I've been thinking a lot lately about the nature of modern democracy. And to me, it seems broken. I look at the selection of leaders in the past 25 years, and things are scary.

Take Canada for example. Since 1975 we have had:
Trudeau (L)
Clarke ©
Trudeau (L)
Mulroney ©
Cretien (L)
Martin (L)

(L) - Liberal
© - Conservative

Mostly Liberals, but looks can be deceiving. Trudeau was an excellent PM, but after him we have had poor PM's. Clarke was a conservative, and didn't last 6 months. Mulroney was a crazy conservative, and got Canada dragged into NAFTA (which has now cost us $4 billion US in softwood lumber alone). He also nearly destroyed the country with his anti-Quebec policies.

Cretien was a lame duck for 12 years, and did nothing to benefit Canada.

Martin is a conservative in Liberals clothing, and his gov't has been rocked with massive slush fund scandals.

Not an impressive lineup.

Next, the US:

Ford
Carter
Reagan
Bush
Clinton
Bush

Again, not a very impressive lineup. Carter was good, and Clinton was good for the economy (but not much else). Other than that, you have some very scary people there. Reagan was insane, Bush 1.0 was a warmonger and Bush 2.0 is a retarded monkey. I don't remember Ford .

In England:

Wilson
Callaghan
Thatcher
Major
Blair

I don't follow British politics too closely, but two names there jump out and scare the hell out of me. Thatcher and Blair. Thatcher was a neo-con cold warrior, and Blair is just as bad.

In Japan, we have had the SAME POLITICAL PARTY since the END OF WWII. The conservative LDP has run Japan since the end of WWII, non-stop. Now we have Koizumi, who changed the Japanese constitution to allow troops to go to Iraq (Japan is only allowed to have a "self defence force," not an army, and so cannot declare war on anybody). He is an idiot.

Lets look at Russia now. We have had Yeltsin and Putin. A drunk and an ex-KGB man (and an autocrat).

As a historian, I look back at the great leaders who have emerged in the past through democratic systems. Lincoln, Trudeau, Churchill, etc. We don't get any of those types of people anymore. We get rich businessmen who run countries like large companies with no care or concern for their citizens.

In closing, I would say that yes, democracy is broken. It has been taken away from the people, and handed to the rich.

So, how to solve this? I say using the internet. We should follow the model set by the Athenians many centuries ago. We should be allowed to vote on everything. With the internet, this is possible. When bills come up, we all should be able to log onto a site and vote on it. En masse, as an entire population. The time for MP's and MLA's (or senators and governers in the US) is past. 1 man cannot properly represent the needs/wants/desires/opinions/ideas of 50,000 in a fair way. Companies have too much say in the gov't, and if we all voted, it would resolve this.

Just my thoughts.

Sorry, but there's too much here I can't agree with.

You also didn't offer the truthful option,
that by it's nature, Democracy is a developing ideology.

This means that sometimes it's not very right.
But the process that is Democracy also allows for it to be corrected.



Pay attention over the next few years.
You'll see it correct it's self first hand.


Though I doubt you'll be satisfied. (you may not even see it)
You want Nirvana.

That will never happen,
at least, not until everyone shares your personal ideology.

I don't want nirvana. I want a system in place where the voice of the people is truly heard. Currently, this is the furthest thing we have.

For example, lets look at Pennsylvania. A bunch of neo-con's allowed intelligent design into the schools, DESPITE the fact that most people didn't want this at all. How do we know most people didn't want this? Those same people were voted out in the next election.

This may look like democracy correcting itself, but I disagree. How did these people get into office in the first place? They weren't honest in their campaigns, then once allowed into power, used thier own ideas instead of the people who put them their. This will continue indefinitly.

In Ontario we had the same problem. The current Liberal gov't was voted in on promises of environmental reform, no tax increases, and no changes to the healthcare system. This was their entire platform. When they were elected, the first three things done in office were a) allowing massive uban expansion near Toronto in an area that was designated "nature preserve. A massive tax hike and c) sever changes to the health care system, including user fees (something that Canadians have not had for 50 years.

We see the same everywhere. Maybe the system, at its very core, is self correcting, but I think that it has grown out of control. I mentioned in another thread that the intelligent people who frequent this forum should run for office in the USA. This was met with "its too expensive." Only the elite can be chosen to run. Democracy is supposed to mean "ruled by the people." We definitly don't rule.

Here's another piece of evidence telling of how broken down the system is. In Canada we use the "first across the gate" system of counting votes. Heres an example: A riding of 10,000 people vote in an election. 4,000 people vote Liberal, 3,000 vote NDP (socialist party) and 3,000 vote Conservative. Who wins the seat? The Liberal, BUT, he only got 40% of the vote. More than 60% of people DIDN'T want a liberal, but the liberal won it anyway. To me, this is broken.

One more example of some broken democracy in action (in Canada). The seats in parliament are broken up based on population (which, in some ways, makes sense, but has some serious problems). The drawback to this is that the only two places where votes matter are Ontario and Quebec (the two provinces with the most seats). As a result, most campaigning goes on only in these two provinces. I have a lot of family living in British Columbia (the furthest west province) who simply don't vote. Why? Due to time zone differences, votes in Ontario and Quebec are counted and finished before polling stops in BC, and the news will call the winner of the election, before most people even make it to the polls in BC!! Are their voices heard? Hardly.

Again, I don't wan a utopia. I want a system where the interests of the people are more equally shared. Perhaps switching to a proportional representation system would fix some of these problems, but maybe not. Japan has a hybrid seat / proportional system, and there are problems associated with that as well.

rcorporon, I agree with you 100%. I'm aware, however, that revolution would probably result in the same thing we have now, just a different head of the hydra, in time.

Money rules. They don't care what the people think.

The thing that really brought this home to me is some polling info. When the American people are polled, a majority nobody listens to emerges. 60% of Americans want a single-payer health system, have no problem with abortion, have no problem with gay marriage. Does that matter? No. The parties pitch their message to the left 20% and the right 20%. And we 60% in the middle don't count fer nuthin!

I at least wish the American government had the parliamentary 'no confidence vote' mechanism. I hope that would keep them on their toes better, unlike, for example, right now when Bush gets to be Prez another 3 years whether anyone likes it or not.

And I would LOVE to see W try to do the "Prime Minister's Questions" thing (UK)! I can't imagine him being able to pull that off at all!

This is my point!

In a country of roughly 300 million people, you are always gonna have a few million disenfranchised citizens!

Further I believe that Democracy offers by far the best opportunity
for the representation of the greatest percentage of people.


That said, yes, I fully believe the system today needs some tinkering.
It's supposed too!
That's built in!


Please show me one example of a successful communist or Marxist government
any time through out the entire history of human existance?



If you think American style Democracy is dead,
you forget the power of 300 million Americans
and what we can accomplish, when we decide too!

"Please show me one example of a successful communist or Marxist government
any time through out the entire history of human existance?" Sky


That would really depend on what you consider succesful, Sky.


"I've been thinking a lot lately about the nature of modern democracy. And to me, it seems broken. I look at the selection of leaders in the past 25 years, and things are scary."

There is no country on the face of this earth that follows true Demcracy. Most of the world follows a modern version of Fedalism.

But those two points aside, I agree with you. I think the answer lies in just leaving each other alone.

Why do we all need to have the same type of government? WHy must we all live under that same banner? If people would just not have the urge to CONTROL each other, we would not have all this bullshit that is collectively called Government.

I did say "American style Democracy"

There is no such thing as "American Demcracy".


Our government has always been a Federal Republic.

[Edit-Thought came affer post]

But I must cede that I do get your "point" about American Democracy and just because we disagre on alot of thing, I mean alot of things Sky, I think we agree on the points that matter when it comes to politics and on that note I stand at your side.

I must also admit my views are a' changing daily, with the help of You and Cat, so just give me a few years. Its hard coming out the Neo-COn egg and realizing all that "Warm" against the egg was bullshit so excuse me if I am questionable to anyone who says they have the "truth".

Again, I said "American Style Democracy!"

We are first and foremost a capitalist society. Both monied special interests and religion need to be removed from the system they are corrupting. Call it democracy, socialism, whatever; get the damn money out. Absolute power corrupts, and unlimited money is absolute power.

As I have said,
in a society of about 300 million people,
it's impossible to be completely unified.
(Unless you remove all rights and liberties and institute a dictator)

When I refer to American government as being a democracy,
I do mean generally. The specific type of government is highly debatable.

But, if what our government is, is broken, why do so many continue to emigrate here?
And I don't refer to the SW Border.

No one with a correctly working brain will tell you that America is perfect.
But what I will tell you, is that America offers the greatest altruistic possibility!

The very fact of your outrage concerning the war and the use of torture, the effects of the Pat Act, your defense of ANWR etc etc, only prove this potential! I mean, if no one cared, there would be nothing to complain about!

To this end, America needs US! America needs us to do exactly what American
style Democracy allows us to do.

To discuss, disagree and to make suggestions.
We STILL have the right to disagree with our nations leaders, and say so out loud!
We STILL have the right to run for public office, and to support those we like who do!
We STILL have the right to VOTE, and if it turns out that anyone is responsible for
the illegal rigging of ellections, THAT is STILL ILLEGAL,
and you can Bet those persons (if caught and found guilty) WILL DO JAIL TIME!
Because in the Democracy that is American, the rule of law still applies to all!

Yet another measure that American style Democracy works can be found in the many ways this administration has to do what they do in Secret, behind closed doors. This administration has taken Obfuscation to an art form. Why? To circumvent DEMOCRACY and the Democratic Rule of Law.


By all means excersize your political duty to protest the injustice you experience in your America.
Democracy not only makes it possible, Democracy depends on your protest for it to survive!
But when you protest, be sure of what it is you are protesting!
The system works, you know it, because you're able to protest it and to actively seek change!

To this, I venture that there has never been a Marxist gov't in human history.

Some of you may say "Waoh! What about the USSR and China?"

They are not Marxist. The USSR came close, but after Lenin died it stopped being Marxist. Trotsky outlines this in much of his writings, so I won't go into it here.

China has NEVER been Marxist, and I would argue that they are not even Communist.

Could it be that we live in a "somewhat representative federalist society"?

Could it be that in America we live in a "somewhat representative federalist society"?

I have never thought of China as communist.

The United States was meant, as conceived by it's architects, to be a limited democracy, in which wealthy property owners had the sole franchise on the vote. It was never meant to "work" the way we want it to. It was simply one more form of class oppression, and the flowery crap about the natural rights of all men was thrown in to raise an army. Of the poor and working class. Who were not to share in that franchise, but refused to take "no" for an answer. We are still trying to make adequate revision to addrees the rights of person vs. the rights of property.

I have been thinking about this thread all weekend, and after reading all of the ideas here, I still think that democracy is broken.

Our current democracies all represent what the ultimate evolution of democracy is. An non-caring public represented by a few rich old white guys who do nothing for the people and benefit only the rich and big business.

The system needs a severe overhaul.

Quite true Zooks, and thanks to the Liberal extreme that through the 50's were systematically removed from the American political system, continued positive changes have come nearly to a complete halt!

That doesn't mean the extreme Liberal factions can't once again find a comfortable home in this country.
And they will be back, once the extreme conservative factions have experienced the retribution that now seems to be building.


I am as positive as I can be about anything that I am not alone when I say,
I want to believe in America!
I want to be proud again!
I want the stated principles to be the reality, and not just window dressing!

I want America to be all that it can be, for EVERY American, and the world!


I am also positive that these things can be done!
I just don't know if they ever will be!



"You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one..."

I think our form of government does need a serious overhaul as well.

I agree that Government and Religion have no place together and I also feel that Capitalism should be seperated from Government aswell.

How about we ether clean this thread up or start a new one with some serious ideas and methods of achieving this goal of "For the People, by the People."

I want America to be what they're teaching my children it is, what I grew up thinking it was.

A noble place of justice, where the least is treated as well as the best. Where we all have equal opportunity. A nation that would always be the guys in the white hats. A government that actively seeks to improve the lives of the people. An open democratic place, a forum of ideas. A meritocracy.