After reading the many posts on POAC about how the US Government repeatedly and flagrantly violates both US law internally and international law externally to do whatever it wants to do, regardless (and Fuck You if you Oppose what we do. We'll do it anyway.), I think its finally time to once and forever see the US govt for what it is, and not what it says it is, or not what it pretends to be, or not what it portrays itself to be.

IMHO, the US Govt is a rogue, clear and simple. And a very powerful and dangerous one at that. They pretend to be concerned about freedom and Democracy in the world, and yet they spy and torture, and lie, and deceive, and wage wars based on fabrication, and so many other things that its almost incomprehensible that such an entity doing all these things would have the audacity, at the end of it all, to say it was doing these things for the cause of "good". Its time to pull off our blinders and see what the US has become. This is not just Bush or the Republicans (although they are currently in charge). This is the US of A. Don't forget that we are doing all these things willingly. We WANT to do them. If people did not want to do them, they would refuse.

I live in the US but I am disgusted beyond belief at what it does. And I am even more disgusted at those who let it happen.

This is not Nazi Germany in the 1930's, but there are similiarities. I can envision someone in Nazi Germany in the 1930's writing thoughts similiar to my own about their country and what it was doing. Its time to wake up and realize where we are heading. The more I read lately, the more alarmed I am becoming at what I see. It is as if we are sliding faster and faster down a slippery slope toward fascism (and worse), and people are just letting it happen without any real outcry. I am very alarmed. We should all be alarmed and realize what is happening here.

We are witnessing the transformation of the US into something it never has been before, and it scares the hell out of me. Unless it is stopped, you may not recognize the US before too long. I'm not an enemy of the US. I am a Patriot. I really believe this is the way Nazi Germany became what it became.

Im just waiting for a leader to stand beside.

I am too brash and not wise enough to such on my own.

Where is a leader we can all stand beside?

A poem by Pastor Martin Niemoller, Berlin, 1939.
Niemoller was a pastor in the German Confessing Church
who spent eight and one-half years in a Nazi concentration camp.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out--because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out--because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out--because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

AFW, I think you're right.

While I wholly agree that the US government is currently a dangerous rogue entity, I grow tired of reading comments like this:

(color emphasis added for clarification)

The American people as a whole have not let anything happen, and the process of correcting the corrupt path of the current adminstration has begun. Our political process may not move sufficiently fast for you, AFW, but there is a process, and it does appear to be working. Despite what appear to be efforts on the part of the Bush administration to co-opt the media, the majority of Americans seem to have caught wind of the questionable Bush practices and have voiced/are voicing opposition to those actions. Many (most?) analysts seem to have little doubt that the displeasure of the American people will be reflected in the upcoming elections. The questionable practices of the Bush administration and the Neo-Cons are being investigated according to the laws of this country; those against whom there is sufficient evidence of wrong-doing according to US law have been indicted; and as the investigations continue, it seems likely that more indictments are to come. The system, to all appearances, is working. Were it to move faster, were action to be taken without adhering to accepted laws, then those doing so would be as guilty of subverting the legal rights of American citizens as we fear are the Neo-Cons.

What do you want, AFW? What do you think needs to happen that is not happening? Little of the "proof" of Bush's wrong-doing that is currently visible to the public is without question, making it important that those with the power to investigate and prosecute this man and his cronies are thorough in their analysis of the situation and certain of their evidence. To act rashly, to move without a solid case does not stop Bush, it enables him. Under the circumstances, what do you think should be happening that is not?

You seem to think that because the Democrats are not standing on thier chairs and screaming that they are doing nothing to curb the Bush/Neo-Con agenda. It is my hope that the elected Democrats behave as statesmen, that they do not act until they have proof on which to base solid charges, and that they continue to publicly state their opposition to the pResident's policies, question his actions, and oppose him where they can. I see the majoirty of them doing just that. What do you want them to do that they are not?

I have tremendous concern over the possibility of the appointment of Samuel Alito to the SOCUS, as I fear his ratification will make it harder for the American people to stop the No-Con push toward a police state. I've been listening to the hearings and have been very impressed with the direct questions being asked of Alito; pleased that words are not being parsed by the Dems, but that they are stating their concerns bluntly, and outlining why these concerns are of issue so that all listening can better understand the opposition to Alito's appointment. This is how the process works, and from where I sit, it seems to be functioning well.



No we aren't, we are seeing an attempt to co-opt the American ideal, possibly even a subtle attempt at Coup D'etat, and we are witnessing how that process is stopped/thwarted/curbed.

I submit that you demonstrate little faith in the processes established by more than 200 years of Democracy, AFW. You do not seem to believe that Democracy is going to work. Personally, I am willing to watch the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the American systems of Governance and Jurisprudence do what they were designed to do; to put my faith in the strength of these processes and allow them to be tested, to see if they are up to the challenges modern day issues pose them. There is a great deal at stake, yes, but were we to abandon American ideals in favor of forcing what we want, however well meaning, then we cannot be said to be following a just course, and would, in fact, become those we claim to oppose.

The American ideal is being tested, again, I might add. I think it's up to the challenge. It is sad that you do not.

"you demonstrate little faith in the processes established by more than 200 years of Democracy"........

AFW is not alone in this. I for one have very little faith in the "processes established by more than 200 years of Democracy".

Quite amazing.

on edit, wait a fuggin minute.....

"200 years of Democracy" ???

Are U serious ?

Where did THAT happen ?? Come on, fill us in.

Thank you VT. I couldn't agree more!

Yes, the current leadership of america has issues.
No, the sytem, (for the most part) does not!

It is as we speak, in the process of correcting it's self
in exactly the ways the original framers had intended!

However, In AFW defense, it's his dissasisfaction with the US Government,
along with millions who feel like him that is the engine for correction and change!
Again, just as the original framers had intended!


In reply to AFW's emotional and well deserved rant,
I would ask him to think back just one year ago.
Recall as best one can what the mood was then!
At that time Bush was still bullet proof, or had we forgotten?

Today his 9/11 body armor is so shot full of holes as to be completely worthless to the man!
This was not the case a year ago!

Today their stands the very real possibility that the pResident might even be impeached!!!!
I didn't say it will happen, I said it could!
This time last year it wasn't even a possibility! Now that's a HUGE shift in mood!

For christs sake, even the John Burch Society wants Bush impeached!!!!



The system is working as it was designed.
It was also designed to be a slow process!

Patience and persistance my friends, and all will be fine!
DO NOT fall for the Conservative Spin that says we're doomed!

"The system is working as it was designed."

Sky, it wasn't designed for me and you. It was designed for the wealthy.

"It was also designed to be a slow process!"

Slow is good in some things Sky. 200 years is long enough. Time for a change.

"Patience and persistance my friends, and all will be fine!
DO NOT fall for the Conservative Spin that says we're doomed!"

We're not doomed, we're screwed!

Still....Sky, I respect your opinion, you know that. I guess I'm a bit more a radical than some. I still respect (most) all opinions.

The system as it was brainstormed and refined over 200 years ago is the finest system available, worldwide. But it's not perfect and it wasn't left in the oven long enough or was taken out too soon. Something went wrong 200+ years ago. Some thing 4 sho !

I'm sorry Jay, but I can't agree with you!
Was it designed by the elite? Yes.
Were these elite disconnected from the average citizen?
If they were I doubt this country would still exist
as they would have failed in their attempt!

Yes, the country and it's syetem is working.
If you doubt me, stick around and see for youself.
Though, by the time you should notice, you'll likely be all wrapped up in the next emotional political crisis!

Time tells all, if yer able to see it!

thx Sky, I can dig what you're sayin'.

As for stickin' around, as you may recall, I left (!!) CONUS a long while ago.

That may be why I'm so radical in my outlook. I dunno. I sure as hell hope you're right.

Peace Bro !

Power to the People !

And how would you propose effecting that change? Offer a suggestion.



Perhaps there is no hope for you because you seem unable to do anything but complain. With nothing constructive to offer I would have to agree; you're screwed. I feel no such fear.

Tell me Jayhawk; why are you giving up so easily? We are no worse off now than we were during the Depression, the MacCarthy years, or the Nixon years. Some people publicly cheered the death of JFK and felt he should have been tried for treason. Ben Franklin wrote of a level of dissatisfaction with government among the American people during his time that is no less problematic than what we now face. Every president has been accused of incompetence and corruption by those who did not vote for him or share his ideology, yet here we are, America still. The process for correcting what did not serve us as a people worked, and we, as a nation, survived.



The Founders were not clairvoyants; the drafting of a Constitution that could address the changing needs of a people over hundreds of years is simply not possible. I am curious, though; since you find the original document so faulty, what would you have done to make it better?

While we can all agree that the original Constitution is not without holes, we are fortunate that the ability to modify our Nation's laws was built in to its governance. You can believe me that participating in that process is far more effective than is complaining and waiting for someone else to fix what you find wrong.

"A slave is one who waits for someone else to free him" - Rosellen Brown

I dont trust the governmental process anymore. Its far too sectionalized to really serve any true national effort. You say the process is working, but I wonder if people said that when they changed the laws after the civil war to strengthen a hold that is ever growing bigger.

Please show me this grib is letting up and I am not talking about Bushco, I am talking about the whole damn show. All of them they wish only greed and the right to control their own little "herds".

Ok, so what do you propose? What should be done about what you see as problems in this country? If you have no faith in the system, thus, you choose not to work within it, what do you suggest actually doing? What is your alternative idea?

Well, one thing I would do is revert alot of the power back to the hands of the States and let them deside what is good or not for their own state and leave the federal government just grande projects, examples..mail, emergency issues, nationwide transpertation, national research projects, etc..

Things like Education, civil laws, commerce, civil services, social work, healthcare, etc.. should be handled on the state level.

Those two changes, would not change much of the structure, just who controls what and how is in power of what.

Something like that would win my trust back some.

States rights,
in other words you support such things as slavery?
You do realize that states rights is exactly why we had a civil war yes?


Federal control = schools in Alabama would have the same level of excellence as schools in Vermont!

Federal control = Abortion is legal in every state.

I am a socialist! I actually want MORE government!




Just a couple of examples.




next?

Ok, now Sky, you are startin g to piss me off.



How in the hell did my statement come to you saying I promote slavery? What the hell even gave you the notion that I would even support slavery?

All you see if Democrat/Republican, Liberal/Conservative. Do you not understand there are people who stand beside you who dont give a rats ass about what you two piss at each other?

Talk about the subject at hand and not how you can make the previous poster feel like shit.



What makes you have the right to tell people in Alabama how to teach their children? If they want to have dumb children by all means let them.

Do you want to same as them? Aboslute control across the board, so what YOU feel is right should be pressed upon everyone else? Gee I wonder who you sound like.

What gives the people in the State house in Alabama the right to tell the people in any county in Alabama how to teach their children?

What gives ANYBODY the right?


You don't see it do you?
You aren't a liberal at all are you?



States rights and slavery.
Or shall we say the civil rights issue for modern times?
If you don't understand that, yer missing quite a lot!

Google Gov George Wallace.

Jesus, Sky, if you'd put your god-damned whacking stick away for a few moments this might become a productive conversation! Let someone else fully express an idea now and then!

And MM, you are one big "hot button", which makes talking to you without offending you nearly impossible. Consider reducing the caffeine intake and don't be so damned quick to get defensive!

And me, I'll just sit over here and continue to be self righteous, acting as though I have some right or level of wisdom that allows me to bark at the boys from time to time...

MM, I am sure you are under no illusions that there will be many who object to the idea of greater local control, but that's not the point. The point is that you do have an idea of how to improve conditions in this country. Working toward implementating that idea is far more constructive than is sitting back and complaining about things with which you don't agree.

So let me ask; what are you doing to implement your idea? If the answer were "nothing" then you would be the apathetic "others" so often complained about by participants on this forum. If you are working toward implementation of an idea to improve your country then you are participating in "the process" in some way, shape or form.

Sorry, I'll stop whacking!


















For now!

I agree that our system is again being tested and I hope it survives, but I don't think the threat has ever been this great before. There is absolutely no balance of power, no checks and balances, and even our ability effect change with our votes is questionable. We're at a point now where events are happening rapidly and the vestiges of those mechanisms designed to protect and correct our system are being activated. I think we'll know soon enough how this will play out. The real powers here don't really care about a few Abramhoffs and DeLays going down, they've just been useful tools. Bush himself may be just a useful stooge. We've ceded great power to this executive branch and the corporations that own it, and the real agenda of PNAC is much more ominous than the illegality and corruption that is belatedly coming to light. I think that if the secrets of what they've done to gain power should ever come to light, we'll realize just what they will do to keep it.

Fair enough. Far be it for me to suggest that all whacking should end!

Anybody remember the Green Party? I know, I know, not a snowball's chance, too left, too feminist, too, too, too. But...do you remember "Think globally, act locally"? Jeebus isn't going to descend in a chariot of fire and clouds and save us all, it just ain't gonna happen in one fell swoop. That's part of our problem, we believe somebody (else) is gonna throw the Hail Mary pass and win the BIG GAME for us. Get involved in your community, volunteer, speak out at city council and school board meetings, hand out flyers and work phone trees. Talk to your neighbors. Build little islands of sanity and then push the borders outward 'til the edges of all the little islands overlap. It'll give you something to do while you wait for the BIG PLAY...if the guidon falls, pick it up. Even if you're just the drummer boy. Especially if you're the drummer boy. Be your own leader until a better one comes along. You'll be surprised at how resourceful and resolute you are.

Well, seems WILL is firmly placed us back ON SUBJECT!


Thank you Will, but did you have something you wanted to add to this?

I could'nt agree more. The similarities that are apparent today between 1930's Germany, and the USA in 2006 are indeed a cause for great concern. My last post touched on a similar theme. We must protest vigouresly lest history repeat itself. After world war two the cry was "never again" but as they say, never say never.

Will

Those who choose to ignore the past
are doomed to repeate it!



I will say it again, (no whacking)
The sytem is working. This is not 1930 Germany.
There are things of great concern, we doi need to be vigilent and active,
but though I am very sad for all that has been lost, including thousands of lives,
I feel quite confident the system that allows for it, will correct it's self.

I fear that we are but one major "incident" from complete and total fascism. The horrors of the Katrina aftermath convinced me (as if I had any doubt). Do you realy believe that anyone would be safe? Do you realy believe that they would exercise any kind of restraint? Do you realy believe that they even know why they should restrain themselves? They are monsters to have brought us to where we now are. They will not change. They will not police themselves. The Leadership that you hope will save us is terrified of them. And for good cause. No one wants to be the next person to end up at Gitmo. And who will stop them, especially after another major attack? The Courts? Bwahahahaha... Scalito will protect us! Not.

I think too many people think in the moment and forget to balance things with historic reality.

This kind of crap is most certainly not a new phenom.
It's happened before, and it will happen again!

And in the mean time, if you are certain the doom is upon us,
you better pack and split while you can! We don't need you anyway!
I do not want people around who constantly tell me how bad things are or what I can't do!
I want people who will do what they can, even if they are just one person.
The rest of us will stick it out and be here when the sun comes back out again!


Nope, all you doom and gloomers who are so sure the US is about to split apart at the seams,
leave now! We do not need you.

Of course it has happened before, and it is happening here, now. If you were picked up and sent to some detention center somewhere, who would complain? Who would they complain to? Haven't you heard about all the homeowners they rounded up in New Orleans? No courts to arraign them in, so they just held them at the bus station.

This is only what they have done already. Doom and gloom maybe, for the folks caught up in that part of this nightmare, but surely you are not saying that their problems would vanish if their outlook was rosier.

I will not leave yet. I respect your liberty much to abandon it so easily. Besides, there is no where to go. The issues are global. We (our Supreme Court) will soon be deciding if detainees are people, or if they are some other species that are not even entitled to the rights of animals. But if only their outlook was rosier...

I'm going to limit my reply for now to VT.

You say the process of correcting the corrupt path of the current administration has begun. This “corrupt path” involves so many areas, including Domestic Spying, The use of Torture, The Iraq War, “The WMD lie”, and corruption on a massive scale and at many levels. While I would agree that the “corrupt path” has been noticed by the American people, I am not at all convinced that a process of correction has begun. Instead what I see happening is that the US Govt may pretend to have addressed the issue, but in reality it goes on but much more in secret, so the American people are not aware of it. That is my perception.

You say the questionable practices of the Bush Administration and the Neo-Cons are being investigated. Who is investigating them? How serious are they about investigating them? If they find wrong-doing, how hard will they push for change (or how much will “politics” prevent them from doing so)? How hard will the Administration and Pentagon resist those calls for change? What will continue in secrecy even after the administration and Pentagon has pledged to have made change(s)? I think you are 100% incorrect in your implication that all of the wrong-doing of this administration will EVER be properly investigated by those with the power to do something about it and that the appropriate changes will be made to stop the abuses and to prevent them from ever happening again.

I pledged I would mute my criticism of the Democrats here, and so I will. But you know from my previous posts how I feel about the majority of them, and so you know how strongly I disagree with your statements and implications that they are doing everything they can do about BushCo.

You say that I do not believe that Democracy is going to work, and there you are correct. I do not believe Democracy in this country is working Now. It may correct itself in the future, it may stay the same, or it may get worse. But I certainly do not share your opinion that we have nothing to worry about, and to just have “Faith” in the system and everything will work out fine. I don’t share that view at all and never will.

No one is saying that to solve all of the problems that are clear and apparent one should just put on some rose colored glasses, have a coke and sit back and relax. I rather believe that what many of us think is that you can't change things by just constantly listing all of the wrong, the negative, the injustice...No one is telling you to stop. Please, inform me. If you find something out that you don't think we know, post about it. Then you have done something POSITIVE to effect change. The ones here who are encouraging us to not just get stuck on the "poor me" shit are trying to promote ACTION. They want us to DO SOMETHING. The answer that would be ideal would be to somehow magically erase say, perhaps the last 6 or 7 years, but that's not reality. Reality is that we are here today and we know what a lot of the problems are. Make some changes.

You ask who is doing something about these injustices, well I answer...YOU CAN. You can be the one to investigate...or you can be the one to call your senator to urge them to investigate, or call your local paper and urge them...You don't have to be a part of the government's endless buracracy to stand up and take some action about things you don't like.

I hate the condition of the world today. It makes me cry, literally hurts me until I cry to think about the problems. But I also wake up EVERY SINGLE DAY with the thought of "what can I do today?" Not meaning, should I clean my car...but should I keep working at it...this change thing...And I do. So far everyday, I have woken to want to keep going.

There is no miracle that is going to happen. Superman isn't going to fly on the scene, clean out D.C. and hand us back some sanitized, ideal government that is ready for us.

I am only beginning to gain my courage. But I get a little more each day and each day I am a little less afraid and a little more in control. You can be too. Give it a try.

No one is denying the evil, but they are advocating that we get off our asses and do something about it.

I might add that it would be fine to list all the negative,
just as long as you do not in the process, forget the posative!


When you refer to "the government." exactly who are you refering too?
If, when you say "the Government" you mean the administration,
you get no argument from me!

Other wise, we might not agree who "the Government" is!



Again, all you negative types, I challenge you all to see it out for a while.
I predict with all confidence that by the end of this next summer,
certainly by the end of this year, you will see things that today you would not think possible,
just as has happened this past year!
And I predict even while you are seeing these things with your own eyes,
you will STILL insist the USA is a doomed, corrupt system devoid of humanity and empathy,
Just as you have been doing now!

Mark my words, 1-11-06

Telling me all about what is bad really has no value if you forget what is good!



Besides, if you're so convinced the country is falling inescapably into fascism,
why stay?
If you are really so convinced, the sooner you get out the easier it will be for you!
If you are so sure of the correctness of this view, why wait? For what?

And if in fact you really aren't all that convinced, but instead you just need to vent your frustration,
That's fine.
But while you do this venting,
how about letting me know what you intend to do to correct the situation!

Because quite frankly, the whining really does get tiresome!
(no, stating an issue is not whining! Saying it 16 times without possibility of resolution is!)


VT,
Sorry if I whacked that one a bit too hard,
but I really am tired of the Whining!

There can certainly be no arguement that Bush and the Neo-Cons are hiding their corrupt activities to the best of their ability, and/or attempting to subvert legal interpretation to make their questionable acts legal, or at least make them seem legal. It has ever been thus with those who act outside of the law and/or accepted ethics, however. Such activities are never conducted in the light of day.

The Nixon scandal followed the same pattern as that being followed by the Bush administration; misrepresentation of a war and its underlying premise; illegal phone taps; attempts, through illegal action, to influence the outcome of an election; and while it seems the Bush administration may have advanced these corrupt practices further than Nixon was able (with both administrations relying on some of the same people who clearly learned to be more devious after the exposure of the Nixon scandal), the fact remains that the Bush corruption is being brought into the open and people are beginning to take note.



Come on, AFW; the Abramoff investigation, the Delay investigation, the Cunningham investigation, investigations into election fraud being spurred by the GAO, investigations into pre-war intelligence, investigations beginning into Bush spying on American citizens; all of these are the necessary first steps to bringing the Bush/Neo-Con corruption to light and prosecuting.



You're overstating my assertions, AFW. I neither implied nor stated that 100% of the bad guys were likely to be caught and prosecuted. Sadly, but obviously it is unlikely that most of those responsible for directing the current corrupt practices will ever be identified, let alone prosecuted, and some of those who will be prosecuted will be excused of their crimes by a significant portion of Americans(Ollie North ring any bells?). This does not mean we stop trying, however, and it is vitally important to remember that we only need to uncover the corruption in order to stop its current incarnation. We don't need 100% of those conspiring against America to be prosecuted if the first goal is to maintain the American ideal and preserve our representative Democracy.

Our Democracy is under attack. It has been since the day it was born and it will be in perpetuity. As such the founders built a framework for protecting our system of governance to ensure, to the best of their ability and ours, that we could preserve that Democracy. We protect that system of representative Democracy by employing it.



I disagree with your assertions, but I understand your position.



If you do not believe that Democracy will work then I submit that it is you against whom we need to be on guard as much as against the Neo-Cons. I am not ready to throw in the towel on this grand American project, and you will find few Americans who are.

As you well know, nowhere have I implied that we have nothing to worry about and that we need to "just have faith in the system". Believing in Representative Democracy is an active process that means more than bitching about what I find wrong while offering no constructive ideas on how those wrongs might be corrected. It means being active in the process, being at least somewhat knowledgeable about the issues, voting, communicating with my elected officials, and holding them accountable. Having faith in the system means using and participating in the system. Our system of governance is not for those waiting for someone else to come along and right what they see as wrong. Representative Democracy is a we thing, AFW, not for the faint of heart, the weak of spirit, and the lazy of mind.

Perhaps this is why you just don't get it.

No apologies necessary. I think you should have swung harder...

I think the tribal system had it right. I am begining to take a strong look at that form of governce and it is suprisingly efficent.

VT, I believe more then anything our school system is the most corrupt and mismanaged. This is one of the MANY reasons I am becoming a School teacher. So I am devoting my whole life to something., something I can help grow and expand, something to watch bloom and flurish.

What are you doing?

Last year I worked on the staff of two local political campaigns, this year I will be working on just one; I am a Precinct Committee Officer in my legislative district and active in both the county and state Democratic party; I am a registered county election observer; I recently retired from 18 years in the field of sustainable agriculture with a focus on public education to devote full time to being, with my dog, Joe, and my Hubby, a Search and Rescue Volunteer.

And I occasionally shoot my mouth off on political fora...

I hope once I am finished with school and have a lock on a good teaching job, I hope to go into my local politics. Ether working for a worthy canidate in my area or being that canidate myself.