Are we making a difference with POAC and this forum, or are we just preaching to the choir? I personally think POAC is great. It's the best board I have found for reporting what I cannot find on the politically-correct MSM. But what I think we need to do is to reach people who DO NOT share our point of view: Either those who are politically apathetic or those who have tendencies to be pro Bush or pro Republican, but who just have not taken the time to really think about what their support for BushCo means. We need to work on educating these people, not just telling each other things we want to hear and believe.

I'm not a member of any organized party. I'm a Progressive!

AFW

From time to time click the button near the bottom left that says "LAST CLICK"

See how many guests are logged on the forum and what they read.
Check my Impeachment Checklist post. It's damned near over 1000 views!
Don't tell me I haven't made a small differance.





And even if there were no guests,
I personally am a whole hell of a lot more informed and educated!



Ya know AFW, you can be a real bummer!

I understand the question in context, AFW...but you can go to any rightwing discussion board, register, and then do your damndest to try to "reach" those Bush lovers who have been shovel-fed the PNAC garbage for over five years.

Have at it...and then come back and tell us how long you've lasted before you're banned. Maybe, if you carefully read their rules for posting and follow them religiously, you'll last a bit longer, but I doubt that you'll be welcomed with open arms. You'll be raining on their parade and saying things they don't want to hear.

Over at http://www.tvnewslies.org there's a Bushie who calls himself buckshot. He's tolerated at that website mainly because his ignorance is so blatant, he's regarded more as a pet monkey than anything else. Visit the site and see for yourself how bucky spams the board with his idiocy. Another reason bucky is still at TVNL is the owner of the board is pretty neglectful. There's very little full board moderating and/or supervision.

Most of the Bush lovers who come here can't or won't follow the forum rules, and thus they're usually gone within a few hours...days at the most.

Maybe you wouldn't be like that at a rightwing site, but you'll never know until you try.

Catherine

Well, I suspect what I am about to say will ruffle a few feathers, but please know that this is not my intent.

I think very highly of POAC and absolutely do believe the website is of tremendous benefit, but I do not believe this forum makes a great deal of difference outside of helping to boost the moral of these who routinely post here. If it aids folks in articulating an argument or even gives them a place where they feel comforted by being among the like-minded then it has value, but I doubt if it makes a significant difference to more than the regulars.

That many read the posts, Sky, does not mean that the posts impact them, call them to action, or change minds. Those who come here see the current administration being called names, images of the president as a chimp, and republicans all lumped together as immoral fools incapable of seeing "the truth". If they are moderate or right-leaning it is highly unlikely, under the circumstances, that they will read more than a few of such posts before writing this group off as being a bunch of wingers (which, like it or not, we are), not reflective of their views and seemingly insensitive to perspectives other than our own. Because this forum is billed as being a progressive site we feel free to espouse a very progressive/left leaning/often left-wing position, and that is rarely complimentary of the neo-con agenda. As such, I find it likely that the forum preaches to little more than the choir.

If this forum was hoping to encourage republicans to consider a more left-leaning view (and I do not believe that was its intended purpose), then the language would need to be more inlcusive, we would need to demonstrate a better understanding of why the right believes as they do and make efforts to engage them on common ground, and moderate to right-wingers would need to be referred to as something other than "ignorant", "sheeple", and "thugs".

Now, before anyone suggests that if I don't like it here I can simply go away, please keep in mind that I do not mean to imply this place is bad, that I dislike it, or that your comments are all worthless. Please take my comments in the context of the stated question. To reiterate, I think this forum makes we who read and post here feel better and reassures us that there are like-minded folks out there, it helps to us synthesize our arguments, and gives us a place to bounce our ideas around, but it is no more likely to sway someone who leans right or is on the fence than is a right-wing forum likely to change any one of us into a neo-con.

An honest two cents worth...

I hear ya VT, but the question was, are we making a difference, period!
(refering to the forum)

Didn't say a word about encouraging the education of Republicans.



When I refered to the number of viewers, I know full will only a small percentage
really take much away from it.
However, understanding the ripple effect, I know how a very small change
can have major implications in very unexpected ways, places and times.
Imagine the infinate number of possibilities in just one infinately small change in reality.

Of the 850 or so who have viewed the Check List,
Maybe 10 will actually be moved to write a letter or two.
OK, that's certainly not a revolution,
but 10 letters did get written that might not have been otherwise.


I'm not looking to change the world.
I'm only hoping to shift it just a very very small bit.

And if you do your part and shift it a small bit,
and the rest of us do their part,
pretty soon we've moved it a somewhat larger, very small bit.

Then again, I also vote!
Just one of 300 million registered voters at that!
Talk about small bits!?!




Anyone who is hoping this forum or any forum can actively effect policy change with in the US Govt is a dreamer,
and god love ya for it too!

AFW, the post originator, in the first post in this thread, clarified the context of the question with these statements:



I added the emphasis above to highlight those of AFW's words that indicate you are incorrect in your assessment that the question was "are we making a difference, period?". The context states that AFW wonders if we are influencing those with a different perspective and he specifically suggests that we need to be trying to reach those with an opposing point of view.

On this I am certainly in agreement with AFW, and it seems you are in agreement with me that no, this forum is not having a major impact outside of "the choir".

Okay then, one last plug for Sky's graphics. I think it's a great idea to get people curious as to "what the hell is PNAC?" who we might not engage in any other way.What's wrong with a pet monkey anyway?

I'll certainly agree with you there, soon2b! I think the graphic is great and suspect that the phrasing has gotten many people to Google PNAC and will continue to do so!

As to the pet monkey...

VT,

AFW's ORIGINAL question was just what I said.
Within the context of his post he SUBSEQUENTLY made suggestions as to what he thought we SHOULD do.

The original question was still "do we make a difference?"
And my unqualified reply is, YES! Even if that effective difference is at least at the outset, pretty small. My point remains,
who knows?

I believe in the tradition of Johnny Appleseed, to plant seeds profusely,
not staying to see if they grow or not!
Though having faith that certainly some will.


If I change only one persons opinion even just a little about just one thing,
imagine the possible ripple effect over the years!

If I may say more about this, my post was not meant to be negative and directed against a certain group of people, as Sky apparently interpreted it ( ), but it was an honest question meant to make us all think a little about the impact we are having and look for ways to improve that impact.

I know we can't reach the pro-Bush right, Catherine, and I said we should try to either reach the politically apathetic or those who vote Republican but don't know what the Republicans are doing and could be reached if they knew. These people CAN be turned to our side. But I also believe we have to be very careful in our approach. Showing too strong of an anti-Bush or anti-Republican feelings can work against us by making us appear as if we are so obsessed with our "hatred" of the Republicans and Bush that nothing we say can be really trusted. Don't think I feel that way, but thats the attitude I believe a lot of non-progressives have toward us.

I don't know how to reach them (because they don't come to this board, at least not in any numbers), but I believe we are not reaching them now and that we are mostly just preaching to the choir here. It makes for great reading, but wouldn't we like to know we are really changing things in the process?

Please don't attack me for expressing this opinion. Its just "food for thought" for all concerned.

I didn't mean to attack you, AFW, and I apologize if I seemed to. I understand where you're coming from, and if you ever do come up with a workable solution, let me know.

I remember a very interesting website that was quite active prior to the 2004 election called Republicans For Kerry. After the election, the founder started a new website entitled the Thoughtful Centrist, but I can't find it now among my "Favorites." "page not found" keeps popping up. There were some very interesting folks at that website who saw right through the Bushies, but were registered Republicans and/or Independents.


Check out this site, too:

http://intellectualconservative.com/v-web/...590f2e73a4a9296

It looks like it's a board about the size of this one. It might be a place to start to test your theory about our not actually reaching enough folks who have minds to try to change.

I'm always open to new ideas, but I don't have a lot of time to waste arguing with Bush lovers like the buckshot character I mentioned. You probably don't, either, but I think you should never hesitate to express yourself even though you may get shot down for it.

Catherine

Thanks, Catherine.

When I said "Don't attack me" I didn't have you in mind. I was thinking more of a few Democrats here who seem to be getting pretty defensive of my attacks on "their party". There are no sacred cows with me.