I am disgusted. The Democratic party in Alabama has cast aside its usual concern for separation of church and state in favor of supporting a bible literacy course. This would be a high school elective class.

1. The slippery slope. No bible class belongs in a public school. That's what church is for.

2. This is another Alabama "feel good" measure that doesn't make anything here better actually.

email I just received from some lackey in the Baxley campaign



Oh please. How could you reach high school age in this country and be completely ignorant of the bible? Would you try that line on someone more likely to believe it?

At least they're no banning abortion here yet.

I have no choice if I am against this bible literacy course thing, because all 4 gubernatorial candidates have said they support it! (2 repugs, Roy Moore and Bob Riley; 2 Dems - Don Siegelman (a felon!!!!) and Lucy Baxley)

Just wait, I'm sure you guys are next on the women's rights chopping block

I don't know about "next". Things here move so slow. But I'm sure we're on the list.

I just called the state Democrat party office. They can't find anyone to run against Terry Everett.

Got Links?

Ignorance and misdirection is not limited to the Republican party, and the Democratic Party of today is not a "progressive" party by any definition of the word. Don't act so surprised.

No one is arguing that point with you either!
(well, not me anyway)
No one has ever claimed the Democrats are all preogressive saints!
(certainly not me!)

MY point is about priorities!

The Republican party IS the greater evil!
Individual ass hole Democrats will be dealt with,
AFTER the Rethugnican machine has been taken apart!

If we fail to do this,
none of the rest matters a damn!

To do this we need ALL Democrats,
even the ass holes, if that's what we got!
To accomplish a change of direction in this country
we need all Democrats on the same team,
and even then, it's STILL not guaranteed!

I DO HOPE I'm sounding desperate enough!
Because there really is no other issue more important right now!
This is the root of the issue, the root of the evil!



AFW, Why is this concept so difficult for some of you?
Or do you not see the situation as being all that desperate?
Is the November election not really all that important?

What if I worshiped a god other than Christ? Wheres my class?

Sorry sir, Christianity is the only real religion round these parts. Everyone else is just delusional and confused. Duh!

I think Rex's comment is the point.
If the law becomes law,
it can and will be questioned in the courts.

How could they possibly defend such a position?


Bad laws don't usually last very long.
Why do you suppose Roe v Wade has managed to stand up against such an unending attack for so long?

Sorry, I live here and it's been in the papers for days, so I sort of forgot you'd need informing...

http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/ind...1420.xml&coll=1

http://www.socialstudies.org/2005/12/02

It's true!

For many of us in the NorthWest, a place like Alabama is another country,
complete with bizarre customs and unspoken social laws!

It often seems like a foreign country to me too man!

I dont see what the problem is here. It is just an elective course on the Bible. What is wrong with that?

It has no place in the public school system, and it only allows for the study of ONE religion.

If it were a general "world religion" course I don't think it would be as problematic.

What if I'm Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Muslim, Jewish? Where are my courses?

See the probleM?

Please see my first post, MM.

It also bugs me that ALL the candidates running for governor are in agreement on this, so I've got no choice...

Alaska has a similar ELLECTIVE course. Titled, How the Bible has influenced Western Culture.

Sad, sad days are ahead of us.
American Deomcracy, eating itself up.
From the inside out.
Hollowed out to be filled
BY FASCISM.

Yeah, Max, that's the other thing that bothers me about this. It looks like part of the theocracy movement to me.

So, what if we apply this logic to Noris mythology classes? Or lets say Egyption Mythology? Or any other classical religous studies course. Or how about any HUM classeas about certain cultures? I guess since the class doesnt teach ALL cultures or ALL religions, they must be bad and trying to force you to be that way, OMG run for the hills!

Give me a break guys, it is an Elective course, which means you dont have to take it. Its not forced. Hell Utah has had an elective for semenary and bible study elective course since they have had public schools.

When you go so far as to wash away what they believe, just because you dont believe it, then what makes you different then them? From what I am hearing from Democrats lately, I am not sure what is worse, the Republican brand of Fascist Governemt or the Democrats form of government deviod of anything in detail, just some mediocre society that is so fucking PC and dry, that I cant even call myself white. Oh no, we cant talk about Christmas, because it may offend the Jews, we cant talk about the color Negro in spanish class, cause it reminds us to much of nigger and blah blah blah. I guess its all ok as long as its about Republicans, Southerners, and dumb ass rednecks huh?

What where you guys saying about Freedom again, I didnt quite hear it.

When you study these ideas, you do so from out side of them.
These are long dead religions, and to study them it's in the context of a history lesson.


When you study the bible in a Modern American Public school, you do so from within the current
religous structure of Christianity, which by it's nature is NOT a history lesson. It's dogma!
It's Sunday School class in the grade schools, and this violates the seperation of church and state.
It's also offensive to me because I do not want anyone pushing any dogma of any kind in public schools!

The teaching of religious dogma of anykind has no place in Public schools.
Teaching various ancient mythologies is not about dogma, and is in fact, a history lesson.
If there were no Christian Dogma, and if we were not subject to it's influences in almost every aspect of American life,
then I might not have issue with it!
But, even if you attempted to teach bible class ONLY in the history context,
there is no way that history can be seperated from the dogmatic influences.
If society does not generally believe in god, no problem!

I'll let you wrestle with this idea...

Why do they(sic) call it Bible studies, Bible literacy, or Biblical influences?
Why don't they call it Religious studies, Religious literacies, or Religious influences?

The former question is about Christian religions while the latter is inclusive of ALL religions.

Why does the Bible take precedence over the Koran or Talmud, etc.?

Why are these Public school religious studies, religious literacies, and religious influences all based from a Christian perspective?

If we are a nation OF THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE, and BY THE PEOPLE, then where is the representation for the minority. The Christian Conservative Righteous Righties out there already have a monopoly on organized religion in the public square of THE PEOPLE'S GOVERNMENT.

Hello?!?!?!?!?!?

That's one step too far and way too close to a totalitarian fascist theocracy.

And those same CCRR's complain that they are the victims of oppression. They attempt to envelope all in the name of God, their God, while forgetting that there are others out there that worship that very same God, but in different ways, customs, manners, etc. BUT NOOOOOOO. that's not good enough. That's not Biblical. That's not Christian.

And so the one's that must fight the enslavement of the Righteous Righties are those that must create laws for their own protections. All the while, those self proclaimed Compassionate Christians conveniently lost their ability to be compassionate in the face of diversity when that diversity challenges their inner sense of compassion. HYPOCRITES. ALL.

And the HYPOCRITES, ALL, cry foul because the minorities have fought back through what is left of our Democracy, and created laws to protect themselves from the wolves; The CCRR. But it is they, the CCRR, that has brought this upon them selves. And it is us, America, that must suffer their wrath.

It is only beginning.
Their dominance of the political arena.

Democracy is no longer for the people, of the people, by the people.
It belongs solely to the CCRR.

If you do not believe their walk and talk, then you do not belong.
Only soon to be labeled a deviant and polluter to the American Race.

Zieg Heil
Zieg Heil

And God bless America.


American Power

Um...you need to learn more about world culture, many of those faiths are still strong and in fact the Egyptian faith has a strong following here in America. They get highly offended that we call their faiths "myths".






Its not a course about religion, its a course about the Christian cannon. There are already plenty of courses at many levels of education in America today that cover all aspects of relious academics. At my community college right now, I can enroll in classes from Religous Thought to Tibetian Philosophy in the Humanity course range. Instead of nit picking some states elective curiculum, why not challege the shit they are cutting totally from the budget? Like American History, Physical Education, Health, Civics, Economics? Rather intresting choices to cut, to say the least.

In all honestly, hearing you guys talk about this is like hearing Repubs talk about how people are saying Happy Holidays, instead of Merry Christmas. The whole system is jacked. Every level of the American Public Education system is beyond reason as to its failure. To bring focus to this in the pool of propaganda is akin to pointing out a pieace of crap in a pile of bullshit.

Yes, and there are still those who prefer to believe the earth is flat!
It's a very tiny minority. Small enough to give it no credibility.

My point is still valid.

Nope, you are wrong Sky.

There are more people who worship the Sun God Ra in America, then the Greek Orthydox faith. Would you say the Greek population in America is worthless Sky and their feelings dont matter?

How many Americans worship the sun god Ra?

And, aren't you making my point for me?
If they can teach the Christian God,
why not the Egyptain God Ra?

Perhaps Both should be excluded from Public schools?

Are you stalking me, Sky?


"Perhaps Both should be excluded from Public schools?"


They teach them all now, even Christianity and Ra. That is my point. Why are you guys bringing this one perticular case into focus, what is the reason, just to bash on Christians?

According to good buddy Scorp, I'm sharking you!



Why teach any of them?
Give them all a general over view, then move on to the important stuff,
like film study and ebonics language class.

Under that reasoning, why teach anything at all?

Woah woah woah.

You're going to have to prove that to me before I'll beleive it.

Please provide some kind of proof to validate this statement.



It's just like Jaws Baby!! And sky, it's Comrade Scorp!

Umm, Master,

Kinda on topic and kinda not but...

Why does the public school system have a course called sex education and fail to disclose ALL the education about sex?

Selective elective maybe?

Sex Ed = missionary position 101(marriage only)
Yet fails to explore sexuality. Too dangerous? Might ignite passion?

Well, the Bible classes offered in public schools aren't all that different.

Bible studies = Christian ideologies
Yet fail to explore religions. Too dangerous? Incite passions?

When you can fully explain to me the rationalization behind the teaching of penis/vaginal marital sex ONLY as being the ONLY acceptable way of sexual activity, save it for PROCREATION ONLY, as being a fully comprehensive course, then I'll listen to that same rationalization toward Bible studies in a public school.

I do, so theres one

Ra! Ra! Ra!

Go team go!

I am not hear to "prove" anything. I dont care if you believe it or not.


I am a firm believer in that fact that if you want the "real" truth, you are going to have to find it yourself. Anyway, what would you believe as "proof"? The only websites who really does this kinda things is Adherents.com, CIA world Fact book, UN, and the World Religous Organization.

Oh and if you ware curious, Eddie Murphy is one famous member of the Egyptian religion. There are more.




The answer is obvious and again, why point out one crack in a giant ass broken mirror?

What about economics? Why do they only learn about how to make a bank account and buy insurance, yet do not even go indepth with money managment, famous cons, proper bill paying, etc etc etc. Or why do we teach a history that is False? Or why do we only do PE for 30 minutes a wek now for elementry age children, with no outside activites, all to make time for EOGs?

There is so much wrong with our school system, the only real viable answer to that problem now is complete overhaul. Going back more to apprentice type mixed with small class room will be more effecient both for learning and community envolvment.





And? Not only are you complaing that the course are there, you are complaining that it is eenfective in its teachings? Must I point out in every post that there are already indepth class on many religions and their holy cannons, there are evn classes just on the books themselves as works of art and nothing about hte religion they hold.

Damn guys, pay far more attention to schools curiculum in general if you are going to have a hissy fit over things like this. I love when people only whine about crap only when its in the news. Are you going to be upset about our schools tomorrow, the next day? When will you drop this story for something more juicy? I hope you will never forget if it bothers you this much and I hope you try to do something about it.

My personal opinion is that we should never ever ever ever consider anything "forbidden" to learn. You start gonig around censuring things you dont agree with, what does that make you? A motherfucking Tyrannt. Change what you are learning, not what others are learning damn control freaks.

Id be willing to make a compramise, they can have bible study electives in public schools if we outlaw the bible from Sunday School.

They already have religous cannon study course in the public school system. Just remember, they are elective course, meaning they are not required for anything but a degree in Divinity (which I dont understand how you can get), theology, religous cultures and many other varients of religous study.

Do you not realize how innodated Christiany has become into American culture since the fifties? I am not saying it is right or wrong, just that it is.

Sorry, I don't buy this.

You need to back up certian things with evidence.

Otherwise I could say stuff like:

There are more communists in the world than Capitalists, therefore, Communism is the best ideology.

See how silly that sounds?

Your example is not even close to what I was saying, Scorp. I gave you four source to look up the info. If you dont believe me, then go find out for yourself.

You want to know why? Because not matter what you are talking about, you can find evidence for ether side. Anyone who says different, is just trying to "sell" you their side of the story.

Swinging a wide brush today, aren't we MM!!

This statement is so crazy, it doesn't even begin to make any sense!!!!

We played this game before, remember? I asked you to prove that gravity didn't exist.

You couldn't.

Proof is important. Very important. In fact, without proof, we shouldn't even bother with any political discussion.

Can you prove Communism is better then Despotism? No.

Can you prove what is right versus what is wrong? No.

Can you even prove that you observe every event around you? No.


Nothing can be "proven". All you can really find is someone else who agrees with you.

If you dont understand that, then.......Come on Scorp, as a history teacher, you should understand that concept.

You need to brush up on your Descartes my friend.

With your attidute, why do you ever post here?

If nothing can change, nobodies minds altered, why bother ever talking??

What you are arguing is an obscure form of historiography that very few historians actually believe in. "Nothing can be proven, therefore, there is no sense trying to prove anything."

Um.....that is not what I believe, but thank you for trying.

I believe the opposite really, nothing can be proven, because it is always changing. With so many variables effecting every single thing in our reality, nothing can truly remain the same very long. Take for instance my government, it is not even close to what it was when it was created, yet we still call it the same thing, so what has changed, the meaning of our title? The people who use the system? The system itself? Or other random variables?


You am assuming from how you post things Scorp, that you tink of things as being solid. Ether here or not here. One thing or the other. I do not see things in that manner. To me the world is just like the water that is it's blood. Fluid and ever changing, able to mold into anything willing to effect it. Another way to desribe it, is to understand a Quantum Mechanics theory of atom placement of something only being there while we observe it and once we do not, it can be everywhere or anywhere. I forget the name of the theory right off hand, but I am sure you are familir with it Scorp.

I am curious though, how did you get that I beleive nothing ever changes from what I posted? I only said nothing can ever be proven. In this instance, I was refuring to the fact that if something happens and you ask all the witnesses to the event, how many times will you get the same answer? And then no matter what really happened, only the majority of the views will be "proven".

Any more questions?

Uhhh.... OK.

Every time I bang my head on the wall, it hurts.

I think you're losing sight of the forest for the molecules, MM.

Actually, it's basic human nature to assume, to "fill in the blanks".
The best one can do is to always keep that in mind,
and apply the rule double to yourself.

Generally, this is an ability that is rarely mastered, and takes years to learn.
Our lifes experiences are what fills our personal dictionaries and encyclopedia's.
If the experience doesn't give is "the word" then to us it does not exist,
and we will be unable to see it in another.
And we will have no other choice but to assume, to "fill in the blank"

You are correct Sky, in fact our eyes can not observe motion and our brains fill in those gabs, hence montion looks blury to us. So I what you are saying Sky, but I am not sure how it applies to me. Aere you saying I am not seeing something and my mind is filling in the gabs? If so, what did I miss?


I think you have lost sight of the fact that the forest is made up of molecules, Ping. To see one, you see other, for the forest would not exist without the molecules. You know your statement is exactly what drives the Quantum guys from the GR guys. Personaly I am a M theorist, when it comes to those terms.

Funny thin is Ping, when you go past the forest to the molecules, the forest disappears completly, so is everything an illusion of molecules that our minds observee in shapes, sizes, and material, but really just random movements of molecules enteracting and our mind fills in what we do not understand?

I know this question is out there, but its not mine and I have tried to answer it before, with no avil. But you guys are way more learned then I am. Do you just think this is all quantum hogwash and GR is the obvious rule of law?

Oh and another question that has haunted me lately, totally off topic too, but here it goes. Why do vegetarians eat jello?