Nothing like controversey on a Monday morning, huh?
So grab your pot of caffeine and let's rock 'n roll

I'd have to say that they speak for war. Even if not directly, by chosing to support the Repub agenda and politicians, they are basically saying, "war's alright if it helps further our causes". Terrible and sad, but the truth as far as I can tell.

Generally, its the non-mainstream religions who oppose the war and try to promote peace, and its these religions that are considered full of crazies.

Religion, like the police, is just a tool to keep the status quo.

It doesn't matter what they say.

Scorp, if they keep the status qou, then people in yours and mine position in life should listen very closely to what they tell their people, no?

Most people here know I'm Catholic, so I'll only vote according to what I'm hearing & know personally. On Sunday, it's been encouraging, instead of praying for good "outcomes" for our soldiers like in Fallujah and such, lately, the past year the "prayers of intention" have been more and more for peace and for our leaders to make wise decisions towards peace. The "prayers of intention" also have been more and more for people suffering from wartorn countries. Of course, the prayers continue for our soldiers, but not in a "battle context" anymore. I've been dropping a little "google PNAC" paper in the basket every time it gets passed around every Sunday, so I hope at least my little parish and its priests are aware of PNAC by now.

As far as the US Catholic Conference of Bishops is concerned, they've made their official statement against the war back in 2002 on their website somewhere, and that's about it! :

http://www.usccb.org/bishops/iraq.shtml

I don't know why I do not hear about Catholic Bishops speaking more frequently & loudly against the Iraq War, I'm not sure if the IRS threatens their tax-free status when they do that or not. It reminds me of how silent the official Catholic Church was in Nazi Germany, while the parish priests risked their lives hiding Jewish families. If the official US Catholic Conference of Bishops could take a more vocal stand , then maybe parishes would follow with a more active peace movement... but like I said, I do not know what is holding them back.

Rev. Jesse Jackson is the ONLY cleric of any religion I have heard speaking against this war in a public forum. Does anyone know of any other clerics of any religion speaking out besides Rev Jackson?

So many of the (non catholic) but mainstream churches have become more & more evangelical in their bent lately...I have to say, they are all panting pro-bushites...that were all sporting "pray for our troops & support our troops" sign on thier lawns. I dont see as many now; but they still refuse to voice against what they see as "their" party. Values this!

WWJB? (who would jesus bomb?)

I love that phrase Tap! I saw it on a bumper sticker at my work last May , back when Downing Street Memos first came out . Then I posted it at Afterdowningstreet.org. And then, someone picked up on it in the Bible Belt, and used it as a sign at one of the very first Downing Street Memo rallies last year. They reported back that the response was a lot of very positive feedback for the WWJB? sign! Also, Crawford Peace House uses that phrase a lot at their rallies and functions .

I don't do church, so I don't know first hand.
I haven't seen or heard much from real churches.

Those that make most of the noise should most likely lose their tax exempt status for being too political.
I mean down right actively political, as if that is their purpose, to be political.



If yer a church, then be a church.
But if you go political, yer politics, and no longer a church!

My church never really discusses politics.

Don't get me started on the topic of "Religion". Although I am not an athiest, I believe that most religion is nothing less than fraud perpetuated on a massive scale. Politics and Religion can and frequently do go hand and hand. Politicians exploit religion for their own purposes and religion uses politics for its own purposes. Also, since the Republican Party is seen to be God's own Party and the War against Terrorism is seen by most Christians as a war against the godless infidels of Satan, many religious people FAVOR the war and believe that God is on their side and also favors the war. So they are pro-War. Religion should stay out of politics but they don't. One more reason not to wave an American Flag.

Religion, in the current age of science, should be delegated to the realm of myth and superstition, where it belongs.

Like my favourite Tool song, "Deaf and dumb and blind and born to follow / what you need is someone strong to guide you." Religion is bad for you.

So if a particular denomination is aware of PNAC and how fascist it is and how much innocent death it is causing , they should lose their tax exempt status if they make some noise about it?

I always think it rather smart of none-religous people to tell relious people how and what to believe and what to support or not to support, but get really pissed when ever you tell them what you actually believe and support.

Reminds me of the guy who keeps touching the hot stove, hoping it will be cold each time, yet chaning nothing.

It's certainly possible to speak up for peace, for civil rights, and for tolerance without telling folks who to vote for. It's my opinion that one mission of ANY church should be to address injustice, to help those in need.

A lot of the Southern Baptist churches do preach detailed politics right from the pulpit. I heard a horrible segment on NPR about a minister preaching about Samuel Alito. These are the churches that should be investigated by the IRS.

Instead, it's the liberal, non-mainstream churches that get investigated.

I'm a Unitarian Universalist - and our consistent message is one of social justice and peace. We aren't considered a "mainstream" church, even though John and Abigail Adams were UU's. Other famous UU's include Ralph Waldo Emerson, Susan B. Anthony, and ee cummings.

We are a small, rural congregation (about 100 members) but right now 2 of us are in St. Bernard's Parish volunteering for a few weeks. UU's rock.

I agree Maxanne, I thought that was the whole idea of religion, so they should not lose tax-exempt status, for peace activism, right? My understanding is that voter activism by churches is definitely in violation of their tax-exempt IRS status. It just curls my hair that PNAC has a "tax-exempt status" for war-mongering!

Non-profit status is reserved for religious groups, and has been expanded to non-religious groups who do "Public Service Good Works" Like food banks, the Red Cross, BSA/GSA, Purple Heart.....I cant really see how PNAC does any charitable works! I cannot for the life of me see how they get tax-exempt status.

If I had the $$ I would challenge that right in court.

Maybe I'm wrong about the defining terms here, so feel free to explain how this can be if I'm wrong, anybody!!!!!!

Yes!
The rules should apply evenly, both ways.

Churches are NOT places for politics.
Though I have no problem with a church entering into the political arena.
But when they do, they should lose their tax exampt status!

They can still be a church, and pay taxes for being political!



To be a tax exampt church means that you are NON secular.
Politics is about as secular is is humanly possible.

I can easly see a non-secular church,
but secular politics is scary as all hell!

I don't know what the mainstream churches are saying. I don't embrace institutionalized religions very well.


Yank,
I am a reformed Catholic.
And now that I've been able to pull my head out of the pile of dogma-shit the Catholic church puts out there, I can now see that the belly of the church is driven by money and greed. It has always been that way and continues to be that way. The Catholic church is not the pulse of Christianity, and can not claim to be either. As their way is in discord with the message of Christ.

As you Nazi example eludes to.

I agree with Sky here. Churches dont need to talk politics. That doesnt mean the members cant have a discussion about politics IN church, just I think it would be wrong for any politcal messages to come FROM the pulpit. At that point, it becomes a vessal of politcs and no longer a vessal of what ever divine being/ state/ purpose they may worship.


Here is a question though I have wrestled with Sky. What if they worship the God of politics?

and what if they worship the god of Ganja?

You didnt answer my question.

The god of politics belongs in the halls of Congress and out of the House of God.

1st Commandment: Thou shall have no other God before Me.

I did answer the question.
You just didn't know it.


Read it again.

Max, very good point.





How the hell does that answer my question Sky? Spell it out for me.

Sorry, I'm an ass hole and won't do it!
You're capable of doing for yourself.



Now, lets try to get back to the thread,
as Panda has tried to do.

You dont even know what Ganja means. And this is on topic Sky. I stated something, you made a comment and then claimed it was an answer to my question, which was totally on topic. I did not understand your answer and now you refuse to explain it. Great having an adult converstaion with you Sky. You make my stay here enjoyable.

Wait, who does that remind me of.....Hmmm......

I don't know what Ganja means, or who da Ganja mon is?

FYI. I don't do it anymore,
but when I did, I spilled more than you ever smoked!


MM, you really should not be so assuming.
It doesn't do you any good!








By the way MM.
If you don't like it, don't do it!
If I cause you so much angst, ignore me!

Although I hope you don't ignore me,
because I do so enjoy your wit and humor.

You where talking about drugs? And here I thought you ment a city in a country destoryed by Religion.

Still religion needs to stay out of politcs and vice versa. Politics need to stay out of religion.

In a just world, they should not.

I promise you if churches united against the war...Bush and Co would have the IRS on them like flies on food.......

I do! Rev Davidson Loehr from Austin, TX

Like Constantine, George Bush has borrowed the language of Christianity to support and justify his military ambition. And just like that of Constantine, the Christianity of this new Rome offers another carefully edited version of the Bible. Once again, the religion that speaks of forgiving enemies and turning the other cheek is pressed into military service.

http://www.austinuu.org/sermons/2005/2005-...omReligion.html

He also called for the impeachment process to begin publicly on Nov 2, 2005 at the Capitol of Texas

http://rubenloera.smugmug.com/gallery/935700/1

This is a photo gallery of a beautiful day at the Capital of Texas, Austin, Nov 2nd. I am there with my kids and friends, the guy in fatigues and a hat with a stroller and a klingy 2 year old girl, my daughter Raven. It's ironic I spoke of the plight of the soldiers, the veterans, and the current strain of the family and my kid wouldn't let me go, let alone rip my speech seconds before getting called up to speak, so I spoke from the heart.

http://rubenloera.smugmug.com/gallery/935700/8/42854905 here's my kid hanging onto me to the point I had to take a knee, I mean I was gone for 18 months of her 24 months and she didn't want to let go. I love my family and won't put them second again like that.

My friends from Ft. Hood were leaving that week, (4th ID, 3rd time to Iraq) and I saw for the first time the strain put on those left behind. I was always the deployed one, from 1st Cav, 11th ACR, 3rd Brigade Ft. Lewis and finally with CENTCOM, always at the forefront, first to go.

It's just too cool the impeachment word is spreading, as they used corruption to get the power, now it's evidence and connection to people like Delay and Abramof is going to take it away. It's all about ethics, the whole month of December saw an ethics campaign directed from Bush himself to all members of gov't, but particularly at the higher levels around himself with seminars and classes on it in an attempt to show others that they are 'reformed' and it won't happen again. You can't remove one and not the other, they are a package deal, they have sworn to protect each other, a strong bond and won't be replaced easily. Now we face the same issue.

Recall the guy, and all the king's men for heaven's sake. We see no remorse but adamant refusal to obey the law. It worked in Cali, why not in DC? It's just a matter of time now, now it's damage control of what can be salvaged, the cat and kittens are out of the bag, the beans are spilled, and the dam has broken. Just don't call FEMA LOL

Dr. Joseph Lowery: The Soul of America
A Film by Scott Galindez
LiNk
Dr. Joseph Lowery co-founded the Southern Christian Leadership Conference with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Dr. Lowery is concerned about the "Soul of America." He told those gathered at Camp Casey that they were the "Salt of the Earth" and they would be the ones to redeem America.

Coretta Scott King's Funeral

VIDEO HERE

That's fair and I totally agree with that , but, and this is a BIG BUT... what if they are vocally against PNAC, and fascism and the evils of Bush NEOCON NAZIISM , but they DON'T tell you who to vote for...churches spoke out against SLAVERY and they spoke for CIVIL RIGHTS... I always thought the IRS only drew the line when a church is CAMPAIGNING for a candidate?
( I'll have to google this if noone knows the IRS bureaucratic answer to this, so please, somebody, spare me from googling!)



Is it me, or does Laura look like Katherine Harris in that pix... yikes!