This is a transcript of Joe Vecchio's daily "Cup O' Joe Report" podcast, availaible via "screaming audio" here and posted with the permission of the author.

As the Senate gets ready to decide whether or not to confirm Judge Alito to the Supreme Court, the left is trying to get us to contact those Senators that are still on the fence and tell them to prevent the nomination. Being the skeptic I am, I'm not sure what kind of effect even thousands of such calls would make on someone who can get more votes with massive campaign contributions than votes they might lose in protest. Especially if those callers are from out of state. And more especially if the Senator is in a state where the votes are counted by machines owned by the same corporations who would be donating.

It occurred to me, however, that any Senator who votes to place Alito on the bench is quite possibly voting to make their own jobs irrelevant. If Mr. Bush believes, as he says he does, that he has the right to break the law if he deems it necessary for national security, and he has a Supreme Court willing to back him up on it, what purpose does the Senate and Congress have? Could they even impeach him if it came down to it, or prevent him from declaring martial law? Maybe they'll be happy to keep their positions even if it's just ceremonial. The money and benefits are still good.

I'm not going to say what will or what won't happen, but it seems to me that it's awfully dangerous for the Senate to vote away its authority. And maybe that's what we ought to tell them if we call them up. Because once that authority is gone, it's going to be tough to get it back.

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here's an even better question for all you pessimists.


How will the conservatives, including Alito, act and react,
if (and when) Bush is impeached???

I'm not pessimistic, I'm skeptical. We've lost pretty much every battle on every issue over the last five years, and until I see any real progress I'll continue to tell it like it is, thank you very much.

Do I want to see Bush impeached? Of course, and I've said so. Do I think it's going to happen? I sincerely doubt it. But hey I hope I'm wrong.

If you can't see the success's, then you aren't much value to me,
or yourself,
or the cause.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but I'm tired of all your narrow minded supposed liberal visions!



I say it again.

If more liberals sounded like we do here,
someone might accuse the Democrats of having no backbone!

No, it will only make congressional dissent by the Left irrelevant. Sad to say, there are moral and ethical cowards on our side of the aisle as well as the other, who see the fascist take-over of the US as inevitable. They will go along to get along, if we let them. By definition, WE are the spine of the Democratic party (and process) that we keep accusing the Democrats of not having. We have to quit letting our people play for the other team. Tell them that if they vote with the republicans, we'll vote 'em out, even if the only choice is a fucking republican. If we're gonna have one in there anyway, it might as well be one we can vote against next time around in good conscience, with the possibility of getting something better. Don't go thinking our precious goddam Democrats are incorruptible. They, themselves, have shown us otherwise. Take their fuckin' hand out of your pocket long enough to twist their goddam arm.

I think it's a race between Bush cementing his Fascist power grab and proclaiming himself dictator, and him being impeached.

And yes somedays I REALLY believe the former could happen.

Funny, you sound just like a neocon: Clap harder and everything will be all right. Tell me,what successes have we had in the last five years? The GOP has lost some players, true, but they're still running on all cylinders. The Democratic leadership is still too timid to challenge a President with a 36% approval rating and the so-called "professional" media is still publishing Republican lies as fact. I'm not saying we can't win, I'n just pointing out how bad things are.

If I sound harsh, I'm sorry: I think I have very good reasons to be skeptical, and knowing what I know about history makes what's going on even more troubling. When I posted the Jane, You Ignorant Slut comment on Democratic Underground, I was almost immediately accused of sexism, and the post was deleted altogether from Smirking Chimp. Cindy Sheehan made a post on Daily Kos where she used the term "trail of tears" to decribe events in Iraq and she was almost immediately attacked by someone for using a term offensive to Native Americans. It seems to me that we do more damage to our cause by attacking each other.

I am not your enemy, and just because I say things that make you and others uncomfortable doesn't make me so. My post was not negative, in fact I believe it would be a good selling point to a Senator to let he or she know that they are possibly destroying their authority by voting for cloture. The question is whether they will listen to their constituents or their donors, and judging from the events of the last five years I think I have a pretty good idea what choice they'll make.

If you prefer to hide from and disavow any negative attitude, I can live with that.
It's your world after all.

But to accuse me of being a neocon, or even conservative simply because I rail against
all the liberal negativity, then you do not only me but your self the disservice of self imposed deception!
And like the negativity, you accomplish nothing!

Call it pessimism, or skepticism, or even just being realistic,
negativity feeds on negativity!

When you harp on and on about how it's all pointless,
and back up your opinion with countless examples of your negative rationalization,
WITH OUT the benefit of any of the True positive aspects and TRUTHS,
then others, like me, who are struggling to remain hopeful and continue to fight on
even against the odds, in the same way the original white rose society did
your negativity brings us down. You help us to defeat ourselves
and the TRUE neocons will love you for it, god bless you!

I simply do not need you or anyone to tell me how fucked up things are
and just how hopeless things appear to be!
Fuck you, I am not blind! I am as able as you or anyone else to read,
to research and to understand exfuckingzactly what this all means!

Just why in the hell do you think I post so much shit?
Because it's fun?

OK. I think I've about exploded enough!
All you skeptical realist out there can kiss my liberal ass!
Leave America, leave now! We do not need you!

I would much rather spend my energy working to bring down the house of Bush,
then try to convince any of how pathetically useless your negativity is!
And in fact, just how much you hurt the cause!

As long as you believe you cannot win, you fucking never will!
And I'm sorry, but that shit is simply not allowed in my world!

Fuck you all, I'll do this by myself if I have too!
If any of you feel shocked at what I have just written
GOOD!
You likely need it!
Like a kid that does not hear
until daddy screams it at the top of his lungs



Sorry TJ, maybe you better give me a little time out time.

Can I send you some Prozac or something?

If you think your biting sarcasm makes you more correct,
or even a better human being than I am,

I'll let you be the first to kiss my ass!

I sometimes get sucked into the hole of "what's the point", as many of us do. But the truth is that things are changing. Joe, you haven't been here long, but I have read each of your posts, because I hope everyone has something to say. I have to agree with Sky that much of what you write is actually quite negative. I'm not saying it's not true, but it does seem to only focus on what is wrong. I know that I personally usually post stories I find that have really negative connotations, but I do so in wanting to prompt a meaningful discussion with the members of this forum, because we all have something to say and many, many great ideas on how to change things. You will notice, we try to focus on the positive, not because we are all sitting with our heads in the sand, because frankly, if we were, we would all be sheep and not even care to come to places like this forum, much less even care to know what's actually going on in this world.

Definitely the things that are happening are bad, but not everything. We are doing something good. Read the post about how each of us found out about PNAC, you will see there are several "former" neo-cons among us. Not because we tracked them down, forced their hand and made them change their ways, but because they found places like this forum and many others where the were honestly informed about things.

Post your discussions, but expect that we are going to want some ideas for change. This is not a site devoted to pity or feeling sorry for us poor liberals who are lost behind. We are not such a minority as you seem to think. I have read your posts here, and you have interesting and valid points. But it's not the end of the world. Contrary to the beliefs of so many delusional wingers out there, we are not about to have god himself come down to earth and end it all, nor are we going to allow ourselves to become part of a fascist state. Share your ideas, but also try to spread the TRUTH that LIBERALS can change things; That we can come out of this.

Thanks Lefty,

Just a quick addition.

This isn't just about Joe.
He just happen to be that one negative post that sent me to the scream room.

This applies to everyone who's figured they can't beat bushco!
If that's what you think,
we don't need you, and I don't want you!


As I said, i'd much rather focus my energies where they'll do more good.

yeah, it's really a race to see if we can get control of the house and Bush impeached before he cements his hold over the courts. Of course, to do that, we'll have to ensure free and fair elections, and that's not even on the radar. But stranger things have happened. I have hope, but not much. All is not lost but the cards are really stacked against us. I'm afraid we may be seeing the death of the democratic republic as it was planned.

4 words.

The White Rose Society!

The WRS is a good thing and much needed in the resistence to the Bushies. But reality and cold, hard evidence make me say that none of the websites like ours are having much effect against a huge Repub-Diebold-Chicken Little-touting giant such as what has our country in its clutches at the present time. (Yes, it's time for OBL to collect his "hazard pay," and go back to his shelf until he's needed again.)

That giant has read the American people so correctly. The majority of the American people aren't capable of thinking critically. We're a generation of dunces. We at the POAC do our best to get out the truth, but we're awfully small compared to the big msm corporations. We're stoning them with popcorn. We're just so many gnats flying into their faces. We're the squeaky wheel that to Bush is just "background noise." Most Americans don't care about what's happening to them! Yes, it's important, this swarming about, throwing popcorn, and continuing to be aggravating background noise. Hey, you can bet your boots I fully intend to continue to do it, but I'm afraid it makes very little difference.

Changing the minds and hearts of those who have been snowed by the Bushies one at a time isn't going to achieve much. Why aren't the Democratic senators/reps doing something to really make a difference? They don't care, either! They've got their paychecks, and their pensions sown up. They've got their personal fortunes hidden in who knows where and how many bank accounts! They're OK and will be ok...why should they care about us? We the People are just too wee!

The Bush Administration has done so many bad things and never, ever been held accountable. About the only thing they've failed to do is "update" Social Security, and I guarantee that's sitting on the back burner for "just a little later." Even Rove feels confident enough to once again surface!

It's going to take something more, and something pretty profound, to bring this regime to its knees, and I don't really know what it is. I'm hoping for the 2006 election to be the turning point, but that remains to be seen. Do our votes count anymore, anyway? Probably not. I"ll go vote, but I will wonder... just who will actually get my one little vote?

Yep, I'm feeling very pessimistic...and I don't think I'm wrong to feel that way, even though I hate this feeling. Pollyanna might as well go back home and hide under the bed because the worst is yet to come. Just wait until the SCOTUS gives Bush even more power.

I have to agree with Joe on this one. The Congress has its collective head up its collective ass so far that it can't even see that it's about to committ suicide.

Catherine

Catherine,

I can't and won't deny the facts either.

What is am taking issue with, is the perceived reality.

Facts are facts. Black and white.
Reality is an entirely subjective thing.


Understand me. I'm feeling pessimistic too!
I don't feel it likely this web site will have any direct push on current events.
Never expected it would.

What I am trying to point out here is that very few of us realize that on other levels,
yes, we have some significant successes we can count.

I am also still hopefull that the man himself might be impeached!
I know most of you doubt this, but I look at the numbers and consider it quite doable.



Those who were the original White Rose Society had a drastically more difficult situation.
Those people were a tiny handful.
They didn't give up. Instead, they actively looked for ways to beat that system!
And for as long as they lasted, they were a constant thorn in the side of the Nazi's.

I'm sure they had their days when they sat around moping and feeling sorry for them selves too!
I'm also certain they "got over it" and did what they could do, without regrets for what they could not do!



Reread the history of the White Rose Society,
and then ask yourself,
Is my glass half full?
Or shall I poke a hole in it to be sure it's empty?


It's all about perception people.
Truth and facts are one thing,
but in the end, how you perseive them is what matters!

You know, we keep going around the table and assuming Bush and his croonies are Fascist, but what if they are Apocolyptist? What if their plan is to end the world?

You know, it's easy for someone with a six figure income and 27,000 sq, ft. of house to say,"fuck it, we're gonna lose no matter what" and throw in the towel. You are not going to lose much, if anything. The tax breaks bushco is enacting favor you anyway. Come on down here, to the greater reality that most Americans experience. More and more of the working class is being bulldozed into poverty to fatten your fucking portfolios. America is the most highly incarcerated nation in the God damned world, and the people who are doing time are doing time because they can't afford the kind of lawyers that keep the wealthy walking free. What the HELL are you doing here? "Well, shoot, we might as well all give up." Democracy may be a hobby for some of you, but down here, it is all we have left. Fuck you. Quit. Go home. When you leave the opera one evening, you may find your three ton gas hog in flames, though, because some of us can't afford to give up, and will die on our feet rather than live on our knees. For the majority of Americans today, democracy and freedom are still just fucking promises. If you are still driving an SUV to the corner store for a loaf of designer bread, fuck you. You're one of them, and part of the problem, anyway. Pay your taxes with the blood and sweat of the poor, subsidize their, and eventually your, oppression, have some more cabernet and another line, and think about how lucky you are and how great it is to be an American.

WOW...quite a discussion! Glad it isn't going on in MY house (likes it peaceful around here)...anyway, I gotta pitch in with my .02 worth. I think that the upcoming PROCESS of impeachment hearings is nearly as important as impeachment itself. The PROCESS will bring out very publicly a lot of dirt the chimp has been sweeping under the sofa with the pretzel duff.

I find it unbelievable that we have a 'president' who admits to felony law breaking and says he is going to continue to do it. To thier credit, there have been lots of Dems and a few Repubs who have spoken thier outrage about this domestic spying. I truly believe that in the next couple years we are going to hear a LOT about his law breaking ways.

As Fitzgerald's investigations and prosecutions continue, I think we will see a LOT of Republicans fall away. Too bad we couldn't get the Fitzgerald movie BEFORE the Alito flick, eh?

When I think about leaving the USA for New Zealand or whatnot, it is a veteran who will be 60 this year who is more than a little concerned about health care for himself and his missus as they grow older. I guess I don't discuss it with much of anyone because it is really nobody else's bidness.

I have 'met' quite a number of onliner people who know about this site and respect it immensly.

Alright then, over and OUT.
Natch.

I can only assume, from what I read, that posting in forums is the limit of political activity for many here. Sad for all of us.

Apathy is far worse than pessimism. If people didn't care, they wouldn't be making their voices heard here and other places. They're looking for answers, support and the occassional insight that will make them more hopeful. On a larger scale they're looking for leadership. If a disgruntled liberal can't vent here of all places what good are we? What I really wanted to share that kind of applies here is this quote from the Inside Edge feature of my local paper: "When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by force. When it is relinquished voluntarily by default it can never be recovered."__Dorothy Thompson, American newspaper columnist (1894-1961).

I agree with Dorothy Thompson...if they get it, they'll have to take it. I'm not giving it up. For the sake of future generations, here and abroad.

Wow sky, I've never seen an outburst like that here...

Just because somebody has a different outlook, or is not as optimistic than you, do they deserve to be told to "fuck off"? I don't think so.

Henry Ford was an engineering wizard,a fascist, a racist and a capitalis' capitalist. He was also a cynic, but was credited with saying this;"Whether you believe you can or you believe you cannot, you are right." One of the few things about him I find admirable.

Scorp, you know I love you man, but I HAVE to point out the fact you waved away people on this forum before for having a "different" view then you.


But back to the topic at hand. I stand with Zooks.

Yes, I do think that Samuel Alito will make Congress irrelevant, and I also think he favors elites over people.
I've said it before, he's just a walking disaster for democracy and republicanism on steroids.

Today's Republicans in away remind me of the Radical Republicans during and after the civil war. Evil bastards. Alito will further expand the powers of the executive branch over the other two. I do not fear Bush, I fear his heir.

Zooks, I always love the things you have to say!




There is not a fucking thing to be embarrassed about to say you are an american. Saying you are an american isn't saying "I LOVE BUSH, He is GREAT, go big corporations". It is saying that you support freedom; freedom of speech and travel and freedom to be who you want, to think what you want, and to do what you want. It means that its ok to want equality for all, to want to help everyone, to want GOOD programs like social welfare, foodstamps, pell grants, government backed student loans...

It IS great to be an American. I am proud of it.

Just because there is a portion, of which I am not so certain is the majority, of Americans who have decided that money is more important that humans, animals and nature, doesn't mean that all americans think that way, because they really don't. You have to understand that not everyone KNOWS how to think for themselves, not because they are pieces of shit, but because they have been taught to think in a way that doesn't encourage free thought or free speech and certainly doesn't allow dessent. It doesn't make them bad. It makes them uninformed. Each of us, every single one of us, knows a "republican" who is a GREAT person. They take care of their family, support social welfare programs, do kind things, volunteer at homeless shelters, give to the needy among us, and generally care. Are they "bad" because they don't know better. NO. It's our self appointed job to help lead them to the "light"...to show them that there is something better, to help them realize they can have power, they don't have to follow the crowd and that they can show dissent. (Shit, I so cannot fucking spell today). Seriously, I am not trying to back up the pathetic people who are now controlling our country, I am trying to spread the word that we don't have to let corporations dictate our lives, that we don't have terrorist to fear, that we can be a peaceful nation.

I have always been a sort of non-materialist, in that I have never known wealth and gotten along just fine. I have a house and a son and a dog and a cat and that makes me happy. I grow flowers in the summer and herbs and a few veggies and that's all I need. I guess I always thought that was sort of the "ideal" of the left. I thought we aren't the ones who are money hungry freaks who constantly want, want, want. I know i am not. I just want to feed my son half way decent, non-genetically engineered food and to clothe him in things that weren't created by the subdigation of some poor woman in a third world country. Ya'll we still have a mission. Things won't be this hard forever. It is going to be better. Bushco may have this grand plan, but it doesn't mean its going to all work out for them. Some times we (the progressives) may be the "minority", but it doesn't mean we don't make a difference. So, if we lose this one, and bush gets to remain king until the next election, it doesn't mean there isn't work to do. It doesn't mean that there are not people we can help. It doesn't mean there is any more reason to give up than if the progressives were in charge. Do you think this is some game? That we are just trying to win? I'm not trying to win anything. I just want to help make MY world a better place. I cannot save the world, but I sure as fuck can help somethings to change.

I am not downing your post left and in fact I agree in alot of ways with it, but I found it rather amussing how much you sound like an early Christian talking to a "heathen". I am not saying you are doing such here, just if you take away your background theme and insert that one it is almost word for word, like something Yeshuwa or his direct followers would have said about being a Christian to say a Roman or an Egyptian.

Again I ment no discourse about this and only wish to point out the humour of it, from a religous scholar's stand point. It just shows how much Modern Christians have strayed from their "true" teachings and the fact that Yeshuwa was a liberal.

WELL PUT LEFTINRIGHTSOUTH!

True, but I have never been as blunt as sky was here. Still, I respectfully withdraw my previous post, as it was quite hypocritical of me.

My point, my hope, and my energy was spent in trying to get some of you to consider your actions.
I deliberately made it as emotional as I could, without being down right nasty and rude.
I intended to call this forum on the carpet for it's self defeating negativity.
You were all that much more likely to hear what you were reading.
If you must be a negative sort of person, please do it someplace else.
It's very hard to remain posative and focused when members of your own team are ready to go home.



Negativity feeds negativity, which ultimately feeds failure!

The Rethugnicans are working not stop to shut down all liberal argument.
We do not need to help them by defeating our selves though whining, self pity and defeatism.
(and don't ever again tell me you were just being realistic. That's about condescending enough to be just shitty nasty rude)


Bushco can be stopped.
And just because it hasn't happened yet,
just because no one has figured out that rosetta stone yet, '
does NOT mean it can't happen!


If the members of the Original White Rose Society had felt as some of you seem to feel,
they would never have been active, never carried those fliers and been caught.
They might never have existed at all.
Did they stop the nazi's in Germany? Clearly no!
Were their efforts noble and worthy?

Answer that question for yourself.



I would personally much prefer a forum that supports a posative agenda.
I don't mean simply being optomistic!
I mean along with the posts about how bad things are,
along with all the conspriacy theories,
post ideas and links that suggest alternatives,
links to places that offer active things to help.

I know people who are freeway bloggers!
These are PROACTIVE people!
I know people who write several letters a week.
These are PROACTIVE people!
I know people who stand up and question the logic of the conservatives in their lives.
These are PROACTIVE people!
I know people who are involved with local politics!
And these are also PROACTIVE people!
I know a guy and his wife who put in long hours every day, working on a Liberal News site and liberal forum,
and I would bet haven't had a real vacation together in years!
These are PROACTIVE people!


I want these kinds of people around me
I want PROACTIVE people in my world!

Today, will be the history you will be judged for,
when your kids have kids!
It is my sincere hope and wish for them to be proud of the heritage we leave behind.


Years ago when my hair was much longer and had no gray streaks,
In those years before Reagan, when the worst we knew was Nixon,
way back when we had a saying.....

If you're not a part of the solution,
then you're a part of the problem!




Edit to add one more thing......

The only way this site is gonna grow
and be everything TJ and Robin would hope for it to be,
is either to let it became a slug fest political DEBATE forum,
which he has made it clear he does not want to do.
Or to have people populate it that are vibrant and active,
leaders with the sorts of posative personalities others want to be around,
and to be a part of what they're a part of!

No one want's to hang with a whiner,
except maybe other whiners.

Holy cow! What did I start?

I don't know if Gadzooks was referring to me when he said it's easy for someone with a six figure income and 27,000 sq, ft. of house to say,"fuck it, we're gonna lose no matter what" and throw in the towel, but I assure you that doesn't reflect me. I live in a small basement apartment, I've been unemployed for two of the last three years, and I live on food stamps and the occasional donation. If it weren't for the goodwill of my landlord I'd be homeless right now.

Also, and for the record, I believe that the Bush administration, the GOP leadership, and their financial backers ought to be removed from power, placed under arrest, and turned over to an international tribunal to face charges of war crimes. They are a greater threat to the United States and he world than Osama bin Laden will ever be.

And I'm sorry but I don't buy the "negative" tag that I've been labelled with. I've never said that we can't win, I just point out how far we have to go. This is a class war: the Republicans and the media elite are working hard to destroy the middle class. The fact that Bush's poll ratings are at 36% and more than half want him impeached tells you that the public is definitely with us, but since the corporations own the media markets that info is rarely publicized, so people sometimes just don't know they're not so alone. Intimidation in the workplace occurs too: people know they can lose their jobs if they express the "wrong" political views.

I've hardly given up: if I had I wouldn't bother coming in here at all, or doing the reports or the radio show. I'm proud to be part of the White Rose team and I will continue to speak out to the best of my abilities. I want us to win more than anything but part of that means recognizing what our position is. I'm sorry, but saying we merely have to "stay positive" isn't enough. That's the attitude the neocons have with Iraq, and it isn't working for them, either. The first step in solving a problem is recognizing that the problem exists.

My vision for the future? When we get our country back, and we will, we have to think bigger. The American Revolution wasn't about seceding from Britain, it was about the revolutionary idea of self-rule, which rose and fell in Athens and Rome. That, more than anything, is what we are trying to preserve. This isn't about saving the United States or making things better for American workers, this is about saving the human race. We can't want one standard of living for us and another standard for everyone else, we have to fight for the same rights and quality of life for people in China, Mexico, Iraq, and all over as we do for us. Only then can we break the cycle of history and create, maybe not a perfect world, but at least a better one.

Speaking for myself, and I believe Zooks and a couple others would agree,
The nature and content of these threads were not intended for anyone in perticular,
and for everyone in general.

For all of us to think a moment.

I didn't wish to hammer on any person, even though sometimes I know it looks that way.
I couldn't qualify the statements in a way to avoid having it look that way.
No one was off the hook. We have an issue here, I believe we have a problem with negativism.

Although it's a new day, i'm fresh and work hasn't worn me down yet, lets just see how it goes,
m kay?



Sorry if I offended anyone.
I certainly wasn't after any individuals.

Um.....I dont really care if I hurt peoples feeling. In fact, fuck it, some feelings need to be hurt. I think all this PC crap is what caused the American people to paint themselves into a corner. Now to get out we just have to admite we are going to have to get paint on our feet and fuck up the paint job we have.


Zooks is a bad influence with that fuck word.