Class issues seem taboo, even here on POAC, where they are spoken of in the second and third person. Since politics is really not much more than a way to legitimize and enforce class divisions, oppression and exploitation, I thought it might be nice to put social class on the table. It has a lot to do with the kind of politics one supports and opposes. I, for one, seem to hover in the working class, sometimes precipitously close to the brink of working poor. I seem to survive, almost nicely, without benefit of acreage or SUVs or a stock portfolio. Class war is seldom spoken of openly by the wealthy and upper classes, its perpetrators and defenders.

Good poll and good words Zooks.

I'm working poor.
I have a roof, 30 year old single wide, that is my unending project.
I pay my bills, even if sometimes it's tight.
I don't have enough left over for the usual boys toys.
But I'm not complaining.
There's too much that's free to enjoy to have time for whining!


Class war is a human reality.
It's always been there, even in communist countries!
But in America, ever since the Reagan years,
class seperation has never been more distinct.
I grew up in a working class family.
Both my parents worked so they could have their dream of owning a boat.
Because of this, I grew up rubbing shoulders with boaters and yachters!
Out on the river, after a few beers and a great BBQ, class distinctions dissapeared!

That was then. Today it has become socially acceptable, even desirable to be able to look down on the little people! High school kids now routinely spend $500 or much more on Prom Night! It's become the normal! Even before then, most kids quite well know which social trata they belong too, and their social life, even future dreams and ambitions are molded by this reality!

I'm old enough now that I am secure enough to not give a shit who thinks what about me. I accomplish a lot because I'm not shy about being a successful scrounge! Rich people throw away a lot of good shit! (No, I'm not a dumpster diver. Though if one is in my world, I'm not shy to look inside!)

I have what lot of people don't have.
I like who I am! Money can't buy that!
Am I envious of those who have more than they can use?

Sometimes, yes! But I get over it!


What get's me more than that is to see people worse off than me,
and those who have too much can't even see them!
They don't wanna know. They seem to avoid quilt.
Donating a few bills to Katrina relief is their emotional repair.
So when they're driving a vehicle that's worth more than most peoples homes,
they don't have to care.

They gave at the office!

My family is worth about $3.4 billion, give or take.

This is why I don't do credit, even though I have it, and advocate tax protest...that is to say, non-payment of taxes. The wealthy and upper classes in this country are subsidized by the working-class and poor through these mechanisms, primarily. Easy credit at usurious rates means the equivalent of prices generally 20-25% higher than those who can afford to pay cash. And our tax structure excessively taxes the working-class (and intends to tax labor even more heavily in the very near future) and gives them and the poor fewer and fewer services in order to fund tax cuts for the upper classes. I am tired of funding somebody else's child's pre-school at $20g per year while any American child is forced to attend schools that cannot afford books, paper, pencils or toilet paper. And yes, it is a class thing. These are the facts that keep the Democrats invested in the status quo. They are bought and owned by the same great American myth as are the Republicans...that they can continue to spend more than they have forever, at "somebody" else's expense. At the expense of the poor and working classes, who also fight their wars for them. And when this house of cards collapses, as it must, it will be the poor and working classes who will be blamed. "They took too much, what did they expect?" The workers of this nation create all the wealth that others enjoy, and those who take their income from the labor of others are parasites. That come in two basic flavors, elephant and donkey.

Hubby makes 140K/year. 10% of that is health care insurance/expenses. Another 26K comes out in payroll taxes.

Edited to correct - annual payroll tax is actually 31K.

Been a union worker and activist for over 20 years. It's been a pretty good living for this part of the country where working class and middle class sometimes overlap. Hoping they leave Social Security alone and the health care crisis doesn't get worse.

Wait wait wait a minute, so most of the people that post here make more then 40k a year?

Holy shit! In my neck of the woods a job that pays 18k a year is damn good. If we own anything that we cant pick up ourselves, we are considered rich.

The sad part about those around me....there is almost zero chance of them finding something better then 20k a year. Most stable, two parent homes in my area make no more then 38-42k a year together. That is considered that you made it.

America is a class based system. I dont care what anyone says otherwise. It is almost impossible for anyone from my neck of the woods to come close to making 140k a year.

You say go to college, well we are. We just can not afford the colleges that most of us root for in college sports. We can afford community colleges with the help of FAFSA or similar programs. So, how many people do you know up top in your class that went to community college? Sure, you hear about someone here or there who "made" it. Nine times out of Ten in those stories, it was some unbelieveable chance of events or people who got them there or they broke the law.

Now breaking the law can make you some money, some egarly take that route. What else do they have to lose? Their freedom? Please. Their wealth? Did you listen to why they went into crime? Prison is not a punishment to people from my class; it is a stable meal and a roof over your head.

Then, there are those that really do try to be as honest as they can. Only to be over taxed, feed poisons, lied to about even the most mudane and simple things, forced by law to pay companies money every single month, that even slightly rich people only bulk at. Hell with all the bullshit I have to pay a month, I am suprised I can afford this luxury of a computer and the internet.

You know, my whole family makes less then what Pinget's husband pays a year in taxes. I didnt think people who made that much even cared about the real poor people in America.

Shit, thanks guys.

Putting myself in a "poor" person's shoes is not much of a stretch. When our first son was born, 10 years ago, we had no health insurance until 7 days before his birth. We were lucky that hubby was working for a cushy DC non-profit whose health plan did not consider my pregnancy a pre-existing condition. We got a small apartment in Arlington, a 3rd floor walk-up, rent $600/month. That was one week of dh's pay at the time. Minus taxes and such, we were barely scraping by but glad to be doing it. In '97 we moved into a nicer townhouse in Manassas. In '98 we realized that we could not afford a second car, a second child, or preschool for our eldest. So we took drastic measures and moved back to Alabama. I desperately miss big city life, but we, on some level, were not willing to accept the trade-offs.

I agree, my father-in-law pays my hubby a ridiculous amount, but who am I to complain?

We were lucky to have the 'working for dad' thing to fall back on. Damn lucky.

We moved to DC from south Florida, where you're lucky to make 24K/year. The main job skill there is "Would you like fries with that?"

I have never had Insurance and I grow up some in south florida, so I know how you feel. You may find this funny, but we moved to S. Florida to "make" money.

I think it's interesting that no one considers themselves lower middle class. To our nations credit, thanks in no small part to the labor movement, much of the working class has been able to achieve the middle class aspiratons of home ownership, sending the kids to college, etc. MM and Pinget are correct that it's all relative to where you live. My wages are considered pretty good here where you can buy a decent home for $80,000 or so and one that's adequate for 70 or 75. I lived in southern California for many years, and what I make here would probably be poverty wages there.

Damn, I missed some really GREAT discussions while I was gone on "vacation" (which really means I just didn't use my computer for 2 weeks and spent a lot of time re-organizing kid's toys and closets)...(no sarcasm intented either)

I make $20K exactly, per year. Of course, you must consider that I work for a university and we have "manditory" retirement that we must pay into which, per year, cuts 7.25% off ($1450) and childcare, which costs me $4008 per year. Sadly, my actual taxable income in BARELY over $15K. I live in the deep south and, in perspective, I am sure many of you would think the cost of living here is very cheap. But the truth is that a shitty house/apartment is going to cost about $500 a month. Considering that is exactly HALF of my monthly income, there is little room for anything. I am working poor because I work, otherwise, I would just be considered poor. But, ironically, I am not considered to be living below poverty level and qualify for ZERO goverment aid (but yes, I still am a strong supporter of social welfare). I DO have a college degree, Bachelor's in English, graduated at the TOP of my class with honors, but here, that means NOTHING. I probably have what most in the area consider one of the best jobs around, meaning I work for the university. But it still sucks. It still is a serious struggle to make it through each month and more often than not I find the only way to get by is to be about two weeks "behind" in my bills. I am not necessarily complaining, because my son and I are happy. I do everything I can to make our lives happy and good. I plan, as soon as humanly possible, to move away from here. I spend a good amount of time searching for jobs, and find that I am hugely qualified for tons of great jobs (a great job to me is to make enough to pay house, utilities, childcare, food...etc. I have no desire to have excess). Right now for me to actually make it, I would need to make about $10K more a year. And I will do it. I believe in myself. I just have to figure out how to get it done.

I honestly couldn't fathom making $140K a year. My god, that seems like a millonaire to me. BUT it doesn't make me think differently about Pinget, from what I have learned of her, she's an awesome lady. And as Sky admitted, sometimes I am very envious of those who have so much. But I do get over it. Because for as little as I have, I have more than others. And I have my son, whom I love more than anything on this earth, and certainly love more than money.

I know this was long, but this is a facinating subject for me.

--Left

Teaching in Japan pulls in about 28k for me each year. However, I have a mother to support in Canada, and about 50k worth of student loans, so I'm far from "rich."

Growing up, I had to go to the food bank for my ma, so we were "poor as shit."

Either people are ashamed to admit to being a member of this transitional social class, or this social stepping stone is gone. There was a time in this country when the working class and the middle class had a sizable overlap. A great many "blue collar" jobs were considered "professions," and were highly skilled and required some very specialized education. It was also common to transition from labor into management. Field niggers very rarely make it into the house nowadays. The lower middle class, that extremely important rung in the ladder, has been sent overseas. American labor is just now waking up to the fact that the next step up, for them, is gone. 'Bout time, and I'm sad that it took so long. And affordable higher education has been taken out of the formula for the working class, due to Republican policies at the state and federal levels. An important part of the buffer between the wealthy and the workers who create that wealth has been breached, and what should have been long-obvious has been made undeniable...the wealthy have declared war on the workers of this country and the rest of the world. Class war. Unless this gap is closed and the promise of upward mobility for the working class is restored, the US will ultimately fail as a nation. The vast majority of the population, denied a voice in the government by all the monkeyfucking of the regressive right, will rebel and martial law will become the necessary norm, in order to maintain the upward flow of wealth. The young firebrands who post on POAC will get their revolution, and will find that when social evolution is taken out of the context of process and chopped up into events, life can become very ugly and precarious. I think by now we pretty much know the dinosaurs were not wiped out by a giant meteor, the pet theory of the science of capitalism. The big carnivores died off because they ate their food faster than it could reproduce. The Democrats eat more slowly, thus insuring an ongoing supply of "food," i.e. the wealth generated by the working class. The Republicans are conviced that Jeebus is going to send another giant meteor, and figure, "What's the point in leftovers?" We need more and better alternatives.