I posted this on another thread, and decided to ask what you thought. (AFW will probably have a good answer) Please state why you feel this way.


We refuse to fly a flag at my house. Mike has convinced me its too "seig heil" mentality. In fact he has a problem with the pledge too. Our allegiance isnt to any flag, its to this country! And brainwashing people to follow an inanimate object is just too mind-control for us. Of course, he grew up when hippies were arrested for wearing the flag etc.. How many sheep follow a flag waver wherever he goes? See all the 2000's! Its a piece of cloth, an emblem, and the reality is only in our minds & hearts. Kinda like idol worship.

The only one Ive personally put up here is an american flag, with a big Native American face plastered over it...to remind people, that it was never really ours until we committed genocide to get it. Kinda to humble them. People asked all the time, and I would, gently explain why I chose it.

Don't mean to offend anyone who likes it, I understand why you like it; we just think its become a bad joke of the original intent.

I don't fly my house flag every day.

But I also have no problem expressing patriotism.
I am proud to be an Anerican.
This pride is expressed, among other things, through my expressions of dissatisfaction with my government!

If I had no pride, and if I didn't care, then I likely wouldn't be here, and most likely wouldn't even care to vote!


But please understand this.
my American Pride is NOT about politics!
Politics is about preserving the reasons for my American Pride!


Beyond that if I have to explain the basis for my pride for America,
then the point is really quite lost and pointless.

Either you get it, or ya don't!



BTW, I also have pride for Cascadia, the general area in which I live.
Hell, I even have some pride left for my old High School!

Go Papermakers!

For the record, we have pride in our country, too....and are prous to be considered patriots.

Its the forced symbolism, worship the flag thing we dont do. Ya get it or ya dont on that too.


Amendment: Mike would have no problem flying one upside dowm at this point: its a disress signal, and if ever this nation's people were in distress its now!

(:wish there was a lil peace symbol emoticaon:)

I chose won't fly one. I guess my sentiments are close to Tap's...also, here in MS, you are hard pressed to find a car that doesn't have at least one of those stupid ass support our troops flag things, most often the car has multiple, as if somehow the more you buy (I'm certain these flags are made in china) and plaster on your car, the more patriotic you are. I don't particularly like patriotism. Perhaps its from my own experiences, but it seems patriotism is just a nicer word for nationalism. That kinda stuff makes me puke. But I am also a weirdo (as you all know). I can remember from some of my earliest experiences wondering how it was that I happened to be born an American, white and female. Those things are so arbitrary that it seems weird to me to be overly "patriotic". Not to say that I don't enjoy it here, but my allegence is to myself, my son and my fellow earth inhabitors. I'm not so much for a 'one world government' (I despise the idea, actually) but I think that often patriotism makes us too separate.

Hell, I could go on and on and probably explain myself no better, so I wish shoosh for now. My boy has the flu so I am going on very little sleep and am to the point of delirious exhaustion.

Canadians don't typically practice an "in your face" form of Patriotism, and the American "put the flag everywhere" style typically rubs us the wrong way.

I love my country, I'd die for Canada, but I don't need a flag on my front lawn to show / prove it.

The American flaqg is a symbol.

You canadians have your symbols as well.
I wouldn't die for a symbol.
But if I had to, I might for what it represents!

It is clear I was brainwashed as a child.

FlagWavers are like "national bigots", telling the world: my country is the greatest in the world, and no other country is as good as mine. That kind of thinking starts many wars, which helps to explain why America is one of the most war-prone countries on the face of the earth.

A big Flag = A Small, ignorant mind.

Besides America, another country that was very fond of flag-waving was Nazi Germany. Nuff said.

I often display symbols of the flag, bunting, car window sticker, even a lapel pin on occassion. It's always been true that if your political philosopy is left of center that conservatives accuse you of being unpatriotic. I like to symbolically tell 'em "fuck you, this is my flag and my country and I'm probably more of a patriot than you'll ever be." Sometimes I like to tell 'em in a more direct manner.

I won't let anyone take away my country or my flag . I don't own a literal one, but you get the gist. I was a former Cub Scout Leader, so am very big on the whole God & country & family thing , etc, but NOT NeoCONISM. Bushie will never take away AMERICA'S FLAG from me!

The Peace Group at my hometown the other day marched with a BIG American Flag and "3rd Anniversary Cakes" and a bullhorn to the recruiter's office. The recruiter's shut down their office and locked the doors for about an hour and a half (that might've saved a life ) when the Peace Group was marching into the shopping plaza area. The recruiter's were afraid to talk on TV camera to people with AN AMERICAN FLAG!

Let me clarify my position. I think its alright to be proud of one's country. Its also alright to hang a flag to display that pride. Its even okay to wave a flag, as long as one does not forget that we all share the same world, and just because we are born in the US of A does not make it the best country in the world. We should think less as a nation and more as a planet.

The kind of "flag wavers" I despise are the type of people who despise and condemn France (to this very day, I kid you not!) just because France refused to support Bush in his fanatical quest to "get" Saddam Hussein. The whole "freedom fries" thing was about as sickening as it gets for me. These people are the biggest flag wavers of all, and I think they represent the America I know less than just about anyone I can think of.

AFW,


That is in large part exactly why I fly my flag, including the one I have on my forklift!


Because that which you discribe does NOT represent the true core values of what the flag represents.
I fly my flag, and I am who I am, as demonstration of what I feel these true values really are!


It's one of the ways I have of walking my talk and offering folks a choice!
You can choose what they claim should be what America is about,
or you can choose to be a part of what I consider that vision should be,
or, you can make your own, as it suits you.

But, you do NOT have to assume that because "they" said so,
that what they say is your only moral choice to make!


I'll stand with my flag and proudly say to them,

"BULL SHIT!"

To these people, the Flag is a symbol of national pride. If they saw your flag, they would automatically assume that you were on their side. Kind of like a Skinhead who sees other bald people and feels good that he has comrades in the world.

The Flag is a symbol, but what it symbolizes depends upon the person waving it. You and one of the goons on www.FuckFrance.com can both wave a flag that looks the same in all aspects. But what that flag symbolizes for him is about 180 degrees away from what it symbolizes to you. That is why I am wary of flags. I don't want anyone to assume where my loyalties lie just by looking at an arbitrary symbol.

Also, Bush wears an American Flag on his Lapel every day, and wraps himself and his administration in the flag. He also uses the flag to justify evil and vile things like torture. So you'll pardon me if I want nothing to do with a US Flag except to burn it in protest.

I knew this was incindiary (SP?) ok, flammable, when I posted it. I always find it somewhat amusing how emotional people get over the flag. Who and why convinced us we need a symbol to metophorically "venerate & worship" and to prove to anyone else we are more american they they? Again, its something that is used now for division. Its about us as a country; really, and how we can aspire to better ourselves as human beings; responsibility to eachother, yes world citizens, as afw said....that is pride in america....

Its like saying someone is better christian cuz they wear a bigger cross. Or can't be a christian unless they wear one.

Feel free to carry on, in any heated emotional way you'd like, on either side of the debate....(and i still won't get it)

I'f they assume I'm like "them",
that's their mistake to make isn't it?


I will continue to demonstrate the best I can what I think the flag really stands for.

Next 4th of July when I'm sitting with my son on a blanket on the lawn down at the fort for the Fireworks show,
I won't have any doubt about the symbolism of my patriotism.

And when they play the national anthem, I'll feel the pride inside move me,
and I will not be ashamed, or attempt to hide it!

I think nationalism has it purposes, like say the Olympics or the World Cup, or any other multitude of peaceful events or competitions. I do not find it a pleasent thing when we are killing people and thus making it a better then you at murder kinda pep rally, which is just sick. We should honor our enemies by not taughting them or claiming supremecy.


Off topic: I find it rather amussing that someone who was claiming peace for the forums is no inciting fights on the forums.





Just my sick twisted humor I guess.

I guess I should have known better than to remove the block....sigh...I see I'm still receiving insults.

For the record, being heated about a subject, or emotional about it is NOT the same as fighting. Fighting is personal attacks...Your forte' not mine. back to CLICK!

Since when has truth become an insult?

Also, on any forums a flame is considered a personal attack.

Here is the difference in example...

"You dumb fuck, how can you possible not understand you are a hypocrite" is a flame...because it attacks persons intelligence.

"Old timer, you are old and confused" is nicer but is still a flame...because it attacks the persons age.

"Fellow poster, maybe I am misunderstanding your words, but I think you missed one of my points and I think we should review the issue once more" not a flame and in fact offers a viable solution to the problem.

So you see, anything that uses a personal aspect of someone as a method of attacking their position is considered a flame. Is this what you wished to insite by your words of knowing something would cause such and it is amussing you? Nice to know our conflict in this issue brings you entertainment.

My comment before is in no way a flame. It mentions something you have done and are currently doing. It makes no mention of you being right or wrong in the cituation. Also, an insult implies untruthfulness. I do not lie, even my wife says I am too honest, sometimes brutally so.

What now amusses me is that you make a comment, but refuse to support your own position. I mean no ill will here nor cold temper, I only question and debate, because if you cant even fight about your views, what good is having them? If you cant even come to terms that people will disagree with you, then how will you ever learn?

Do you really wish to flee from meerly words on a screen? Or do you wish to defend your position on any issue?


*sigh*

What does any of this have to do with the topic of this thread?
You seem to understand the various terminology.
Dont forget Thread Hijack!

Hell, I had nooooooo idea that "a flame" was even jargon here....I only meant it was a sensitive subject, probably gonna elicit plenty of response. There's a lot of words you long-time poac-ers use that I don't get...(I am blonde, female, polish) LOL. (why is a plant a "freeper? is that what it means?) Glad i didnt mention the legality of flag burning!!!

You should look again as to who hijacked the thread. Both of my posts had on topic content.

Does yours?

Why can she not support her position, she started the thread after all.

My thread; my response, and as such, defense of my original position...Its on topic!



added after: I had nooooooo idea that "a flame" was even jargon here (old at chat, new at blogging)

his off-topic attempt to bait me into a fight:



I don't mind side issues being naturally rambled into on a topic I start...but this is just plain an attempt to hurt me. Game, set and match.

There's a fine line between love & hate....maybe he waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaants me! My new pic is awfully cute!

So that's your justification?
Because others do it?

HEHE, that's true, Tap. told you that you were beautiful. I don't even almost consider myself cute, but I find that once people saw my pic, LOTS of new winks started coming my way...hehehe

Just kidding everyone. Trying to add levity so we don't get into a big ole stupid fight again.

Yeah, I have no ill towards Tapper at all and I would prefer this not fall into some fight. Would I would like however is for people to come clean when they are busted or atleast defend a claim or opinion they may have made when asked why.

That is all I desire.




I must admite the truth of this claim in good sprit, though it was not just an attempt, but clearly achieved. Also, I was not trying to crate a fight, just force you into a corner to defend yourself, so to speak.

Oh and Sky, no one has hijacked the thread, but you. If you read what ether of us typed you would understand, that she claimed she didnt have to say why she posted the thread and I pushed that issue, It had everything to do with the thread, because it was about the reasons for the thread. She claimed it was for her peronsal amussment (her words not mine) and I cried foul.

So, Sky, please explain how anyone here but you has hijacked the thread?

Actually, my husband & my stance on this is kinda "out there" from most people...I wanted to understand the "whys" people have for their feelings. Being amused by the vehemence behind many posts was just a side perk.

So is catching this contradiction all in one paragraph:

QUOTE
his off-topic attempt to bait me into a fight:

I must admite the truth of this claim in good sprit, though it was not just an attempt, but clearly achieved. Also, I was not trying to crate a fight,

so... yes you did it, yes it worked, then no, ya didnt do it?

them long legs have him befuddled......hahahahahaha

Do you know what a crate is?

If you think I misspelled create, that is understandable, my spelling and grammar are not on par with an english teacher's and I commonly make mistakes. But think about why would I be "creating" something that you started already? That makes no since.

What you have caught me doing, madam, is my poor attempt at using "upgraded" diction and failing horrible at it, so I thank you for pointing out my mistake.

I do not get your refference to the long legs though, of course, I rarely do get sexist jokes.

Again you have failed to support your position and only point out my personal flaws. I applaud your tatics.

You started it,
neener neener!




Sorry, it was there so I kicked it!


Shouldn't let your balls lay around like that!

You don't know freedom until you've burned the flag.

Yup, I've done it. As a sign of protest in a live art piece that questioned symbols of patronage.
Drawing a picture of actual reality vs. prescribed reality.

What no reach around?

I didn't need to see your picture...I want your mind...(too!) That aside, I fought under that flag, killed and bled for it. I have mixed feelings about flags, especially ours (USA). I don't fly it, and I don't care what anybody else does or doesn't do with it. It only means what it means to individuals, and I will probably never fly one again.

Pride of one's nation is fine.

Flag waving, because you are too shallow to know what your government has been up to in your name, is just an example of how gullible people are. They appear to occupy about 2/3 of the population.

There are REASONS why we have terrorists in our hair, but the government won't discuss this with you, let alone admit to it.



x

That would be about the same as swearing Coke is better than Pepsi.

In fact, the only real differance is which ad you like best!

I disapprove of the flag, the pledge of allegiance and of quick emblems and nationalistic songs generally. It is patriotic to read the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence. Simple formulas, flags, incantations, etc are no substitute for really knowing the principles and history of one's country.
So I don't fly a flag. I walk out on the pledge and I won't salute the flag. Flag worship has been a destructive force in our culture and in our country generally.

Good Point. A Flag is nothing but a symbol, and what it symbolizes is in the eye of the beholder. What a US Flag should mean and what it does mean in Bush's America are very different things. I sure as hell do not want some France-hating American bigot seeing a flag hanging in my front yard and feeling good about it. Fuck him and fuck HIS flag.

I'm not a part of Bush's America,
so my flag is a symbol of different things that does his flag.

It is my hope, and those of most of us here,
to restore our pride in country and it's symbols.
After all, isn't that why we're here?

Theres a great cartoon that jo canadian posted about this today...couldnt copy & paste it here

Tapper.


Right click the image, select "properties"
copy paste the address for the image,
come back to where you wanna put that image,
click the little icon of a picture of a tree,
paste the image address into the text box,
and that's it!


This usually works, but not always.
That lesson later when needed.
Imageshack.com, a free image ftp site.

I was a young sergeant, stationed at Schofield Barracks, in Hawaii after my second tour in Viet Nam, and received an Article 15 (non-judicial punishment, under article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice) for refusing to stand and salute a picture of the American flag onscreen in a post movie theater. Cost me a month's pay. I thought it was kind of funny, but I guess you had to be there.

I once had a 1st Sgt tell me I might as well rip the flag off the wall of his office because my sideburns were too long. I thought that was kind'a funny too.

Thanks to jo canadian for original post & skys map to get it here.