Let's try this again.

I talked about a mindset in a different thread, and I would like to talk about it further here. It concerns the limits of democracy, and public conditioning.

For the past 60 years, the US gov't (both Dems and Repubs, and as of late there hasn't been a lot of difference between the two) has continually conditioned the public to believe that revolution is a bad, even evil thing.

They cite examples such as China, the USSR, Cuba, and even go so far as to cite democratically elected leftists such as Venezuela and Guatamala.

This campaign of conditioning has been going on for so long, and the lies echoed so much, that most Americans believe these "truths" without even questioning why. They just accept it as fact.

The US gov't has also continued to perpetrate the myth that "every vote counts" and "you can make a difference," both of which have been proven untrue in the past two "elections." If Bush's past 5 years have taught us anything, they should have taught us that voting actually doesn't matter, and even if you do vote, in the end it is courts (all appointed by the rich) or companies (Diebold) who determine the outcomes, not popular wishes.

I have been re-reading 1984 by Orwell, and he explains that in every civilization, groups of people take power for one purpose, TO KEEP POWER. They do not care about creating a better world for others, they simply want to be in power for power's sake. I feel that this concept has most clearly been displayed by the recent re-passing of the Patriot Act where nearly every politican voted for it (regardless of Party division). If the Dems truly were what they say they are, they would be more concerned with the rights of hte people, and not getting re-elected.

Power is like a drug, and once you get used to it, you don't want to give it up.

Furthermore, the entire system for electing officals is broken, at it's most fundamental level. Allow me to offer an example (please bear with me, as I'm going to be using Canadian election terms, as they are all that I know):

Party A, B, and C are all running in a riding of 10,000 people. Let's say the votes go like this:

Party A - 4,000
Party B - 3,000
Party C - 3,000

Who gets the seat? Party A does. However, Party A didn't garner the most votes. In fact, a full 60% of the people in the riding DIDN'T WANT Party A to even be in power. Yet, Party A will assume power, despite the wishes of the majority in this "democracy" (a word which means ruled by the people).

Do you see the fundamental problem here? People have been told that they matter, and yet, clearly, the majority doesn't matter.

What can the people in this riding do? One suggestion would be to scrap one of the parties and go with a 2 party system, like the one in the US. However, this still doesn't mean that the majority of people will be heard, and, furthermore, how can Choosing between A or B accurately reflect the will of the majority?

It simply cannot.

It is obvious to me that simply voting is not enough. You're vote, in the end, truly doesn't matter.

Mao said that "power comes from the barrel of a gun." Even the founding fathers of the USA didn't VOTE their country into existance. The forged it with blood, sweat and tears.

I contend that if people seriously want to have change in their society, they cannot find it through voting every 4 years.

I think you are right on about the fact that we have been conditioned to think revolution is bad. I think it goes back even farther than the 60 years you suppose, to the reconstruction years (apres civil war). I think at first this conditioning was because the survivors and witnesses of the war were so horrified by the in-fighting...the brother against brother aspect of it all. But once the time marched on, people didn't so much remember the horrors of it (or the need for the war in the first place) so they just adopted a mantra that "revolution is bad", "revolution is bad"...to the point to where you are nearly considered a traitor in this day and age if you dare even earnestly suggest such a thing.

Essentially here rears the head of the ugly nature of humanity. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Revolution for the hell of it was tried in the 60's; but as my husband joined thousands of kids marching across the bridge on DC....once they realized they COULD take the capitol, the majority balked. Only the few who wanted to revolutionize for real were willing to go on...and they weren't enough in number.

So herein lies the second problem with the nature of the beast...."What does one do with power once you have attained it?" Who do you place in charge, or which group that will not, in eventuality become self-serving. (see first quote) Once in power, will they become the beast they decried?

Even non-party simplistic majority rule has the downside of "He who can control the public tide of opinion (and we know how easily led astray many are) can bring himself to power." And we know who controls that now....

So unfortunately I fear we are at the moment stuck with the "lesser of the two evils" choice. For in this particular time, with the Oil-Cartel run propaganda machine (i.e. Focks Gnus) a true progressive, liberal, thinking person couldn't be elected city dog catcher. It will be almost impossible at this point to disingage the machinery in charge as we have it now, let alone change the process by which it came into being. They have been planning this for years, starting at city & school board levels; to imbed people who are led by fear, prejudice and knee-jerk Christian-Coalition thinking. And if they dont win, they cheat...and are then investigated by their own and found faultless. (heavy sigh)

Mankind has not evolved emotionally to the level we find ourselves in technology; let alone sheer masses. We almost can't be trusted past the tribal/small community level at which we are able to self-check the actions of others....so this is SUCH a valid question. How can we arrive at true fair leadership now? In this Orwellian age? With the sheep that are the masses? With the fact their is so muuuuuuuuuch power in this country, that it would probably corrupt almost anyone who is immersed in it?

The mind boggles. Thanks for the food for thought.

Great post Scorp. I agree with that assesment of Democracy, but you do know American has never ever been a Democracy, right? I know Canada has shown you that gem, but here in America we pratice a Federal Republic style of government and that is so far more fucked up then Democracy. In fact, which other nation has this stupid sovergn state goverments co-existing with a sovergn federal government?

Well now that I think about in the terms you presented, the whole idea of "seperate" people voting for almost polarized candidates is futile and will never bring those "seperate" people together. The only reason the Civil War stoped, was because of the bloodshed, not because one side or the other wonor peoples view points changed. Those view points are still previliant all around America today. many have known this, the reason they all predict we will not be conquered, but we will destory ourselves.

Ultimately I think no matter what, the final course of Democracy is its doom and it does related exactly to what Scorp was talking about, so many different view points and ideas, everyone wants the power to bring those ideas to life and usually the majority is not that group.

Scorp, your post made me think of this, which Snopes says is partly right, partly wrong. Oh well.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

Damn, that pretty much sums it up Ping, great article.

scorp has a given a great outline of the mindset; and ping a wonderful historical view...(i'm new, not invisible here), but it still begs the question I asked....how do we break this cycle? How can we make what comes next NOT self-fufilling prophesy? Given the millions of people involved in the process & the ultimately corrupting enormous amount of power any body governing such masses would have?

Welcome to the Forum Wiretap.

I've read your posts and consider your views very informed.
You are by no means invisable.



How do we avoid the cycle?
How do we avoid apathy?

By electing people like GeeDub, TWICE!
No one in my lifetime has been a better Progressive motivater!

There have been many very good and noble people during that lifetime,
but no one has so stoked the fire as LittleTree has!

The Bumbling incompetant fool may have been the best thing for Democracy at this time.
It's just too bad so many had to die in the process!

The Bumbling incompetant fool may have been the best thing for Democracy at this time.
It's just too bad so many had to die in the process!
[/quote]

Good point!

Oh yes, my husband is dying them to overturn Roe; what a way to light fires under economic conservatives asses. Watch the major quake as they rip themselves from the christian coalition while they pull their daughters from Yale to bear babies!!! Not to mention the screams about welfare babies!!! Give them enough rope & hopefully they will hang themselves. Haliburton profits, Orleans becomes Disneyland south and the displaced move to Texas! Follow the $$ down the oil pipe from Iraq(and soon Iran) right to Shrubs back door while we are held hostage to the highest fuel prices ever.

Point made, still no solution. If there is an after; what next? (other than stockpiling your house, setting up turrets & going WACO ) I mean there has to be a way!

Patience and persistance.


Bashing your head against the brick wall in a vain attempt to take it down,
will only give you a head ache!


But if you lean on it, and apply a consistant, steady pressure,
eventually it will fall!



A cement sidewalk is a pretty hard and sturdy item!
Yet, any side walk can be broken by a single dandy lion weed!



And what if the worst happens before we can "save the world?"
Indeed, what if?
So the worst happens, would any of our efforts have prevented it?
Or is it what had to happen,
because this is how we stupid humans have to learn our most important lessons?



(shrug) Beats me!
I guess I'm just gonna have to do my best, and see what comes down eh?

I ask because I've read so many of you bantering about whether or not voting party lines is a profitable endeavor, or the merits of voting for only a true candidate who is un-electable. About true democracy as a process. All these brilliant minds in here; and we still lack focus.

My closest answer is this. They learned early on (circa 1970's) that cointelpro works and division means defeat. (those of you who are young enough to need a history lesson read any book by Ward Churchill, it wasn't only the American Indian Movement they quelled; they infiltrated every student dissenting society)

We need to make a true coalition of Greens, Progressives, and Dems. We need to be calm, sure, true and, as they have taught us STAY ON MESSAGE! Until we can do this, we are defeated.

Amen Sister!
I'm hearing all you got to say!

Study the very early years of the Soviet Union, while it was being run by Lenin and the Soviets.

There you wil find the kernal of true and harmonous civilization.

Also, read what Lenin wrote. He outlined the path to communism, in ways that are clear and make sense.

It's too bad taht the US has trashed the reputation of Lenin to the extent that it has.

I don't think there's a way to change the rise and fall of civilizations, since there is no way to change human nature.

Make it smaller - take a rich family. Granddad remembers what it was like to be poor, he worked hard to make the money, so he's frugal. Son might remember what it was like to be poor, but is less frugal. Grandson has no idea what it's like to be poor and spends the money like water. The family is rich no longer.

A people that remembers what it was like to be oppressed but achieves freedom is like that rich family. By the 3rd generation freedom will be taken for granted, and it's all downhill from there.

My 2 cents.

Sure works for me.


Make it bigger, and apply the same sort of logic to politics!

Once you learn these facts of history, predicting what will happen to us is easy.

So what has everyone predicted?

Not pretty it is?


Here is the simple problem with the solution part. The only way to offer a solution to a problem is by having hte power to do it. None of us have the power to change anything alone, so out of many, we must make one. We must be one voice, one fist, one hammer, one sickle, one swift action. Anything else will break like waves upon a beachhead.

high 5 that MM

Nope, not pretty at all!
And that is exactly why I am as passionate about this as I am!
Even if I were completely wrong (which I am not)
No one can say I'm apathetic!

Sky, I agre we need to be one force, I am just unsure about the banner of the Democratic party is all.


I would rather be burned to death by my heart, then have none at all.

Zapata said "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."

I think that more US citizens need to live this mantra.

What Zapata said is fine,
I'm not suggesting anything perminant.
I simply want to unify to remove the Repugs!
This is the one critical issue that requires one voice, one action!


Sheesh, no wonder Lefty gets pissed i say it so often.

I was wondering,

If things tank out in Nov. and the big bad R's get another win, what will you do sky?

Would this finally shatter your faith?

What options would you now consider?

If things tank and the R's score a big victory,
I'm afraid my faith ,shattered or other wise, doesn't matter.

I am afraid if the R's score big,
the only thing that matters is self preservation.

I will continue to work for the Progressives.
Unfortunately for a while I don't think it'll matter.



But would I still support the Democratic party?
If I thought they had a chance of making headway against the Neocon dominated Republican machine, yes.
If I see another possible way to get the job done, I won't hesitate to go there.

I have said before, I support the Democratic party for only one reason.