another one of those crazy coincidences...
(5 out of 5) AND THAT's for you Jimmy. Great job on the obvious misleading untruths being pawned off as actualities. WAIT......
5 more for just because you're you.
http://www.911independentcommission.org/index.html
These ARE the unanswered questions from the very group of people that spearheaded the inquiry as to WHY the Administration wasn't investigating 9/11. This IS the 12 member group that threatened the lawsuit against the Administration.
These ARE the unanswered questions from the very group of people that spearheaded the inquiry as to WHY the Administration wasn't investigating 9/11. This IS the 12 member group that threatened the lawsuit against the Administration.
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?
by Steven E. Jones
In this paper, I call for a serious investigation of the hypothesis that WTC 7 and the Twin Towers were brought down, not just by impact damage and fires, but through the use of pre-positioned cutter-charges. I consider the official FEMA, NIST, and 9-11 Commission reports that fires plus impact damage alone caused complete collapses of all three buildings. And I present evidence for the controlled-demolition hypothesis, which is suggested by the available data, testable and falsifiable, and yet has not been analyzed in any of the reports funded by the US government.
Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?
by Steven E. Jones
In this paper, I call for a serious investigation of the hypothesis that WTC 7 and the Twin Towers were brought down, not just by impact damage and fires, but through the use of pre-positioned cutter-charges. I consider the official FEMA, NIST, and 9-11 Commission reports that fires plus impact damage alone caused complete collapses of all three buildings. And I present evidence for the controlled-demolition hypothesis, which is suggested by the available data, testable and falsifiable, and yet has not been analyzed in any of the reports funded by the US government.
http://colorado.indymedia.org/newswire/dis...14211/index.php
9/11 Airplane Impact Time Discrepancies: Smoking Gun - US Gov't Complicity
author: Craig T. Furlong e-mail:e-mail: cfurlong1 (at) socal.rr.com, The facts are simple and few, yet extremely powerful for what they mean: US Government complicity in 9/11/01.
Facts by themselves are simple and powerful, but these facts lead to a true smoking gun. I know of no other regarding 9/11. Do you? A smoking gun that can be given in a court of law?
What is presented here is no theory. It is factual data of "impact times" from Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University (LDEO) that differs significantly from factual data of impact times given in the 9/11 Commission's Final Report.
LDEO
Link: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html
(note: all times precise to plus or minus 1 to 2 seconds)
9/11 Commission Timeline
Link: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html
(note: both impact times are the only ones on the page precise to the second)
This is the data wherein lies the controversy:
["Impact Times"]
LDEO
8:46:26 and 9:02:54
[Actual Impact Times]
9/11 Commission
8:46:40 and 9:03:11
Respective Differences
14 seconds
17 seconds
After reflecting upon these timing discrepancies and what they mean, indicting evidence appears of something very wrong with the official explanation about what happened. Lest we forget, America still owes it to those who perished on 9/11, and their families and friends, to get to the bottom of this; justice has yet to be served on those responsible.
Both impacts are important. This happened twice, and comparing LDEO versus the 9/11 Commission Report, there are similar time disparities (respective differences of 14 and 17 seconds). Consider these as extremely close to the precise differential, because when consideration is given to the seismic wave, amplitude, and duration, understand that the dominant period is extremely short and occurs near the beginning of the signal.
We have LDEO on record stating times of plus or minus 1 to 2 seconds, which is a high degree of precision. Would they publish if a 95% level of confidence had not been achieved for the data? Probably not. LDEO was then (and still is) a prestigious scientific entity; and no one has challenged their data for 9/11/01 (at least to my knowledge). We should trust their seismic data.
Is there any expected time delay between the initiation of the "impact" pulse and the reception of the seismic signal? From my study, it is my understanding this factor is already accounted for in the software logic used. Besides, even if this were a factor, it would make the disparity greater yielding even greater time differences; however, the differences we already have are compelling.
Here are two questions:
(1) Is there any motive behind having two sets of impact times?
(2) What is the significance, if any, of having two different sets of impact times?
Addressing Question (1): Motive probably had nothing to do with our now having two different sets of impact times; also, more than likely, no one lied in all of this with the information each entity published. Probably the 9/11 Commission made a simple error of missed oversight. They should have noticed the disparity in impact times and looked into the matter. This is their error. They never saw the disparities, or, if they did, they never attempted to resolve them. Then, years later, somebody notices it by happenstance. The Commission either did not care, did not bother to ask LDEO, did not consider it at all, or, more than likely, was not even aware of the Lamont-Doherty seismic data regarding "impact times". If they had known, someone at the Commission would probably have envisioned possible future repercussions of having two sets of factual data on impact times (such as is happening now). This would be (and now is) a conflict of data from two highly reliable sources—something that is to be avoided in one's life and affairs. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
The problem probably came about by having two different groups of people working during two different time periods. They just happened to intersect on a single data point [aircraft impact time] by either accident, neglect, or whatever. Actually, it was the Commission who did the "intersecting" as LDEO was published long before the Commission came into being. LDEO did their job on 9/11 and believed at the time that their seismic data, precise to the second, represented the impacts on the towers (this is key because what they thought were "impacts" is now brought into question). Another key here is "at the time". Think about it. LDEO had these two small seismic spikes at the general time of the impacts, so they must have naturally thought they were the impacts. This is understandable, especially in the light of that horrible day.
However, the 9/11 Commission precision times came much later, at a different time period, and only after much analysis and effort. They are basically based upon: "We have determined that the impact time was 9:03:11 based on our analysis of FAA radar data and air traffic control software logic." [9/11 Commission Report, pg 460, Note 130]:
http://www.insightful.com/infact/911/corpu...rt_470_460.html
(Note 130 is the basis for WTC1 & WTC2 precision impact times to the second)
This is an entirely different set of data than LDEO, but it too is highly accurate and precise; e.g., consider the technology needed and used in the space program; and although different, these technologies are similar in many ways; and one critical way they are similar is that they both must be precise in the area of timing; and so they are.
So, this is probably how these two extremely precise but different data sets came about for the same event (plane impact) and appear before us now. However, it does not matter how they came into being. What is important is that both sets are to the precise second.
Also critical is: Are the two data sets correct?
As pointed out above, the LDEO set should be correct. The 9/11 Commission's set should be trustworthy as well. This is because both entities' came up with their data under similar conditions and constraints: required, high precision parameters; working in the face of high visibility in the wake of a national tragedy; and finally, there is the general understanding of what these entities were attempting to do (i.e., to get it right). There is no reason to disbelieve either data set.
Addressing Question (2): What is the significance, if any, of the different impact times?
Yes, there is significance, and it goes to another level. This is the heart of the matter.
The Commission Report must have the correct impact times because this is what they were specifically looking at: flight data that ultimately ended at precise terminations (to the second) when the towers were struck. There is no question here: precisely, AA Flight 77 crashed at 8:46:40 and UA Flight 175 at 9:03:11 [EDT]. So, if the planes impacted the towers at those times, what were the earlier times as noted by LDEO due to notable seismic spikes?
On an aside, what first caught my eye last week about this was the implausibility of "impact times" by LDEO. I thought, "How can such a huge jet airliner impact WTC1 above the 90th floor and we end up with energy transference traveling all the way down to the earth (even through the massive multi-level sub-basement structure) sufficiently so as to be picked up by LDEO as a seismic spike?" This still makes no sense. Energy from the impact should have been mostly absorbed by the building's immense structure and mass.
Then I recalled my reading a while back about accounts of people who experienced explosions down in the basements before the planes struck. The following is an excerpt about one of them, an eyewitness at WTC1 by the name of William Rodriguez:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Spingola/deanna17.htm
-------
Arriving at 8:30 on the morning of 9-11 he went to the maintenance office located on the first sublevel, one of six sub-basements beneath ground level. There were a total of fourteen people in the office at that same time. As he was discussing the day's tasks with others, there was a very loud massive explosion which seemed to emanate from between sub-basement B2 and B3. There were an additional twenty-two people on B2 sub-basement who also felt and heard that first explosion.
At first he thought it was a generator that had exploded. But the cement walls in the office cracked from the explosion. "When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and everything started shaking." said Rodriguez, who was crowded together with fourteen other people in the office including Anthony Saltamachia, his supervisor for the American Building Maintenance Company.
Just seconds later there was another explosion way above which made the building oscillate momentarily. This, he was later told, was a plane hitting the tower at about the 90th floor. Upon hearing about the plane, he immediately thought of the people up in the restaurant. Then there were other explosions just above B1 and individuals started heading for the loading dock to escape the explosion's resulting rampant fire. When asked later about those first explosions he said: "I would know if an explosion was from the bottom or the top of the building." He heard explosions both before and after the plane hit the tower.
-------
This provides the plausible answer as to what LDEO picked up as a seismic spike moments before the plane struck the tower.
Again, the question: What caused the earlier seismic spike picked up by LDEO?
There are only two logical choices: either (A) a true seismic event (a very small earthquake tremor; and, yes, this choice would mean discounting the eyewitnesses who said explosions happened before the plane struck; i.e., they are not telling the truth), or (
very large explosion(s).
It could not possibly have been a very small earthquake. Why? Because this same, exact scenario happened again a few minutes later at WTC2, both spikes occurring within a brief 15-minute period under the most unusual circumstances. The odds of this happening by chance go beyond the pale of the realms of possibility (you don't need to be a statistician to see this). This only happens when man is involved.
The earlier seismic spikes had to have been (: very large explosion(s), which Middle Eastern terrorists could not have been responsible for. That is no question; they do not have the wherewithal for this kind of scale.
This is what really happened:
Explosion(s) Meant to Coincide... ... ... ... ...
["Impact Times"]
LDEO
8:46:26 and 9:02:54
Respective Differences
14 seconds
17 seconds
with.... ... ... ... ... Planes Impacting Towers
[Actual Impact Times]
9/11 Commission
8:46:40 and 9:03:11
(The explosions were probably done to prepare the buildings for final controlled demolition later by implosion.)
To sum up:
This is no conspiracy theory. Why?
This is not theory. These are facts, simple and few.
But it is definitely a conspiracy.
And this isn't rocket science.
(This is the smoking gun, it has legs, and this dog can hunt.)
What must be done? Simply one thing:
The 9/11 Commission and the Bush Administration must answer the question:
WHAT CAUSED THOSE SEISMIC SPIKES?
They must answer, and they must answer now; if they do not, it is the same thing as an admission of guilt.
God help us all.
Craig T. Furlong
July 31, 2006
9/11 Airplane Impact Time Discrepancies: Smoking Gun - US Gov't Complicity
author: Craig T. Furlong e-mail:e-mail: cfurlong1 (at) socal.rr.com, The facts are simple and few, yet extremely powerful for what they mean: US Government complicity in 9/11/01.
Facts by themselves are simple and powerful, but these facts lead to a true smoking gun. I know of no other regarding 9/11. Do you? A smoking gun that can be given in a court of law?
What is presented here is no theory. It is factual data of "impact times" from Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University (LDEO) that differs significantly from factual data of impact times given in the 9/11 Commission's Final Report.
LDEO
Link: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html
(note: all times precise to plus or minus 1 to 2 seconds)
9/11 Commission Timeline
Link: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html
(note: both impact times are the only ones on the page precise to the second)
This is the data wherein lies the controversy:
["Impact Times"]
LDEO
8:46:26 and 9:02:54
[Actual Impact Times]
9/11 Commission
8:46:40 and 9:03:11
Respective Differences
14 seconds
17 seconds
After reflecting upon these timing discrepancies and what they mean, indicting evidence appears of something very wrong with the official explanation about what happened. Lest we forget, America still owes it to those who perished on 9/11, and their families and friends, to get to the bottom of this; justice has yet to be served on those responsible.
Both impacts are important. This happened twice, and comparing LDEO versus the 9/11 Commission Report, there are similar time disparities (respective differences of 14 and 17 seconds). Consider these as extremely close to the precise differential, because when consideration is given to the seismic wave, amplitude, and duration, understand that the dominant period is extremely short and occurs near the beginning of the signal.
We have LDEO on record stating times of plus or minus 1 to 2 seconds, which is a high degree of precision. Would they publish if a 95% level of confidence had not been achieved for the data? Probably not. LDEO was then (and still is) a prestigious scientific entity; and no one has challenged their data for 9/11/01 (at least to my knowledge). We should trust their seismic data.
Is there any expected time delay between the initiation of the "impact" pulse and the reception of the seismic signal? From my study, it is my understanding this factor is already accounted for in the software logic used. Besides, even if this were a factor, it would make the disparity greater yielding even greater time differences; however, the differences we already have are compelling.
Here are two questions:
(1) Is there any motive behind having two sets of impact times?
(2) What is the significance, if any, of having two different sets of impact times?
Addressing Question (1): Motive probably had nothing to do with our now having two different sets of impact times; also, more than likely, no one lied in all of this with the information each entity published. Probably the 9/11 Commission made a simple error of missed oversight. They should have noticed the disparity in impact times and looked into the matter. This is their error. They never saw the disparities, or, if they did, they never attempted to resolve them. Then, years later, somebody notices it by happenstance. The Commission either did not care, did not bother to ask LDEO, did not consider it at all, or, more than likely, was not even aware of the Lamont-Doherty seismic data regarding "impact times". If they had known, someone at the Commission would probably have envisioned possible future repercussions of having two sets of factual data on impact times (such as is happening now). This would be (and now is) a conflict of data from two highly reliable sources—something that is to be avoided in one's life and affairs. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
The problem probably came about by having two different groups of people working during two different time periods. They just happened to intersect on a single data point [aircraft impact time] by either accident, neglect, or whatever. Actually, it was the Commission who did the "intersecting" as LDEO was published long before the Commission came into being. LDEO did their job on 9/11 and believed at the time that their seismic data, precise to the second, represented the impacts on the towers (this is key because what they thought were "impacts" is now brought into question). Another key here is "at the time". Think about it. LDEO had these two small seismic spikes at the general time of the impacts, so they must have naturally thought they were the impacts. This is understandable, especially in the light of that horrible day.
However, the 9/11 Commission precision times came much later, at a different time period, and only after much analysis and effort. They are basically based upon: "We have determined that the impact time was 9:03:11 based on our analysis of FAA radar data and air traffic control software logic." [9/11 Commission Report, pg 460, Note 130]:
http://www.insightful.com/infact/911/corpu...rt_470_460.html
(Note 130 is the basis for WTC1 & WTC2 precision impact times to the second)
This is an entirely different set of data than LDEO, but it too is highly accurate and precise; e.g., consider the technology needed and used in the space program; and although different, these technologies are similar in many ways; and one critical way they are similar is that they both must be precise in the area of timing; and so they are.
So, this is probably how these two extremely precise but different data sets came about for the same event (plane impact) and appear before us now. However, it does not matter how they came into being. What is important is that both sets are to the precise second.
Also critical is: Are the two data sets correct?
As pointed out above, the LDEO set should be correct. The 9/11 Commission's set should be trustworthy as well. This is because both entities' came up with their data under similar conditions and constraints: required, high precision parameters; working in the face of high visibility in the wake of a national tragedy; and finally, there is the general understanding of what these entities were attempting to do (i.e., to get it right). There is no reason to disbelieve either data set.
Addressing Question (2): What is the significance, if any, of the different impact times?
Yes, there is significance, and it goes to another level. This is the heart of the matter.
The Commission Report must have the correct impact times because this is what they were specifically looking at: flight data that ultimately ended at precise terminations (to the second) when the towers were struck. There is no question here: precisely, AA Flight 77 crashed at 8:46:40 and UA Flight 175 at 9:03:11 [EDT]. So, if the planes impacted the towers at those times, what were the earlier times as noted by LDEO due to notable seismic spikes?
On an aside, what first caught my eye last week about this was the implausibility of "impact times" by LDEO. I thought, "How can such a huge jet airliner impact WTC1 above the 90th floor and we end up with energy transference traveling all the way down to the earth (even through the massive multi-level sub-basement structure) sufficiently so as to be picked up by LDEO as a seismic spike?" This still makes no sense. Energy from the impact should have been mostly absorbed by the building's immense structure and mass.
Then I recalled my reading a while back about accounts of people who experienced explosions down in the basements before the planes struck. The following is an excerpt about one of them, an eyewitness at WTC1 by the name of William Rodriguez:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Spingola/deanna17.htm
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Arriving at 8:30 on the morning of 9-11 he went to the maintenance office located on the first sublevel, one of six sub-basements beneath ground level. There were a total of fourteen people in the office at that same time. As he was discussing the day's tasks with others, there was a very loud massive explosion which seemed to emanate from between sub-basement B2 and B3. There were an additional twenty-two people on B2 sub-basement who also felt and heard that first explosion.
At first he thought it was a generator that had exploded. But the cement walls in the office cracked from the explosion. "When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and everything started shaking." said Rodriguez, who was crowded together with fourteen other people in the office including Anthony Saltamachia, his supervisor for the American Building Maintenance Company.
Just seconds later there was another explosion way above which made the building oscillate momentarily. This, he was later told, was a plane hitting the tower at about the 90th floor. Upon hearing about the plane, he immediately thought of the people up in the restaurant. Then there were other explosions just above B1 and individuals started heading for the loading dock to escape the explosion's resulting rampant fire. When asked later about those first explosions he said: "I would know if an explosion was from the bottom or the top of the building." He heard explosions both before and after the plane hit the tower.
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This provides the plausible answer as to what LDEO picked up as a seismic spike moments before the plane struck the tower.
Again, the question: What caused the earlier seismic spike picked up by LDEO?
There are only two logical choices: either (A) a true seismic event (a very small earthquake tremor; and, yes, this choice would mean discounting the eyewitnesses who said explosions happened before the plane struck; i.e., they are not telling the truth), or (
very large explosion(s).It could not possibly have been a very small earthquake. Why? Because this same, exact scenario happened again a few minutes later at WTC2, both spikes occurring within a brief 15-minute period under the most unusual circumstances. The odds of this happening by chance go beyond the pale of the realms of possibility (you don't need to be a statistician to see this). This only happens when man is involved.
The earlier seismic spikes had to have been (
: very large explosion(s), which Middle Eastern terrorists could not have been responsible for. That is no question; they do not have the wherewithal for this kind of scale.This is what really happened:
Explosion(s) Meant to Coincide... ... ... ... ...
["Impact Times"]
LDEO
8:46:26 and 9:02:54
Respective Differences
14 seconds
17 seconds
with.... ... ... ... ... Planes Impacting Towers
[Actual Impact Times]
9/11 Commission
8:46:40 and 9:03:11
(The explosions were probably done to prepare the buildings for final controlled demolition later by implosion.)
To sum up:
This is no conspiracy theory. Why?
This is not theory. These are facts, simple and few.
But it is definitely a conspiracy.
And this isn't rocket science.
(This is the smoking gun, it has legs, and this dog can hunt.)
What must be done? Simply one thing:
The 9/11 Commission and the Bush Administration must answer the question:
WHAT CAUSED THOSE SEISMIC SPIKES?
They must answer, and they must answer now; if they do not, it is the same thing as an admission of guilt.
God help us all.
Craig T. Furlong
July 31, 2006
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