Megachurch

I am an atheist.

On that note, yesterday someone asked me to join some club that was religiously based, told them thanks, but I don't believe in god. The guy almost had a heart attack and said he had never in his life heard someone say that.

I believe there is a god and maybe an after life. I don't believe, however, that in order to be a good person i need to read a really old book or sit in a building every Sunday morning. Pleanty of people in this world have proved that you can go to church and be a horrible person.

I am an atheist.

I have a sense that there is something more than just what I experience in my day to day life, and that there is a spiritual aspect to existence just beyond my comprehension, but I don't know what that spirit is, nor do I think it important that I know. If there is a god, whether or not I believe in him/her/it/them will not change that reality.

I believe my purpose is to experience what life has to offer, to evaluate, and interact, to be in the moment and immerse myself in the experience. Spending my time trying to define or locate some higher power seems to me the antithesis of living. My time is here, now, in what I can sense and do. I have to believe that far from standing in judgement of superficial activities, any higher power would be more interested in seeing me/us squeeze every drop of life from each moment of conscious existence than in watching us supplicate ourselves to his/her/its/their ego.

I don't need a book to tell me what is right or wrong; I don't need the threat of a hell to encourage me to live well; I do not think any deity that demands my slavish worship is worthy of that worship; and I do not know, neither do I care what happens upon my death. I'm so very here, and that is what most matters.

KellyS

I am a proud member of a DISORGANIZED Religion.


I say, if yer religion is too well organized, then yer not thinkin for yerself!
You are an emotionally insecure spiritual sheep that wants, even needs to be lead!

That said, If you are religious, I'm sure not gonna complain about it.
You do after all, have that American right!


For me, I have found my own drummer.
And my drummer plays his tune only for me!

I voted No and I dont want to get into religion discussion with people who have no idea what they believe in.

MM,

Don'y you believe this statement to be just a tad bit condescending?

I mean, who are you to assume ANYONE doesn't know their own mind?




It's statements like this from you that really give me reason to pause.
I have no idea if you are joking or not, but either way, it's not OK.

Um....couple things to clear this right up.


First, since I commented in THIS discussion, I must be talking about "other" discussions.

Second, I was talking about organized religions, lets say Southern Baptists, just off the top of my head, where most of their parishers have no idea what they believe. Just ask them any complicated question about faith and they will ether say "Well the bible says...." or they will say "My preacher says...", rarely will you hear "I believe..." from them. So, would it be to much of a jump for you, Sky, to say from their own words, they dont know dick shit about their own faith?

Third, Do you just try to pick fights with me, instead of just asking what I ment? The way you worded your responce, does not indicate at all that you really want to know what I ment, just that you wanted to "comment" on what I have to say and that you disagree with it, whatever that message may be.

So tell me again, why its not OK ether way.

Thank you for explaining, now I understand much more of what you intended, without having to assume.
I stated my reply and question just as carefully as I could so as to not offend, and this was my intention.

You know, and you guys may get so mad at me for saying it, but it's honestly like you (Sky and MM) are too much alike to realize how alike you are. Obviously, I mean this is no mean way to either of you, as I like both of you and enjoy the information and ideas you provide here. But I swear, were you my children, or if I had the both of you here with me, I would just lock your asses in a room and make you stay until you could decide to get along.

Thinking about it now, that post was in haste and I didnt really explain myself properly and thus you questioned it. I am sorry for that and should have said such in my previous reply.

I just thought the "Its not ok ether way" was a little pushing it on your part, I am still in the dark as to why you thought this. I admit this might have caused the above mentioned reply to be less then desirable.

Sorry mom. We promise it won't ever happen again.


Can we go play now?

Only if you agree to play nicely. If not, ya'll are going to bed without dinner tonight! And definitely not playing on the computer for the rest of the day!!!!!

I promise mom, honest!

I'm Buddhist. So I wouldn't call it an "organized" religion.

More of a disorganized religion.

The only one that i would ever consider joining. Who has ever heard of war in the name of Budda?

Religion is bad for you.

Religion, if it's what you need, then it;s good for you!
Just don't expect what is good for you, to be good for me!


I don't think religion is bad.
I think people who use religion for less than noble reasons are bad!

The spiritual aspect of religion has a very real and important place in the human psyche.
It's when the religion becomes socio-economically political.....
this is why the founders wanted seperation of church and state!

In the same way that we don't want the military running the country,
we also do not want religion running it!
I think many Americans are now, thanks to Bumbling Bush, starting to realize,
that we also do not want the corporations running America!

That in fact, who we DO want running America,
is the people, doing so in the name of the people.



Anyway, I rant.
Religion has it's place.
As long as I'm not required to participate!

I think I used to be religiously inclined - but that was way back when. At about the age of 12, I started asking hard questions and never received the type of answers that would dispel the doubts that led to the hard questions.
Naturally, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. Do you know what's the largest religious denomination in the world? Fallen Catholics! (Not my idea: I got it from Stephanie Miller)
I guess I don't have to say a lot more. You lose your saints and then you lose your religion (that's me in the corner). The more a religion piles on, the more that can be shed; the more that's shed, the more shallow the belief.
It occurs to me that if you wanted to start a religion, you'd do well to make it as bare-bones as possible - not a lot of layers and nonsense easily disproved. But, that's not the way it works, is it?
I believe in goodness for goodness' sake and I guess you could call me a Secular Humanist.

Sorry sky, have to disagree.

Any institution that tells you what to think or how to act is simply wrong. It's wrong on the most base level, because it takes away one of our most important qualities, the ability to think critically.

Religion severly retards this, and we see evidence of it every day.

Nobody should ever tell anybody else how to think or act or behave.

I hear ya Scorp, but as I see it,
the religion couldn't tell them anything, if they didn't wanna be told!

And since these sorts of people are part of the human equation,
it might as well be a relion that leads them,
lets just hope it's not a Jim Jones religion!

But again, the religion is harmless words.
its the religious leaders that give the problems!

Like any opiat of the mass's, this drug simply needs to be very softly regulated.

Figured taht this was a good place to show the lyrics to my favourite Tool song, OPIATE:

"Opiate"

Choices always were a problem for you.
What you need is someone strong to guide you.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow,
what you need is someone strong to guide you..
like me, like me, like me, like me

If you want to get your soul to heaven,
trust in me .
Now don't you judge or question.
You are broken now ,
but faith can heal you.
Just do everything I tell you to do.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow.
What you need is someone strong to guide you.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow.
Let me lay my holy hand upon you.

My Gods will
becomes me.
When he speaks out,
he speaks through me.
He has needs
like I do.
We both want
to rape you.

[x2]
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life now
Open my eyes and blind me with your light

If you want to get your soul to heaven,
trust in me .
Now don't you judge or question.
You are broken now ,
but faith can heal you.
Just do everything I tell you to do.

[x2]
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life now.
Open my eyes, blind me with your light now.

Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow,
Let me lay my holy hand upon you.

My Gods will
becomes me.
When he speaks,
he speaks through me.
He has needs
like I do.
We both want
to rape you

Think Scorp is against Organized Religion and Sky is pro-spiritual. You guys do know those are two completly different things you are talking about? It doesnt make since for you two to be disagreeing on two different things.

Its like Sky is saying football is entertaining and Scorp is saying baseball sucks and should be banned. See what I mean?



For the Record, I am against Organized Religion and Pro-Spritiual. Maybe that is why I saw the difference, because I aggried with both of them. Hmmmmmm. VT, you didnt warn me this thinking would hurt so much.

Oh and Tool is one of my fav bands.

MM, I see exactly what you are saying.

I think that if people need some spirituality, that is fine.

But don't go to church looking for it.

Religion, or any institution, that creates a dogma and expects people to follow it blindly is harmful to people (Marxism doesn't count )

Dogma creeps me out, but I must admit, I know several people whose lives were much improved, even saved, by joining a religious community, my uncle among them. While I tend to agree with Scorp that religions too often relieve people of the need to think for themselves, some religious communities have sufficient good qualities that they can sometimes improve the human condition. For those not broken or in need of ongoing guidance in their lives this seems a dangerous and repulsive thing, but those not broken can rarely put themselves in the shoes of those who are but who found a form of personal salvation (not to be confused with spiritual salvation, which I think is a crock of shit) in religion. That we don't understand it does not mean religion is all bad. Lumping all of the religious together as hypocritical sheep is akin to their lumping all of we non-religious together as immoral hedonists. Neither generalization is accurate.

It was a religious community that finally rescued my uncle from the drug community from which he could not, on his own, extricate himself. It can be argued that religion is smply another drug and that he simply substituted one addiction for another by turning to a church (a very fundamentalist church, no less), but he is now the mayor of a small town in Oregon, has been married more than 20 years, has two children, owns a business and is a very good man. His past is littered with assault convictions, drug and robbery arrests, multpile trips to rehab and a level of declining health that left my mother believing that he was unlikely to survive his twenties. I do not believe that without the church's intervention he would be alive today, thus, I am grateful to the church that helped to save my uncle. I am convinced that his religious addiction is far better for both he and the community than his drug addiction.

I am not prepared to make judgements on anyone else's spiritual or religious choices. Though I have met many truly ignorant religious people, I know too many devoutly religious people whose intellect leaves me breathless to say everyone who adopts a church dogma is stupid. I don't understand how any thinking person can hand over their intellect to a 2000 year old myth, but my inability to understand is not proof of their stupdity. I suspect our different perspectives has much to do with how each individual experiences life, and until I am able to live another's experience, I do not feel qualified to pass judgement.

Now, when the religious begin to force their views on me, we have another issue alltogether!

Though it's a rather large nutshell,
none the less, that is the nutshell.


Thanks VT
Well done!

I love ya VT, but I gotta take a go at this.



There's a lot here, but let me see if I get this right. Some people, the mentally unstable kind, may need church groups to get their lives together.

Well, there are groups dedicated to helping people that are not affiliated with the church, and I would offer that these are a much better option.

My father struggled with mental illness until his suicide, so I know a few things about those with major problems. He tried different things, church included, but it didn't help (but this is beside the point). My point is that there is help for those who need it, and it can be found outside of a church.

I would argue that if help comes with the kind of strings / brainwashing that comes with church help, then it's not worth it.




I do not want to sound like an asshole, so please don't think that I'm insulting or attacking your uncle in any way. What he did was amazing, and I'm happy to hear that he turned his life around.

But you mention that his church addiction is better than his drug one. On the surface, I'd agree. But both have some heavy side effects, and the chuch addiciton is all the more sinister because its effects are much more subtle.



While I do not disagree that people can be stupid / ignorant regardless of their spirituality or lack of it, I think that willingly allowing yourself to be told what to think / do is terrible, and if you are so willing to give up your own mind and thoughts, then you deserve whatever ills the church feeds you later on.

Just my 0.02.

It's a very worthwhile 2 cents you posted Scorp.

But, your worthwhile 2 cents might not be somebody else's 2 cents,
just as the churches 2 cents, are not your 2 cents!

As long as you don't insist that I accept your 2 cents,
then you honor my right to have my own 2 cents,
and in which case, I might of my own choosing,
add your 2 cents to my 2 cents.

Or maybe not!


It's about perspective and fairness.
Be willing to give that which you would ask for.
Be willing to accept, that which you would offer!

I dont know about all you, but I have more then $0.02

I agree, but the church doesn't. They say that their 2 cents are the ONLY 2 cents in town, and if you don't like it, YOU CAN GO TO HELL (literally).

That is my issue with the church. Overreaching and brutal arrogance, to the point that if you don't sign on, you will be punished.

Now, some religions are like militias and try to recruit you (Mormons and jehova's come to mind) but ALL branches of Christianity state that if you don't follow them, you're pretty much fucked.

Talk about arrogance.

For some, church groups can be one option of many, yes.


That value judgement is something I don't think can be made on behalf of someone else. While there are certainly excellent secular groups available to those who are lost, I would maintain that the group that successfully liberates someone from a destructive situation has demonstrated their value. Non-secular groups are often able to do this as well as secular.


No argument. Were it my choice I would not choose a religios organization. There are those, however, for whom a religious group resonates.

Can you stand another personal story? You know my uncle, the mayor of small town Oregon? His wife, who is a wonderful woman, was diagnosed three years ago with anorexia/bulimia, which is a growing problem in pre-menopausal women. She was considered unretrievable by two clinics specializing in treatment of late-onset anorexia. A deeply religious woman, when these two clinics failed, she and my uncle went against the family's wishes and sent her to a church-based anorexia treatment facility in Arizona. She was there 9 months, but came home in recovery. Though she continues to fight, she is now at normal weight, and is winning the battle that she will fight the rest of her life. I don't begin to understand why the religious nature of the treatment solidified her commitment to recovery, but she was more ammenable to the religious overtones than with the secular approach taken bu the previous doctors. I don't like religion, but I cannot argue that it has had a profoundly positive impact on both my aunt and uncle.

I do not for one moment mean to imply that religious groups are for everyone, or are always beneficial, but neither can it be said that they are all bad, as evidenced by members of my family.

I want to be very clear, too, that I do not believe for a moment that it was the act of a higher power that rescued my relatives, though both will tell you otherwise. I believe that the religious message for some reason resonates with them, making it possible for them to self heal in a way that a secular treatment did not. Religion reaches them. I can't argue with that.


Certainly in the case of my aunt, the alternative to the religious brainwashing was likely death. I think hers was the better choice.


I found nothing offensive in any of your statements, Scorp. What the hell is happening to us with this getting along thing we've suddenly discovered?!?


I can't argue with this, and I don't pretend to be wholly comfortable with my aunt 'sand unble's attachment to church dogma and the potentially insidious effects. Religion was a means of recovery for both of them, however, and both are happy, healthy, productive members of the community as measured by any generally accepted metric. This convinces me that religion cannot be painted as all bad.


I, too think it terrible, but that is our perception/experience, Scorp. I know many intelligent, well-adjusted people whose experience says otherwise, validating Sky's repeated statement that the value of religion is determined by the individual. It ain't for me, and it ain't for you, but I am grateful it was there when my relatives needed it.

Good call VT.

I don't know why we get along now... I liked it better when I said stuff like:



That's one of my better ones, I think.

Back to the thread though, I agree totally that some people find comfort in religion, but I think that it acts as a crutch.

I'm happy that your aunt and uncle are overcoming their difficulites, but I worry about what they had to give up in order to get to the place they are in now.

A Pyrrhic victory, perhaps?

Eh, it was ok.



It does make one wonder who will deprogram the religious brainwashing that reprogrammed them from their previous mental illnesses should the need ever arise.


Could very well be...

When you say "The Church" that has historically always been The Catholic Church with it's Pope.
The protestants don't have a "Pope" or singular world leader in charge of all ultimate decision making.

"The Church" has always been at odds with the secular rulers, and this is why still to this day they weild so much control over their followers! Church law and secular law are not the same law.


And if "The Church" says that if I don't agree I'll go to hell? So be it! I can deal with that!
Remeber, this is the same church who at one time had a Pope who, in an effort to raise money for his personal lifestyle, actually sold script good for admission into heaven!


One must be careful and not lump all religion under the Christian banner,
and by the same reasoning, The Catholic sect (cult) is a minority of Christians.