Hello all,

I got into an interesting topic, then checked it out on the 'net, and am asking for an oppinion based on the facts you know or percieve:

Does the 'non profit' group (and formerly tax exempt) Christian Coalition infringe upon the separation of Church and State?

I mean, aren't they a lobby group to try to use churches to promote thier candidate and shape our laws?

Does the contitution really say the church and state must be separate, or not advocate any particular religion?

What about how it protects our own choice of religion under the Bill of Rights in the 1st Ammendment? Is it illegal or unconstitutional for a church to promote a political candidate, or is it just a violation of the 503 IRS tax exempt rules?

Didn't Pat Robertson get in hot water for distributing voting guides in 92 or 94 on who to vote for based on thier version and interpretation of thier scriptures before stepping down in 2001?

Wasn't the pre amble and Declaration of Independance clear about the writers of the Constitution on what role a church has to do with governments and kings?

I read the 'about us' at the Moral Majority, WallBuilders, the Heritage Foundation, Focus on the Family, and Christian Coalition and most shared a dominionist reconstructionist view that they feel that our Constitution was founded upon the Old Testament version of God and 10 commandments, and we should enforce what boils down to a Sharia like law, what the Taliban was singled out for doing and violating a slew of human and civil rights. What gets me is this same text has been removed from public schools for being considered profane, obscene and XXX rated material that advocated unnequal treatment and genocide to name a few.

But a coalition of Christians to lobby Congress, which is made of of 'family oriented' reps from organizations such as the AFA, Focus on Family, and are against anything that may weaken thier definition of a family or what they approve of as a family, even if it means to deny rights and equality to people.

Here is the 'about us' Christian Coalition of America is a political organization, made up of pro-family Americans who care deeply about becoming active citizens for the purpose of guaranteeing that government acts in ways that strengthen, rather than threaten, families. As such, we work together with Christians of all denominations, as well as with other Americans who agree with our mission and with our ideals. http://www.cc.org/about.cfm

Here is an excellent site by the People for the American Way http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=4307 that shows on right all similar organizations.

"CC has undergone several changes in leadership since the departure of Executive Director Ralph Reed in September of 1997. It has also suffered a severe decline in donations, from $26.5 million in 1996 to an estimated $3 million in 2000. As a result of this steep loss in revenue, the group has reorganized by cutting staff and dropping its minority outreach program, the Samaritan Project. Another recent stumbling block for the Christian Coalition has been a series of racial discrimination lawsuits by their employees."

My thing is having key members such as James Dobson in the news, like the Harriet Miers ordeal, or the celebration ball following the Nov 2004 elections that put these advocates and members of the CC squarely in politics using Christianity and supporters of it into the mix, crossing any separation of church/state you can think was remaining.

In the end FOR NOW I don't look at dominionists or reconstructionists as what many Americans call a Christian, far from the Values they tout for other to live by while being indicted of crimes themselves. When the leader of the organization, Pat Robertson calls fatwahs out for heads of state or is caught up in scathing scandals like Operation Blessing in 1994 that had much to deal with known dictators and enemies of the US this completely muddies things up and takes away any and all 'not for profit' dealings in my book, smuggling diamonds and avoiding to pay taxes, and was not prosecuted by the former or current administrations for these high crimes.

How the organization was ever considered non profit i'll never know

If you can help, I would appreciate it.

Hi 'Sentientone'.
Sorry, I can't help giggling when I say your new handle (as I know you elsewhere in cyberspace). But I'll collect myself to answer you properly!

Seperation of Church & State has been manipulated and misconstrued by all sides for years. My understanding of the Founding Fathers primary objective is a simple one> no establishment of a state-sponsored religion (such as the Church of England). That's all it has ever meant to me, so as long as the USA does not say the official state religion is "Festivus" , I feel ok with that. Maybe my interpretation is correct or way over-simplified, but I have a feeling you are directing your queries about the Non-Profit Organizaion (NPO) laws as well , so I will expound on that instead.

I am so glad you brought up the 501c3 NPO vs Lobby issue>
I have been trying to articulate this all around the net and blogs for a long time , and I find that the Abramoff Scandal has finally woken up a lot of bloggers to the indignation I have felt about 501c3 Non-Profit Organization (NPO) abuse ... it is my "pet peeve" besides the Iraq War. I do not feel that religious organizations (that are not churches) are the only guilty parties of 501c3 abuse, and they are not the worst (however they ARE manipulated by Rovians). The NPO abuse is insidiously done by war-mongers too, such as PNAC, etc.

American war mongers that fund themselves with NPO laws reminds me of Al Qaeda funding itself through Arab charitable organizations > they are no different. To me that goes beyond 501c3 abuse and into the realm of organized crime and breaking racketeering (RICO) laws.

So I feel we are dealing with two different issues when it comes to 501c3 abuse > that the religious organizations may be violating civil law if they are lobbying for particular candidates , but I feel that the war-mongering 501c3's are also violating criminal laws.

Whatever is going on with 501c3, it is a mess. I am no lawyer , but I am a former Cub Scout leader (which makes me more than qualified on the subject > ). What I learned back then was that the abuses within a 501c3 can happen this way > volunteers do all the work and get paid nothing & and the salaried president's of such organizations get 6 figures per year. This is the inherent problem and it is perfectly legal.

You are addressing what I feel are illegal abuses of 501c3 NPO laws , whether it is breaking civil or criminal laws or both, I'm not privy to that knowledge yet> but, like you, I do smell a BIG RAT. What is the legal difference between a Lobby and a 501c3 NPO, I don't know, but I will look into it.

It's time that Citizen Advisory Committees are formed on the federal level to research and advise Congress on entities and groups that are violating lobby and 501c3 laws. I don't want a McCarthyistic witch-hunt , but I do want all these organizations , whoever they may be, to follow each letter of the law.

Yank


PS Here is an interesting paragraph from a link of the IRS:

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/ar...d=96099,00.html

"....IRC section 501©(3) organizations are restricted in the amount of political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct. For a detailed discussion, see Political and Lobbying Activities. For further information regarding lobbying activities by charities, see the article Lobbying Issues; for more information regarding political activities of charities, see the FY-2002 CPE topic Election Year Issues."

Here's some more links and stuff from the IRS about Lobbying (it gets pretty deep into bureaucracy) :

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/ar...=120703,00.html

Political and Lobbying Activities

(Adapted from IRS Publication 1828, Tax Guide for Churches and Religious Organizations - February 2004)

Political activities and legislative activities are two different things and are subject to two different sets of rules. The rules depend on the type of tax-exempt organization, the type of activity (political or legislative) at issue, the scope or amount of the activity conducted, and the consequences of exceeding the given set of limitations.