http://www.slate.com/id/2137731/nav/tap1/

...
Nancy Pelosi epitomizes this problem. A five-minute interview is usually sufficient to exhaust her knowledge on any subject. And she can flop around like a fish. When Rep. Jack Murtha, D-Pa., proposed a pullout, or "redeployment," of U.S. troops from Iraq in November, Pelosi's first reaction was to isolate him. "Mr. Murtha speaks for himself," she said. But after taking a drubbing from left-wing bloggers and her anti-war constituents, she announced that she supported Murtha after all.
...
Reid's flaws are mostly a mirror image of Pelosi's. After calling for more Supreme Court justices as brilliant as Antonin Scalia, he recommended that Bush nominate his undistinguished flunky Harriet Miers. Moreover, Reid's own pork-barreling and lobbyist-courting suggest that making him majority leader would merely replace the Republican hackocracy in Congress with a Democratic hackocracy. Reid has declined to repudiate contributions from Abramoff-linked Indian tribes, and his own family includes so many lobbyists that after some nasty press coverage, he had to ban them from his office.
...
Howard Dean is smarter than either Pelosi or Reid and clearly stands for something. Unfortunately, what he stands for in the minds of most people is incandescent rage and upscale socialism. Dean has an unfortunate knack for making himself the issue, even when, as lately, he's trying to maintain a low profile. His injudicious comment about the GOP being the party of white Christians was followed by his statement that "the idea that we're going to win this war is an idea that unfortunately is just plain wrong." Such gaffes lead to endless debate about how Howard Dean is screwing up, rather than about how Bush is screwing up. Building on the work of a DNC pollster, Dean a few months ago took to referring to his party's base as "merlot Democrats." With him and Pelosi in charge, this threatens to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

AFW?



For a change of pace,
how bout you start a thread that Bush's Republicans?



Dear Leader will forgive you!

Well done AFW.

Now yer high fiving the wingers!
Right on!

It is TOO easy to get you all riled up sky.

If I comment, I'm riled?
Gimme a break.

Just because someone has an idea, other than that the Democratic party is the answer to all of the world's problems, doesn't mean that their opinion is less valuable. And in AFW's case specifically, I don't think he's a winger at all. It disturbs me that any time someone voices a different opinion (um, isn't that the whole entire point of wanting to get the republicans out of house?) you immediately condemn their behavior as defeatist. While I can wholeheartedly agree with you at times, Sky, I have to say that its perfectly legitimate for AFW, me, a tree...whomever, do have a different opinion than you and to be "right". I believe in a lot of things. And for me my beliefs are right. But they are not right for everyone. If you are unwilling to look in the mirror, I wonder if that doesn't mean you will be afraid of what you see.

Unfortunately, the way things are set up in America, you basically have to pledge allegence to one of the two parties and that's the only way you are taken seriously. God-forbid you be one of those freak, tree-hugging green party members, or a libertarian or a fucking Alf for presidentian. I think that progressives, no matter what party affiliation they claim (or none at all) are what keep this peice of shit afloat. If it weren't for progressives of all parties, who do you think would run the aids clinics, or the no-kill animal shelters, or work to save the spotted owl. Yes, right now there is an urgency to have the republicans out of office. I feel it as well. But it doesn't mean that I am going to change my beliefs and value system to fit someone else's definition of what I should be. AFW, Scorp, MM--everyone, is entitled to voice his opinion. We don't have to all think the same. And I am glad we don't. It would be pretty fucking boring to sit around talking to a million Lefty clones all day.

Lefty,

(Major deletion. No need deliberately piss the woman off anymore than she already is, even if it is true)

Yes, everyone has the right to voice their opinion.

That includes me and my opinion.
Even if you don't like what I have to say!


You don't have to agree with me.
I didn't ask you to.

I consider AFW a passive winger who is quite possibly an active winger!
I've gone round and round with him much longer than I have with you.




So I'm gonna ask you to apply yor own stated rules evenly.
If AFW has the right to cut Democrats, (notice he rarely cuts Republicans, just Democrats)
I have the right to voice my opinion that he's a tool of the Neo-cons.
And I have still not seen much, if anything constructive from him.

I preach short term unity in teh effort to Dislodge the corrupt ruling party,
he preaches division and the all mighty wedge issue.

8 months people.
March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October.
That's it!
When October is over, will the Neo-cons be cemented into place?
Or will the neo-con foundation be crumbling?

Why dont we just do what everyone else does? Make a subgroup WITHIN the Democratic party and then just take it over.

Sky, I am progressive and anti-War. That is where my allegience lies, not with any party. And the Democratic Party, YOUR party, Sky, is currently supporting (and not opposing) the Iraq War and some very non-progressive things like the Patriot Act and Domestic Spying. DNC as well as DLC is doing this. Look at the voting records if you doubt me on this.

Do you think we are stupid Sky? How long can the Democratic party go on doing what it has been doing without people getting wise to it. The Democratic Party is making the choice to alienate its progressive base, and yet they expect us to re-elect them. They would shit a brick if their voters held them accountable for their behavior. I'm right up there leading the charge to hold them accountable for their behavior.

MM,

I believe that is already in the process,
and the more some complain about Dean and Feingold and the others,
the more sure of this I become.

But, that won't help us this November.
It is however, a good start for 08 and further on down the road!

A good foundation takes time to build.
And since it holds up everything else,
be sure it's the best you can do!

To be quite frank and bluntly honest,
yes, sometimes I think you're stupid!


But more important than you apparent intelligence,
is the attitude that you display that so quickly gathers converts,
as if to an evangelical tent being pitched in various parts of the county!

The easy argument that has little to do with the immediate reality!
The emotional argument that has every right to exist,
but detracts from the immediate fight at hand!


Look AFW, most of what you have said I do not disagree with!
On the contrary!

What I have been hammering over and over,
even to the point of pissing off people I respect,
and having received a fair share of disrespect for it,

IS ABOUT THE TIMING AND THE GREATER EVIL!

Yes the Democrats stink, but the Repugnicans are putrid!
I am afraid of the consequences if this party continues,
if once again they are given a hand full of imaginary political capitol!
I firmly believe that America is under attack!
From within, and the threat is greater than terrorism!
In fact, this threat CAUSES terrorism, because it helps their goals!


The polarization of American Liberals has to stop, and must stop RIGHT NOW!
We need to unify every aspect of Liberal Americans together,
a coalition of the willing if you will,
to kick these bastards we collectively call Bushco,
the working political arm of the Neocon new world order,
out of power!.
Every day, every week they run congress, they continue to build their power base
and block the normal American Democratic Process!
Yes, right now Congress is working to make legal wiretaps with NO judicial over sight!
And this is being lead, dominated by the ruling party of the house and senate,
the REPUBLICANS!

And this is just ONE example!

YES Democrats are part of this, but NOT ALL DEMOCRATS.
On the other side Yes, ALL REPUBLICANS have been part of that evil process.
(Karl Rove and the Talking Points are but one form of proof)
Only very reciently has this Political block begun to split away from Bushco!
But even that is mostly cosmetic! DO NOT BE FOOLED!



Are you stupid?
That's not my call to make.
I will say though that your areguments will not save us from anything,
even from ourselves!


First things First!
Priorities!
Keep yer eyes on the Prize!
Especially now that we are finally making progress!
Don't sabotoge anything the Republicans are giving us with their inneptitude!
That would be playing the part of a Tool for the wingers!!

Sky, I read everything you say and I know you have a good heart. I know you want the same end-result I want, even if we disagree on the means for getting there. I do not condemn you for your views, and I agree with some of what you said.

Let me just say this. If anyone is to blame for the division that you speak of, it is the Democratic Party themselves. They created the very division you speak of, and you act like you blame us for reacting to it. What did you expect us to do? Ignore it?

I like to vote on Principal. That means more to me than anything else. I think everyone should vote on principal. Voting on a party line makes no sense for anyone, Republican or Democrat. Vote for the person who has upheld the position you stand for. Do not vote for someone simply because he or she is the same party as you are. If you think voting on Principal is stupid, well, then I guess I am. So be it.

And let me add that I think our current political system is very flawed for placing such huge emphasis on political parties. In our system, political parties mean more than anything, which is really fucked up when you think about it. "Party politics" is an obsolete concept if there ever was one. If I had my way, there would be no parties. We do not need parties.

Damn AFW. Just damn.


I agree that politcal parties are useless and do worse then good. But what other choice do we have? We are born into this system and ether we can live by it or die by it, or as Scorp wants to destory it and make a new one.

Those really are our only choices. Sky just wants to live by the system he believes in. I understand his message complety, but like I told him I am not willing to sell my soul to the tiger, to foil the lion. I am just not. But, since I have nothing better then his idea, what do you have to offer AFW? What is your solution, cause right now we have alot of opinions on the table and I think its damn time we pick one and DO IT!

There you go again, and you thought you might be able to sneak it past me!
The Democrats are responsible for the Wedge issues prevelant in America today?

The rest of what you said...


We have 8 months to November!
Like it or not, does not matter.
This is what we have to work with, make the most of it!