Note: This was originally going to be a response to one of Cat's Posts, but I've broadened the scope to let you folks in on something I think that few are aware of.
=====================================================

There is no doubt in my mind that the Country is headed straight down the "shitter".

IMO, and from what I've read of yours, GW leads a Party of religious extremists, anarchistic business people, and a large segment of the population that are easily manipulated by simplistic explanations, symbols of authority, and a belief that anything that follows something rooted in anchient history a.k.a. traditions is necessary to make everyone's lives better.

If about 50% of voters support GW, and there is a swing vote around 25%, it tells me that 50% of us, at the present time are hopelessly deluded, while 25% of us are hopelessly ignorant.

At the same time, we've another segment of the population that are hopelessly deluded into believing that a Democrat whom would look into the camera, as he says he would not do anything to "pander to the American people" as a means of putting the brakes on, and reversing the anarchistic environment under which American businesses have globalized. Instead, he would allow anarchistic business practices to continue, the flow of legal immigrants that are saturating the job markets of the middle-class and lower-class to continue, but "solve" these very things he called unfair, by providing some MINOR tax breaks or tax penalties for businesses.

So, again we have almost the remaining 50% of the population believing that staying in Iraq is what we should do. Anarchistic business practices should continue. The number of legal immigrants that saturate our job markets is not worth mentioning or controlling, and someone that barely differs from GW would do something good for this Country.

All of these people are mistaken, in my view. However, I'm referring to what I can only guess is over 90% of our population being completely misguided, or corrupt, or hopelessly lost in their vision of turning the clock backward 2000 years.

So, what is left??? 5%, 3% MAYBE.

Unless you "buy" the idea that our economy is improving, and our standard of living is being maintained, then you might believe all the garbage coming from Dems and Reps.

I don't buy a word of it. Our economy is and has been in the shitter since 1 year before Clinton left office, due to his uncontrolled and mistaken idea that NAFTA and Globalization would be a good thing for our economy and standard of living.

History has proven that to be totally false. We are witnessing the eventual destruction of the middle-class. The lower-class is already in a battle with the results of globalization. The upper-class is becoming a class of the super-rich, with an abundance of wealth, unlke they have ever seen before.

I don't believe you buy that garbage any more than I do. However, there is a choice to be made....

Do you REALLY BELIEVE the ideas of 3% to 5% of the Country are going to become popular, despite that fact that the rest of the population totally disagrees with us?

I do not believe it will happen.

So, what are the alternatives? You can stay here and witness the decline of the Nation into even more pathetically inclined people, with no idea how to fix what is broken, and you can voice your views, to no avail, with respect to changing the Country, or you might consider where a sane Country can be found.

Here's an interesting bit of information you and many other people are almost certainly unaware of, and I only recently discovered myself.

There are significant reforms regarding post-retirement income, that are underway in the EU. One of the groups of people that these reforms will most effect are women, as it is recognized that yesterday's stay-at-home-moms, only worked a short period of their lifetime in the job market, and today's post-retirment provisions for them are totally insufficient.

Moreover, it is recognized, for example in England, that NOBODY has put away funds that can provide them with a post-retirement income, given the bare minimum costs required, and the current system under which post-retirement income is currently distributed.

Therefore, with regard to both men and women, post-retirement income will be undergoin significant change, and that change BTW is supported by the organization of England's businesses, both large and small.

Why should that matter?

Well, first off, even with their peculiarities, the Brits do not live in an insane society. In fact, Church attendence has sharply declined. Religion is not a part of English politics. All of that is a pretty big thing. After all is living in an insane Society preferable???

Next, when you work in the EU, you are making the equivalent of our Social Security, PROVIDING you are permitted to work, and not there on a "Holiday Homemaker Visa", and a very few other regulations.

Here's an example of how such things work ASSUMING THERE IS NO CHANGE to the calculation of retirement income..... which is certainly an absurd assumption, as it has been projected, and it is accepted, that unless the current retirement system changes, there will be millions of people living in poverty in the UK when they require a post-retirement income.... That said....

The system is currently based on 44 years as a life-time of work. Currently, each year of work entitles a person to 1/44th of the total 44/44ths (i.e. 100% of retirement income).

That system WILL be changed, but for the sake of argument....

Let's say it did not change, furthermore lets say a person has another 27 years of work, before reaching retirement age..... REMEMBER RETIREMENT AGE IN MANY COUNTRIES IS NOT 55 LIKE IN ITALY, BUT 67 FOR MEN AND 65 FOR WOMEN, by the time our retirement rolls around!

So.... let's say one works nearly 30 years ..... WHAT HAPPENS THEN?

Some real nice shit! FIRST OFF, YOU GET YOUR SOCIAL SECURITY CHECK FROM THE U.S. IN THE SAME AMOUNT AS IF YOU LIVED IN THE U.S.. - NO CHANGE.

BUT IN ADDITION TO THAT..... LET'S GUESTIMATE THAT the Brits are nice, and recognize that 44 years of work is not a valid basis, and suppose they drop that number to 10 years for stay at home moms, and 20 years for everyone else FOR EVERYONE to be entitely to 100% of their post retirement income. OR LET'S SAY THE BRITS ARE MEAN.... let's say that approximately 30 years of work, is only 75% of a full retirement income (WHICH BTW., IS NOT THE DIRECTION THAT THE UK IS GOING).

So, what happens????

Not only do you get your SS Check from the U.S., but YOU ALSO GET ESSENTIALLY THE SAME THING FROM THE BRITS, ON TOP OF YOUR SOCIAL SECURITY CHECK!

WHY DOES THAT MATTER????

Glad you asked.

No matter HOW LONG YOU WORK AND STAY IN THE U.S., there comes a point at which you have a specific retirement income assured. HOWEVER, THAT INCOME AMOUNT WILL NEVER BE INCREASED, if you make more money, nor decreased, if you make none.

In other words, ....

You can sit here the rest of your life spinning your wheels and never adding to your retirement inclome, beyond what you can save, OR YOU COULD go to the EU, and ADD TO YOUR RETIREMENT INCOME WITH A SS CHECK FROM AN EU NATION, and also add to your post retirement income whatever you have managed to save, or your employer might contribute, SINCE IN ENGLAND, THE
NOTION OF A PENSION IS NOT A THING OF THE PAST, AND there are a number of employers that DO have such plans.

In any case....

It's a matter of spinning your wheels and NOT INCREASING YOUR GUARANTEED POST-RETIREMENT INCOME, or doing something about increasing one's retirement income.

Perhaps, you are from a wealthy family and have nothing to be concerned about.
HOWEVER, if you are in the Middle-Class, or even the Lower-Class, MOVING elsewhere is not only the best option to increase one's retirement, but within the lower and middle classes, there are a number of professions that are AN AUTOMATIC "IN" to the EU, and THE GAMBLE THAT SOMEONE ELSE MUST TAKE, ASSUMING THEY ARE EVEN ELIGIBLE TO OBTAIN A SPECIFIC TYPE OF VISA, is NOT a consideration, IF you are in one of those professions. For example, Nursing.
A list of professions can be found on the Web Sties belonging to each EU Country.

In any case, while I've no plans to become a nurse, and will seek a different form of VISA, which if things go well after 5.5 years citizenship can be obtained, and there is no further need for VISA approval and renewal. And the change in citizenship has no bearing on still recieving the same amount of SS Income from the U.S.

Considering the options, and the direction we are moving toward, as well as, the current madness in our Country today, what I've described makes sense from a Social and Economic point of view.

Certainly, no one can expect to get rich in England. On the other hand, how many work years will it be before one is layed-off from work in the U.S., and finds that due to being (for example) age 55, no company would hire you as an employee with benefits, nor pay you the sort of salary that you made when you were 5 years younger???

I'm not going to wait to find out.... I know the answer to that, AND EVEN if it is a similar situation in England, it still doesn't detract from the amount of retirement income that would be added, or in some future plan, not added as 1/44th, but added as perhaps 1 of 20 or 30 years of work.

Taking the math further, if one subscribes to the idea that 1/3rd of post-retirement income should come from SS, a 2nd 1/3rd of post-retirement income should come from a 401K, and a final 1/3rd should come from private savings, e.g and IRA.

So, assuming you obtain your 1/3rd retirement income from SS, while in the UK, and obtain close to or perhaps 100% of their retirement income to make for the 2nd 1/3rd of post-retirement income, that then leaves the last 1/3rd which assuming you have 27 years in which to put away, for example 12% of ones income, could easily grow to become the final 1/3rd of one's project post-retirement income requirements.

Either way, assuming your not living off of an inheritence or a very sucessfull business untill the day you die, your expected post-retirement income would be greater than a Brit's or your own, if you stayed in the U.S.

Question: Would you miss living in an insane Country with no realistic hope of any significantly favorable change?

Put that in your pipe and smoke it! lol

I have every reason to live in a country that will never be 100% of what everyone wants.
A country that offers the greatest hope.

A country that WILL go through it's convulsions and survive even without your approval!



Your numbers provided within that very long winded post are faulty.
Contained with in are no facts, in fact it's completely opinion worded to look like fact.
About the only thing I see in all of it is that you take yourself very literally
and hold yourself in very high esteem.



Treat, you are reaching.
Why are you reaching so far?

If you are European, and don't have a stake in this
as an American does, what's your angle?



Personally?
I think you're here to promote Treat!

No som.

I've put months into studying this topic. You are reading my plans for the near future.

I'm not promoting anyone.

What numbers are you referring to?

Unlike yourself, I think we are not the Country that I've lived in for nearly 50 years, and I have no illusions about the % of religious extremists here, nor the GW supporters in the US, and a swing vote of about 25% that can't make up there mind about someone like GW, for months.

The thread is intended to be informative. True, I cited no references.
On the other hand, the information regarding the 1/3 1/3 1/3 post-retirement income projection is common knowledge. Whilst the fact that one recieves a SS Check from the U.S. and what is essentially the equivalent is common knowledge to expatriots in the EU, if not to the folks here. However, anyone having an interest in such plans can confirm it without a problem.

The first thing to "get over" is the my Country is the greatest blah, blah, blah.
It ain't anymore. It's one of the most fucked up Countries around. Sorry to rain on your parade, if you've not independently come to a rational conclusion.

Do you actually imagine there are more than 7% Dems that are liberals despite what the Dem Primary showed?

Well, if there's 7& Dems that are Liberals, and the Country is roughly split in half,
you can divide that number by 2, (or more) and you'll get the numbers I referred to, of the incredibly small number of people that have not jumped on the bandwagon with the Dems or the Repugs.

My approval? LMAO! What's this my approval thing?
Do you take me as your "god", or what?

Thanks, but I'd rather not convulse with ya. lol

Yes, yes, yes, we get your point, Treat; the USA sucks. It's a terrible country, not worthy of your valuable time or considerable mental talent (not to mention your apparent typing skills!). Don't waste your stunning intellect on something so wholly broken as the USA. Get out while you can. Go to one of those European paradises where every citizen is completely delighted with their government, where curruption doesn't exist, and where every citizen has a free and equal voice. Write long, self agrandizing treatises on the mess that is the USA so all of your new compatriots can see how lucky they are that you escaped and came to them with your great genius and gift of enlightenment. We here will do our best to suffer the loss of someone of your stature and advanced understanding. Rest comfortably, though, knowing that we will, somehow, persevere...

Treat,

The moment you resort to insult,
you lose!





You aren't as good as you think you are.
But then, I've already said that haven't I?



Treat.
Straight up.
I question your motives for being here on this forum.
Who is it you wish to "educate"?




As to your future plans, good luck! Sincerely!

However, I believe in the principals that give America it's huge potential.
So I will stick around and fight for what is good, and not run away.
In fact, if I did not believe, I would not be on this forum.

Which raises the question, if you have made up your mind,
and have your future plans,
why are you here?
Do you need to have the correctness of your ideas and plans reaffirmed?
Is this about politics, or about you?

Witness the pot calling the kettle "black" throughout this post.
This is not a post worthy of a response beyond pointing out that it appears to be an excellent classic example of "Projection". (Grab your Psych 101 textbook.)

My suggestion, if you want to discuss or debate the thread is to drop the personal BS that seems to find itself into all of your posts. The ride won't be as bumpy.

Your attempts at republicanism has been noted.
That's not intended as an insult, though certainly it is insulting.
You haven't learned this distinction?


I'm not worried about opinion Treat.
Your attempt to attack me won't help you.



Have a nice day!

Enjoy "persevering".

There are better alternatives to that. It's a simple matter of being open-minded and less ethnocentric, when all things are considered.

One of those realities is the direction of the Country going down the shitter, willingly, and in numbers that would have been astonishing to anyone, a few decades ago.

This is not simply a commentary on just GW's politics, and the misguided people that support him. This is just as much a rational conclusion about a Country
with a huge number of insane religious extremists.

Now, it may be your preference to "endure" what you might imagine to be a temporary fad, but I think it ill advised to consider the incredible amount of religious extremisim as a fad.

som,

I don't need to engage in attacks of anyone to debate a thread.
That is not my style. On the other hand, I note it to be your own,
and simply point that out to you as unnecessary and unproductive,
if not somewhat amusing. lol

I take you as being the "straight-man" in this comedy.
Question is how few other people might grasp that idea as possible! lol

So you do it,
but then accuse someone else of doing it,
hoping all eyes will turn away from you.
How Republican of you!

Your attempts to marginalize me,
make you look like a fool.
(Your insecurity is showing)


Treat.
Well, at least you're able to fool your self.

Have fun dear little one.
(Blatant insulting sarcastic slam, and not one tear of guilt or shame!)

Thank you, Treat2, for defining the problem with America with such precision. What are you, personally, doing about it, beside telling people how fucked up America is?

I was wondering how long it would take me to find self-righteous liberal such as yourself: our ultimate patriot and savior, eh?

Summing this up in in a word: garbage.

To whom do you owe your allegience?

A good answer. No, maybe even a great answer, but not to this particular question. What actions are you personally taking to make the U.S. a better nation to live in and to live with?

As self-proclaimed "Liberals", exactly what within the text below do you (pluaral, as in y'all) disagree with???
==================================================
"There is no doubt in my mind that the Country is headed straight down the "shitter".

IMO, and from what I've read of yours, GW leads a Party of religious extremists, anarchistic business people, and a large segment of the population that are easily manipulated by simplistic explanations, symbols of authority, and a belief that anything that follows something rooted in anchient history a.k.a. traditions is necessary to make everyone's lives better.

If about 50% of voters support GW, and there is a swing vote around 25%, it tells me that 50% of us, at the present time are hopelessly deluded, while 25% of us are hopelessly ignorant.

At the same time, we've another segment of the population that are hopelessly deluded into believing that a Democrat whom would look into the camera, as he says he would not do anything to "pander to the American people" as a means of putting the brakes on, and reversing the anarchistic environment under which American businesses have globalized. Instead, he would allow anarchistic business practices to continue, the flow of legal immigrants that are saturating the job markets of the middle-class and lower-class to continue, but "solve" these very things he called unfair, by providing some MINOR tax breaks or tax penalties for businesses.

So, again we have almost the remaining 50% of the population believing that staying in Iraq is what we should do. Anarchistic business practices should continue. The number of legal immigrants that saturate our job markets is not worth mentioning or controlling, and someone that barely differs from GW would do something good for this Country.

All of these people are mistaken, in my view. However, I'm referring to what I can only guess is over 90% of our population being completely misguided, or corrupt, or hopelessly lost in their vision of turning the clock backward 2000 years.
"

An even better, or at least bigger answer, but it still does not address the question.

Zooks, treat2 answered your question, only it was in the Watercooler Forum in the AGE thread:





Catherine

'zooks and Sky? Does it really take that many words to say "don't let the door hit you on the ass." ?

Nope

All I'm seeing is opinion dressed up as fact by Treat. Furthermore, Treat seems to have missed the introduction to the forum where it is listed as "a place for like minded people to discuss the current events" and mistaken it for a place for political debate. We don't really deal muchin debateables as much as facts here, Treat.

If you really want to look at Bush's numbers and who supports him take a look at the 15% solution

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/15_solution.htm

POAC, when I read stuff like this, I really don't bother reading further for good reasons.

First, the forum is for political opinion, while we all may disagree, you'd have ea very long road to travel to show that any one person's opinion is much more "dressed up as fact" than any other other's, and that's a fact. In citing my own, it indicates quite clearly "I'm about to read BS".

Second, when I see the ID "Treat" used once, at the begining of a response, I know the response is not concerned with debate. However, when I see the word Treat twice, within a few words, I know one thing is certain: "I'm about to read BS".

If you care to debate, then you ought to know how to do it.

If the owner of this site says that it isn't a debate forum, then it isn't a debate forum. I don't think you saying other wise is going to make it so. If anyone knows what kind of forum it is, it is the creator of this organization.

When was the last time you were tagged by a cop,
and then took the time to inform him as to what the law is on the issue?


If you have ever done this, what was the cops reaction?

Ah! Well, that's not debatable.

Something tells me that if I read the rules of very Forum they would be the same.

Dontchu just hate us liberal fascists!


Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

What an immense jackoff.

Awww, you guys! I go and take a break to do some actual work, and you run this guy off. I just wanted to tell him that his election numbers are way too complicated...in presidential elections in the US, the margin of victory is small. About half of the voters get the liar they want, and about half the voters don't. The rest don't want either liar, so don't vote. The American presidential election process has been so rigged through the electoral college, non-standard voting procedures from state to state and private funding of candidates (and now black-box voting machines), that candidates of only two types can be elected. We voters, who don't yet know better, label the two camps as Republican and Democrat, but the true division lies between neo-conservative and neo-liberal. Both camps are fuelled by greed, and will arrive at the same ultimate destination. They will simply travel different routes to get there. Clinton was a neo-liberal, and really boosted for "free-trade," and the Republicans hated him for it. Now they are in the catbird seat, and realize how much money can be made by the already-very-wealthy with CAFTA, NAFTA, etc. The crime is not that immigrants, documented or not, are "taking jobs away from Americans," they are not. We are a nation of immigrants. Immigrants, especially undocumented, are doing jobs that nobody else wants. The real crime is that the American worker, who bears the brunt of the income tax, is forced to subsidize the exportation of American jobs across borders and overseas to cheaper labor markets, thus creating vast migrant labor forces and driving down the cost and value of labor world-wide. The American worker is not competing with, say, Mexicans in the US. He (and she) are competing with Mexican workers in Mexico. The neo-liberals are slicker salesmen, and don't have to resort to the oppressive measures here at home that are employed by the neo-conservatives. Both groups understand that armaments and war are a capitalists dream come true. You can only use a bomb once, and once you have, you will immediately need more. War is good business for the wealthy, and the illusion that it depresses unemployment figures wows the voters. I would love to see all this change. I want the US to be a good place to live and a good neighbor as well. There are, I believe, many more who want the same things. Given time, organization and timing, it can and will happen. But nobody is going to accomplish it from somewhere else, so I'm staying. By your own argument, you would seem to be a neo-liberal, as your argument is fuelled solely by personal financial gain. You are talking about gaming the system. I say neo-liberal because you at least put lipstick on your pig before you insist we kiss it. A neo-conservative would find lipstick offensive to both God and profit margin. It's funny. We Americans seem to be taken with complaining about foreigners who come here to work. I wonder what the EU countries will think of Americans who arrive there to be paid to not work.

Ha!


Zooks, I love ya man!
You're brilliant!

However, your very well stated comments,
filled with facts and feelings I have for my own,
I doubt our dear Treat would have valued them as I do.

Yeah, that was beautifully said. Amen.

I can be Treat and respond to that for you...



How was that for an impersonation of Treat?

Seriously though, That was an excellent post.

TJ,

It's a real "treat" when you drop in and play with us.




Thanks!




About that war on Easter.
It's not too early to start now.

Send e-mail to the Big Apple. (Ann Coulter)

It's a treat to be able to join in. =-)

Believe me, I'm getting ready for that war on Easter. And I think I've got the Bunny on our side! You'd be suprised what that little guy will do for booze and smokes.



heh heh heh I'll be giggling about that all night now.

Gawd!

G'night!

G'night.

Hey, Zooks...in top form, as always!

No wonder T2 wouldn't answer your question about what he was going to do to help make America better! T2 just didn't have the balls to admit to you that he wasn't going to do anything; instead his plans included leaving America! Real patriot there....as my grandma used to say: "That caps it all!"

On reflection, however, perhaps his leaving America would help improve it....

Good work, Zooks....you rock! Made my day.


Catherine