This question is pretending, of course, that GOP did not cheat in Ohio in 2004

Im not sure, Republicans could have turned it around that Keary was a conspirist and we know main stream will not let a paranoid freak into office that would misuse his office for personal ghosts to chase....wait a minute.

MM, my sentiments exactly. No one would have believed him. Sadly.

I'm not so sure that Kerry could answer a simple straight forward question
with a simply straight forward reply! (the man could never simply say "yes" or "no")

In which case, I don't know if it would have affected his loss.

IMHO, America would not care about PNAC even if it had been "revealed" to them, and if Kerry had made it an issue during the campaign it would actually have HURT his chances for winning, not helped them.

Don't be confused. Just because this is important to you and to me does NOT mean its important to main-stream America.

That's weird, because UK Guardian talks about PNAC all the time to Brits... how come so much more interest over there? Is it because Brits simply enjoy free press OR are the Brits demanding more info about the PNAC?

I've been more open with 2 strangers the past few days about PNAC when the subject comes up by them first (due to my signs or whatever) , and they are more receptive to listening to me tell them about it before I even give them my Google PNAC "business card"... good vibes lately! More and more Americans are realizing something is definitely afoot.

You make the bold assumption that anybody was actually listening to Kerry, rather than just voting against bush.

Kerry made it difficult for anybody to listen to Kerry.

(snagged from another thread)

HA! That really made me laugh out loud. And sadly, while I read it, I could even hear Kerry's voice.

He's like Svengali..."Listen to my voice, you are getting sleepy..."

You have hit the nail on the head. The US news media has disavowed any knowledge of PNAC. In fact, it has only been very recently that the term neo-con has been allowed in any US news media. the Neo-con movement has been a myth in the US until very recently. I think the Iraq War finally made it impossible for the mainsteam news media to deny their existence any longer. Now, it is finally OK to say the word neo-con in the US without being branded as a nutcase conspiracy theorist.

When I first started getting my news from the internet about 4 years ago, I discovered that foriegn media such as the UK Guardian, Sydney Morning Herald, ect. were much more honest and forthcoming with information than the US news media. That realization is what made me first start to question what the hell is going on in my country.

In a nut-shell:

The American People are Idiots who believe whatever their government and the MSM tells them.

Thier government, led by the Bush Administration, tells blatant lies and spreads pro-US propoganda.

The MSM is interested in pleasing the government and being incontroversial and making money than in reporting the truth, especially if reporting that truth is in any way political in nature. That is why you will never get political truth from the US MSM.

And Kerry? Clueless. The only reason Kerry got as far as he did was because he was Bush's opponent. They were not voting FOR Kerry. They were voting AGAINST Bush.

Any questions?

Apparently , Sydney Morning Herald is much more forthcoming about USA period > check out this entry in Wikipedia about Rex84 and Ollie North's marshall law plan he instigated back during Iran-Contra scandal :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex84

one of the sources is Sydney Morning Herald!


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/27/1027497418339.html

THe mass of Americans are simply retarded sheep (no offence meant to anybody here). So, when the assholes on Fox News say that Kerry is a frenchman, they believe him.

The USA is too full of stupid hillbilly's to allow any politician to try to hit them from the "intelligent" angle.

Careful Scorp, you're being manipulated!

All that you just said is right wing BS spin!
Most Americans are just like you and me,
they just have different political views.

Even the most apathetic among us has an opinion!



Don't be so quick to allow the Rethug spin masters to let you think we don't care
or that we aren't paying attention,
or that we won't do anything.

Because they're wrong!

He didn't repeat right-wing spin, Sky. He honestly told you what he sees, which is also what I see. If that's a little bit too negative for you, I guess I'll just put back on my rose-colored glasses, pop a "chill pill" and wait for the glorious things to come as the wise and intelligent American people make the "right choice" and the Democratic party retakes its rightful throne as the ruling party of American politics.

AFW, it's about perception.

The Repugs have known about and successfully used perception for the better part of 3 decades now.

When the Repugs attacked McCain, one of their own, the accusations were certainly untrue, however, the perception persisted and was effective. The attack on McCain accomplished it's goal even though the accusations were all false!

The Swiftboaters attacked Kerry in exactly the same way! They successfully attacked Kerry's war record and his patriotism. Many Americans still believe these myths. The Republican inspired perception remains!

Today the Repugs are in a world of hurt! Thanks to events of the past year including Abramoff, Republicans are viewed are both corrupt and innept! Clearly I can live with this perception, but make no mistake, it IS perception! Even your most apathetic "sheeple" has an opinion and these opinions are based on NOTHING MORE THAN THE PERCEPTIONS!

Your "observations" are also your perceptions. And as such, you have a choice!

Your world is exactly, nothing more or less than exactly how you perceive it to be!
You know about posative reinforcement yes? Then you also know about negative reinforcement!

If you continue to tell yourself that you can't win, odds are extreamly unlikely that you ever will. You will have "spin" yourself right out of the game! Your perceptions that most people are sheep and don't care not only is mistaken, it's also self defeating and defeating the issue generally! It also helps create the perception the Repugs can and will easely spin to meet their desires, just as they have for 3 decades.

The fact that some of us believe these negative things, plays right into the Repug Respin attempts.

If you believe there can't be an impeachment,
if you believe the Repugs are too powerful to defeat,
if you believe our country is doomed, then with all of these things and more you help create an impression, a spin that the Repugs absolutely thank you for!


You have a choice.
Are you going to imagine this shit is gonna end and there by help make it happen?
Or are you gonna believe in the sheeple shit and figure what the hell?

In other words, as has been asked so many times in recient days,

If you believe these things to be truth, what are you going to do to correct the situation?
Or are you happiest simply having something to whine about?


Yes, Scorp has his right to his Observation and opinion.
And I have the right to tell him to get his head out and cheer up!
Might as well. Not gonna get much done with yer head up there!


In other words, if you do not believe in us, get the hell out!
If you cannot be a posative influence then you are even more damaging than any number of "sheeple".

Why? Because at least a sheep hasn't already decided they can't win!
A sheeple represents latent possibility.



If you people can't understand these basic psyche class lessons,
well, maybe you should stay away from politics?

Nice! America is full of mostly people with a herdable mentality. How do you think its so easy for them to control America? Because we are all smart? Please.


Alot of people here can not handle the dark side of humans. Better tighten that kinda talk up AFW, most here believe in the very "Christian" ideal of innate goodness, but dont let them know that. They will claim its something else all together and exist in total denial about the level of impact religion has played in shaping who we are, even on a subconcious level.


[edit]




Wait, you telling me you believe all that shit they taught you in school that came from a coke head? Hahahaha. Wait, wait...do you believe what American schools taught you about history too?

as I have said before,
Time will prove which one of us is correct!



In the mean time, what shall we do?

Wow, the shit is really beginning to stink around here

Why? Because we are disagreeing? Damn, you will work out great in a "true" Democracy. Damn all this difference in opinion must go!



I have no hard will towards anyone here. Not even Sky. No matter what is said, I learn more from it then not. Hell no one here can say I havent changed from my first post here.

I personally have no problem with people who dissagree with me. It's how I grow and shape myself. I do, however, feel that this (this post and the Jesus being proven in court post) have both turned into a bullshit stream where you have decided to spew a lot of ideas you know we (the progressives) of this board completely dissagree with, but when we dissagree, you just try to use semantical arguments to attack what we have said without really doing any actual arguing of opposing facts or ideas. It has gotten beyond ridiculous and I personally am ashamed that I keep falling for your crap and continue to reply to you. My main hope is that I have not completely lowered myself to your level and I will still retain some of the respect I have gained here after I have finally finished this INNANE "debate" with you.

And Sky wins the big teddy bear!

AFW, you're acting the fool. This entire site, with the exception of your oft repeated whimperings, is about taking action to correct what we see going wrong in our government. You keep suggesting "rose-colored glasses" as the only alternative to whining! Jesus, even the republicans have more to offer than do you!

You and everyone else who frequents this site are most certainly entitled to your opinions, and are as free to express them as others are to tell you what they think of your opinions. Free speech is a wonderful thing, but it comes with a barb.

My suspicion is that Sky has it right, AFW; you like complaining, but lack the courage to do more than that.

So since I disagree with you, I must be a right wingerer now?

Damn I am the disrespectful one? Am I calling people names? Am I making claims and refusing to offer proof?

VT- AFW was being very sarcasitic about the glasses and saying sky is the one doing nothing. Not the other way around.

Beyond our various little individual things we do, what else do we do? He is right, as a group we do nothing and we expect SOMETHING to happen. Yet nothing will as long as we act like individuals and not as a group.

Yes we disagree on simple bullshit that I honestly could give a two shits about. But on the important stuff, Like dealing with Republicans and fighting for our freedom to even disagree.

We ALL here know that they are already in control. They will not give up control, no matter what courts in your favor may say or, as it has been proven, what our votes say. They will remain in control unless something acts on them. Plain and simple. We can not act as individuals pating each other on the back when we do something small. We need to stand up as a group and demand something LARGE.

That denial thing you guys keep talking about.....check out a mirror sometime and look deep inside your soul and ask yourself "Is this really happening?"

Ummm, meanwhile , our common enemy is really the PNAC thugs (whether all Americans realize it or not ) >>>sooo , how do we "OUT" 'em to the ones who don't know (since our elected representatives aren't going to "out" the PNAC to their constituents?)

Do you actually know how to read, MM, and assuming that you do, may I suggest you actually try doing it? More to the point, consider, just for the hell of it, actually responding to what is written as opposed to twisting the comments into something about which you can whine.

And you might consider thinking before typing. To all indications it will be a new experience for you.



Well thank you for that brilliant bit of insight, MM. Where would I be without you?



Ok, while this statement is weird beyond describing, what is it you would have people do, MM? Make an actual statement of action. Beyond the various "little things" that participants here do, like, oh, you know, working for political parties, working on campaigns, widely disseminating information and staying abreast of the issues, what would you have us do as a group; particularly in light of your stunning revelation that the above described activities are all such individual actions and are apparently wholly insufficient.



I for one, am sick to death of listening to you call the people we are trying to reach "herdable" and denigrating the general intellect of the citizenry, MM. I am getting rather pissed off at you, AFW and a few others who spend the majority of your time here repeating that the current political system is broken beyond repair while offering little if any practical suggestion on how it might be fixed. You don't like the candidates, you don't like the democrats, you don't think anyone is doing a good job, but you can offer nothing better.

Some of us actually are working toward improvement of the American political system while some of you appear to do little more than find fault with everyone but yourselves. So no, we appear to disagree on more than the little shit; we disagree on what constitutes productive activity. Further, we disagree on the problem, because it is as much the shitty attitudes of people like you, AFW and Radical Liberal, as it is the apathy of "the people".

On any given day at any given time there are more guests reading this forum than there are members. If these are people looking for information then they've come to the right place thanks to TJ (and Cathrine), who scours the news sites and blogs for information to keep us informed and aware of the direction in which events are moving. Some guests, too, come looking for kindred spirits and something about which to feel positively. You, who plaster this forum with incoherent, inarticulate babble, provide little information, and nothing productive, but spend your time bitching and moaning about how nothing is good, and everyone else is doing too little too late. You and people like you are a part of the problem, and it is my opinion that you reduce the value of this site.

And I will repeat, no one is suggesting that you have no right to repeat the innane babble to which you are prone. I have neither the right nor the authority to censor anything anyone says, and more-over I haven't the desire. I do have as much right to disagree with you and tell you so, however, as you have to disagree with me. Under these circumstances I might ask that you put on your big-boy underpants and stop crying whenever someone puts you in your place.

Vt, You are the one who didnt read. Left qouted a rule towards me and highlighted, made bold, and put it in italic the Right Winger part. So what do you think she ment by it? Please explain another idea as to what she ment by that.

Is the only way for you to communicate to people is to talk down to them? Maybe if you stoped to think about what we are really talking about, then maybe you chould respond to it.

We are complaining about the herd and want to change it and yes we have no idea how to change centuries of brain washing. Do you have idea, cause you kep saying we dont, but do you? Are you saying they are not brainwashed?

Also, I have offered differnt examples on how to change things, but you disagree with them all or you just havent read them. I am sure once you read them, you will disagree with them too.

Next time, try reading EVERYTHING in a thread, before you look far more stupid then you really are. I have nothing against you VT and I think you are far wiser and more intelligent person then I am. Please do not make assumptions upon something.

Also, if you think I offer nothing to this site or anyone else who thinks it for that matter. I will leave. I do not like to tender where I am not wanted.

It is impossible to reason with anyone who makes the decision to be unreasonable.
It is impossible to educate anyone who makes the decision to not learn.

VT, I agree with everything you said, and might even add to it, again!
But it's become uncomfortably clear to me that in this case, it won't do much good.

Some how we have to accept our limitations, and as progressives, we will have those who don't have much to help with. We have to accept the bad with the good and if nothing else, these people and the frustrations they bring with them help to keep us on our toes!

Though I admit, sometimes my toes could use a rest.



By the way. I know exactly what Lefty was after when she highlighted the winger part.

I will say this again MM, only this time know that it is intended specifically for you.
I have never had to deal with a more blatantly defensive person than what I see in your text.
Now, I typed that statement with careful consideration!
Note that I said, "your text". This means that I have never met you.
It means that I recognise all I know of you is what I see in your text.

I'm gonna offer you one small bit of advice.
Back away from it for 2 weeks. Get your feet back under you.
I say these things because some of your statements are damn close to being rude to the point I might not forgive you.

Rude, and not very smart!





Also, when Zooks refered to you as "showing your colors" he was in fact, talking to you,
Not me!


Take it to heart! Zooks is one smart man!






All this effort and unfortunately I don't think you will hear a single word!



I have reread all this before posting and I feel compelled to add just this...

MM, I want to make sure you understand that in no way am I trying to say you are a bad person.
I am saying specificially that I don't agree with some of your thoughts, ideas and some of the things you say.
And that is all I'm saying.
This is NOT a judgment of you, your personality, intelligence or other personal traits.
I also don't dislike you personally.
I can't dislike you because I don't know you!

VT,

Bravo!! You said that far better than my feeble attempt. Thank you.

And I realize that this whole thread, and several others, have completely been hijacked by this "debate", so I will keep my reply to MasterMind as short as I possibly can. (which may be hard, because I admit I am very verbose )

MasterMind,

The reason I quoted the forum rules piece was because, while you chose to be oblivious and/or actually believe you share the same ideals of the people of this board, I, for one, must vehemently disagree that you do. From the beginning of my time here, I have heard numerous attempts by you to explain away many sexist remarks you have made and then were called out on. Not only that, I have also heard you make statements against abortion and civil rights, to name two other VERY specific things that most progressives actually do believe in. THEREFORE, I quoted the passage of the forum rules to remind you that this is a place to find comfort with others of a like-minded stance, to share ideas, goals, to garner support when we are feeling downtrodden and tired in our fight to make the world a better place. And, since you have some misunderstanding of what personal action is, one person is how a revolution starts. I will refrain from using complicated example of this or even metaphores, because that seems to be where you become the most lost in what I am trying to say.

At some point, when one realizes that they are speaking to someone who is on a different level of understanding, the only thing to do is to talk down. But I don't think it matters at this point. You read here what you want and then twist it to your fancy to insight arguments. Fine, go for it, but from this point on I shall use all of my personal restraint to keep from engaging you further. You go from one post of completely belittling someone to another where you are blatantly kissing their ass. While we (of this forum) may forge some friendships in the process of sharing our information and ideas, this is not an on-line friend service. There is no need to suck up, divide, create groups, or whatever it is that you are attempting to do when you call on remarks others of us have made when responding to someone else's posts or ideas. You have gone far beyond pissing me off. In fact, I have written you off. As far as I am concerned, you are worst than the "herd" you hate so much, because at least they are still in the dark and can learn, while you, standing blinded by the light, have completely lost all touch with what I call reason.

And as far as your last little comment about leaving if no one likes you, THAT my friend, is why you have been asked to put on the big-boy pants. Adults don't take their toys and go home, just because everyone doesn't like them. If you really wanted to learn and grow, as you so often claim, you may be more inclined to listen more than you put your foot in your mouth.

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)

HA!

I like it Soon!




I have to say this....

It's not just about having a posative attitude.
It's about the messege you personally convey.
It's about what you say, when you aren't saying anything at all!

All I asked for was proof of what you all said.

Did you ever give it?

Maybe I missed it.

I thought I never saw it and thoguht you guys are just shying away from backing up what you say. Maybe you are right and I just dont see what you are clearly typing.

What I have done in asking these questions and answering what you have asked me must be cruel for the names I have ben called and the way I am talked to.

I guess all I can say at this point is I am sorry for being so fucked by being raised and taught in America that I cant even comprehend the topic at hand.


On that note...Memento Mori.

This is my poll and I can cry if I want to

I want to apoligize for my post yesterday. I was feeling quite bummed out, and I now regret what I typed.

Sorry all.

Oh geez. How did I predict that Professor VinegarTaster would come out of the woodwork to read my post and condemn me for my views?

Who are you to tell me what this entire site is about? POAC is all about providing information to those who are interested in knowing the truth. This forum is about expressing opinions, among other things. Not all of those opinions are going to be rosy, optismitic, bright opinions. My opinion is my own, and I will continue to express what I think even if it offends some people. If you don't like it, I suggest you don't read my posts. Do the words "Bite me" mean anything to you?

Yank,

betcha never thought that "bite me" would be a "write in" on your poll.

Sorry!!!!

It was a great topic.

I remember at some point, we were even discussing it here.

I think that Kerry could have done things if he revealed it, but I don't think one of those things would have been winning. It probably would have energized debate, got some non-political people thinking and maybe even scared bush, but the truth is that by the time it was 2004, Bush and his cronies had fixed everything in such a way that he really couldn't lose the election. Or let me rephrase that, he wouldn't yet lose his position in the white house, not so sure he "won" anything in the first place.

WOW!!! Made a good point there! All those extra-curricular activities gotta be required on a Presidential/national candidate's bio and resume from now on BY LAW >>>that way we'll have informed consent to vote for PNAC or Skull & Bones or Future Farmers of America, whatever. I would suggest with-holding such information should immediately disqualify any national candidate running for a federal office and bar them in the future too (as we've learned, once a liar always a liar )

http://tinyurl.com/c7agq

"MY VIEW OF JOHN KERRY POST FACTO THE ELECTION

Like so many other Americans or for that matter Europeans and other nationals, The Iraq war did not make any sense after the emerging evidence of the lack WMDs. It was only when viewing it against the backdrop of the PNAC publication, Rebuilding Americas Defenses, that any sense could be made. That awareness became somewhat numbing when coming into full focus of where Bush and Cheney were taking this nation.

On the 18th of October 2004, I learned that John Kerry’s brother Cameron was to appear at a press conference in Reno held at the University of Nevada Reno. I made a special effort to be there and to personally hand him the following document.

-----------------------------000-------------------------------

Thrust of the Project for a New American Century

(PNAC)

By Douglas A. Wallace, JD

The Bush administration Agenda was foreshadowed in a 1990 Defense Planning Guidance authored by Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz, et al.

I concur in the following analysis of the plan:

"The Plan is for the United States to rule the world. The overt theme is unilateralism, but it is ultimately a story of domination. It calls for the United States to maintain its overwhelming military superiority and prevent new rivals from rising up to challenge it on the world stage. It calls for domination over friends and enemies alike. It says not that the United States must be more powerful, or most powerful, but that it must be absolutely powerful." (Author unknown)

The plan was presented to Bill Clinton in 1997 but he rejected it for obvious reasons.

In 2000 the planners agreed that in order to quickly implement the program another ‘Pearl Harbor’ type Cataclysmic event would be needed. (9/11) (2000 was election year and George Bush was earmarked by Cheney and the neo-cons to execute this plan)

The plan called for conquering Iraq first then attentions to Syria and Iran.

Planning for the Iraq war was begun within a week of the January 20, 2001 inauguration. (Plan of Attack, Bob Woodward)

Within a short while Bush became convinced and said. “Okay, find me a way to do it”. (Plan of Attack, Bob Woodward)

Question: Did the administration have prior notice of The 9/11 attack as some have suggested but chose to allow it to happen in order to put the plan into action?

Vice President-elect Dick Cheney had been given the job of selecting the White house staff and the members of the cabinet. He placed 10 of the original authors of PNAC in the upper echelons of the government. These persons are known as ultra right wing neo-con war hawks.

Cheney was also assigned the job of assembling an energy task force made up of energy corporate leaders. No environmentalists were invited. The entire matter is the subject of a FOIA lawsuit as Cheney has refused to release information. However it is known that a map of the Iraq oilfields was present on the conference table for six months prior to 9/11. (Iraq has 113 billion barrels of oil underground)

Linking Iraq to 9/11 was vital to initiate the attack on Iraq and begin implementation of PNAC. Hyped intelligence was used to bait and switch the reason for the war from WMDs to, “The world is better off without Saddam” when the weapons allegations were proven false.

In order to secure the plan in the Middle East it is necessary to establish a long term military presence in Iraq as a staging point for thrusts against Syria and Iran, et al. Presently, 14 permanent military bases are being built there. The idea that Iraq will ever be a free and independent member of the world community is entirely false. How could they be? Americans have been lied to and misguided into allowing implementation of PNAC.

Our troops are being used and wasted by the administration in a war fought under false pretenses to fulfill the hopes of a few right-wing religious fanatics in the White House and Department of Defense. The lives of innocent Iraqi civilians (over 30,000) or Iraqi soldiers (over 20,000) are of no significance to the President, Vice President or the war-hawks.

The only way to stop this insanity in its tracks is to vote George W. Bush out of office! ***

Doug Wallace 10-15-2004

P.S. One needs to remember the history of Adolph Hitler, his method of using terrorism as a fear tool to dupe rational Germans out of their liberty in the 1930,s after the “terrorist” Burning of the Reichstag and his grandiose plan for the Third Reich! History not remembered is bound to be relived!

***It is however puzzling to me why the Kerry/Edwards campaign has not exposed this ruse on the part of the Bush administration to implement this right-wing agenda. Is he Complicit?

-------------------------0000---------------------------

There was no effort on the part of the Kerry campaign to inform Americans of PNAC. Indeed where in all the congress have we heard from any member about it?

Originally, I had intended to join Kerry as a beneficiary of the lawsuit but after his sudden collapse on the morning of November 3rd followed by his going offshore during January 6th Congressional consideration of the electoral vote, I decided he was not worthy of any help from even those who had voted for him. Collusion with or cowardice in the face of the enemy with desertion from his supporters could be seen when he had promised that “every vote counted”. Is he now just “loyal” opposition?

There is however, a rumor that his daughter's life had been threatened should he attempt to challenge the outcome of the election. Should this be true then a different light is cast on the issue and it would demonstrate the risk factor that must be taken by anyone who seeks to correct the flaws in our present system of government."