I say no, I am not sure about capital punishment, and he would be mroe useful alive. He appears to be sorry for what he has done, and he could be used to lessen gang violence.

Your thoughts?

Deserves it! I daresay he does.
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life.
Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.
For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
--Gandalf the Grey, JRR Tolkien

Williams was convicted on the testimony of a jailhouse snitch, who was not allowed to be cross-examined by William's lawyers, who was given his walking papers for his effort, and ballistics evidence that can only be inconclusive. Weapon identification through ballistics is based on the striations left on a bullet by the chamber and barrel from which it was fired. Like a signature. No such marks are left on shotgun pellets. The snitch is, I believe, currently incarcerated in Canada, charged with murder during armed robbery. Arnold is clearly convinced that clemency would not win him any new Democrat votes, but might cost him the nigger-hater vote, which he has firmly locked in.

I think that he is a political prisoner, the same as Mumia.

And, I'm anti-death penalty (as any civilized person should be ) so no, he shoulnd't die.

Of course he shouldn't have died. I don't believe in the death penalty at all, no matter what. But in this case in particular I feel it was wrong. I heard several people mention that he never apologized to the victims families. But he maintained until the moment he died that he was innocent. If he didn't do it, why should he apologize. I respect him, at least, for standing up for his convictions, even if he had to die for it.

Even if he deserves to die, doesn't mean the state ought to kill him.

There are lots of people who I think deserve to die, like the guy who cut me off on SR-503 yesterday. But I'm not going to kill him. And killing people in my name makes capital punishment my business.

So we kill people to teach them that killing is wrong?

Even in the Bible when Cain killed his brother Able, God marked Cain, but never put him to death for the murder of his brother.

We kill people for several reasons.

Most important, revenge.
We also kill as a form of deterrent.

We also kill for political reasons.

Do you really think killing as a deterrent works? Seriously? I'm pretty sure that it doesn't stop the people who actually have the nerve to commit a "death penalty" crime anyway. Jail and prison are supposed to be deterrents, but do they really work? (Not that I am in any way saying that we shouldn't have them) But most of the time if someone is actually willing to do a crime they (a) think they are "smart" enough to not get caught or ( b ) are willing to take the punishment because they did the crime or ( c ) aren't even smart enough to consider that they will be caught and punished.

Most (not all) murders are committed in passion, which obviously makes rational thinking fly out of the window. Methodically planned murders are generally committed when a plan for escape is already in place (no matter how faulty or stupid the plan may be), therefore the murder doesn't expect to get caught and certainly wasn't deterred by the fact that death could be the consequence for getting caught.

--Left

I wasn't posting an opinion.
I also will not!

It's quite unlike you, Leslie, to withold your opinion. An earlier post in which you quoted Gandalf seemed to imply that you oppose the death by judgement of this man. Now you clam up. What gives?

I object to the wording of the poll. I have no idea whether or not Tookie Williams deserved death, but I oppose the death penalty on principle, thus, I think it was wrong that he was executed.

He was nommited for both a Nobel Peace Prize and a Nobel Literature Award. That fact alone would deserve atleast a stay of evecution and a commute to life sentence.

Does the "strong" man show no compasstion even if he is guilty? Where is forgiveness?

]

The Gandolf quote refered to this.
A Jury and ultimately the Gov of Calif made that decision.


I am not 100% against the death penalty, as I have stated in other strings.

As I have stated before, if it were my child who was abducted,
taken out to the desert, raped and tortured for many hours,
then had their arms hacked off so that they might bleed to death,
there all alone in the desert, I would not question the rightness of the death penalty.

If that were my child, I'd likely want to kill the bastard myself!
And not waste even a moment concerned about the guilt of revenge.


I also believe that our system of justice is in serious need of a rebuild.
We have people in prison for decades for pot,
while a rapist might serve 4 years, and a killer might be out in 8.
(OJ didn't serve one day)

Death penalty? It's not simply black and white.

Sometimes? Absofuckinlutely!

Most times? No!

(Interesting that by far the majority of executed criminals are black)


Now, you may criticize my emotional response to the above mentioned case.
I consider myself as simply being realistic and honest about the fact of my humaness!

Read his terms of peace for the Bloods and Cribs.

http://tookie.com/protocol/table.of.contents.html

Many people may see that as nothing, but bringing peace the the largest gang rivalry is a feat in and of it's self.

Here's a question:

Would he have been given clemency if he was WHITE?

I think so. Killing white folks who were Nobel Peace nominees wouldn't look very good.

This is a tuf call> Ted Bundy was executed , no problem. White , rich, well-educated, good-looking and a mass murderer. He warned people about the perils of pornography before he died... but he was executed.

Then again, life sentence is the way I would rather go than eye for an eye . But the REAL problem is, life sentence doesn't REALLY mean life sentence.
That's the problem that is the real issue. Life sentence is a farce.

Somehow I don't think that Ted Bundy and Williams are in the same category.

If it were me?

No, I don't work that way.
Though I admit to noticing that he indeed was black, and this makes me a racist,
I don't make my personal judgements based on skin color. (because I'm not that stupid)
Being racist and being an ass hole are not the same thing,
though in todays world with a desire for simple answers, they are blended into one.

An ass hole, is an ass hole. Color has no bearing!

Ted Bundy killed cute white college girls.

No matter who you are, you are going down for killing the public T&A.

Does only killing 4 people make you a better person that someone who has killed 20?

Hard to say, really.

I think, in a way, killing 4 people does make you "less" evil than killing 20.

But its like Stalin said: "If you kill 10 people, its a tragedy, if you kill 1 million, its a statistic." so maybe if you kill lots and lots, you are just a politician.

wonder how many total people died from the actions of the gang that he started?

hundreds? thousands?

That is a good point , because his gang he started did kill many more people than he was convicted of doing with his own hand. Only Tookie didn't give his gang 501c3 tax exempt status. So what is the difference between the Crypts and the PNAC then? Just that the PNAC knew how to legally evade taxes ?

Technicaly He did not "start" the gang. The Avenue Babies stemed from the Avenue boys, at the time an older gang. Avenue babies turned into Avenue Cribs. I have no idea where crips came into play. Tookie joined the gang at at pivital time and took a leadership role at the age of 15.

What would you do being 15, living in the projects? Gangs are just a natural occurence to Capitalism.

See everything that is bad in the modern world is caused ether directly or indirectly by Capitalism.

The Crypts and PNAC sound the same (think tank? gang? if it walks like a duck...) Who are making "the orders" and who are doing "the jobs"?

Who are the Crypts? They Folk, PU, or neither?

The Crypts are a "Think tank"

What is the difference between a think tank and a gang?

The two largest gangs from the poor parts of LA are the Crypts and the Bloods.
These two gangs have spread and set up shop in most larger cities through out America.


Don't confuse them with gangs like Hells Angels.
The Angels are almost all white.
The Crypts and Bloods are both Black Gangs.

Wait, you mean there are NO Gangs in China, a country devoted to Communism?
Capitolism is about money.
Gangs are about POWER!


Capitalism creates Gangs.
Are Skin Heads about Money?

We are talking about a different type of gang. The moment you group them with Skin-heads, Yakuza (gangs for profit), and that matter you misunderstand their whole meaning of being.

Grown men group up together for money and power, little boys do not. You give a boy a reason for exsisting and he will give you what ever you desire. A sense of home and community that they do not get elsewhere.

What is the difference in a man who will die for America and a boy who will die for 5th street?

Again, Crypts is not the name of the gang that opposes the Bloods and Took was in. The Crips are what they are called, like Cripples, from a cane. or walking stick. They used to be called the Cribs, for a babies crib.

The gangs in a sense from China and the street gangs of America are two different things. The same word is used to describe them, but they are very different. Like the word love. DO you love your mate like you would your dog? No.

He shouldn't have been executed for the simple reason that capital punishment should not exist. That said, why is he more deserving to be spared than another? Because he wrote books and was nominated for a Nobel Prize? We execute juveniles and retarded people (sorry if that's not the politically correct term) for God's sake. Could not a mentally challenged individual be equally rehabilitated. Should he then die for his lack of literary skill and popularity?

I agree with all the above . Capital punishment should not exist. I think the most hold-outs for capital punishment only want it because life sentencing does not mean "life sentence". Government needs to reform life sentencing laws to really mean "in for life", or be up front about it and say a convicted murderer is only sentenced 10 to 20 or whatever. I believe people in society are afraid of mob bosses taking over their neighborhoods ( like PNAC took over DC...and then more ). Many citizens, rightfully so, do not trust the terminology "life sentence". And your statement about juveniles and mentally challenged getting executed, you are right on the mark there. If anyone should be spared in the current existing system , it should be the young and infirm. We do not let juveniles drink , smoke and vote, but they can be executed . We do not let the mentally challenged fully participate in society, but they can be executed. I agree that our focus should be to rid capital punishment altogether, but in the meantime I strongly suggest initially campaigning that the young and infirm be exempt NOW.

Do you really want to know how fucked up the Death Penalty system is?

Check out the story of Jesse Dewayne Jacobs, executed in Texas, even after the reall criminal was convicted and sentenced.

Another from the great state of Texas, is Randall Dale Adams. Who was forced to "confess" to a crime he didnt commite and even after the real criminal was caught and tried, they still killed him too.

What about Clarence Brandley who was killed in Texas, for believe it or not, being black in 1980. 1980? Seriously.

What about in 1997, Texas again, kills, but this time its was Terry Washington who had an IQ of 58 who did confess, but did not evenr understand what murder meant.

It was not until 2002, in Atkins v. Virginia, that the Supreme Court ruled 6 to 3 that executions of mentally retarded criminals is cruel and unusual punishment.

Just research this a little more and you will find out just how archaic our legal system is. This list goes on and on.

Just a little known fact, it cost less to house a criminal for a life sentence then to execute them. Funny, most of the cost is in the trial, because of all lthe crap that goes with a death penalty case.

I have learned the hard way that our nation is very archaic overall when it comes to mentally challenged and developmentally disabled persons. I'd be curious to know European nations stand on capital punishment regarding mentally challenged

Most democratic countries today have abolished the death penalty, such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, almost all of Europe and much of Latin America. Together 111 countries either do not have or do not use the death penalty

Obviously since most developed countries have no death penalty mental disability is not an issue.

America and a few asian countries arte the only modern countries that still use the Death Penalty.

What gets me is what where the other 3 people in the Atkins case thinking?

Sounds like a case of professional ignorance, so there is some hope if they just need to be enlightened . I hope it is not that those 3 simply lack compassion , which would be just plain vile .

To qualify the European situation, to be a member of hte EU, you cannot have the death penalty.

Portugal had to scrap the death penalty to join the EU.

Thankfully, my homeland also scrapped it before I was born.

State sanctioned murder is still murder.

Hell yeah, sactioned Murder is Murder. No matter any reason a death takes place, you have murdered their soul.

No I am not saying I would never bare the burden of murder on my shoulders. When it comes to the people I care about, you better believe I will murder, maim, torture, strave, beat, etc..., those who wish tresspass upon them.

Just dont denie that its murder. If death is absolute and a penalty is to teach, then how is the death penalty anything but murder? Its only lesson is to those still alive. Terror then?