I heard something interesting about the second option in the poll once.

(sarcasm)
"Abortion should be illegal in cases of rape or incest because those babies dont count as real people"

I found that interesting.

OMG

What?

Oh. My. God.

A terrible beginning, but they are still people.

I knew what OMG meant, I did not understand the meaning of your post thouhg. I tka eit yuor pro-life?

I believe the choice is up to the woman. I'm trying to say that the nature of one's conception cannot dehumanize one. One is still human.

Key word being "woman".
That alone should remove 50% of the argument!

I believe to question wether something is alive or not, when the objects ultimate outcome is life, is foolish.

I voted it be illegal at every instance. I believe it is murder. No matter how you word it, the fetus will be a child if left alone in the womb. Does the reason of conception really change the fact it will become a human?

You can try as you may to sway me, but you never will.

I do not think I am wise enough, nor do I believe any human is for that matter, to make judgment upon another Human for their actions.

I believe if I am trangressed upon, I have the right of defence, but I would not openly enoforce violence against someone unless they impossed such upon me.

I guess you can say I am a eye for a eye type person and I believe that how we live our lives will determine who we are.

So how would I even punish them for a crime like this? I think them living with the fact of what they did will haunt them will they lay down their heads at night is enough. Funny how at that moment our "sins" are displayed in full regata.

Ultimately, I am a man and I think anything that is related to a females body is their buisness, but dont blame me for my answer, you asked.

Posting to this thread, I feel as if I'm walking into a minefield...

I think that if a woman wants an abortion, she should be allowed to have one. Its her body, and a government (made up mostly of men) have no business to tell her otherwise.

Master, I've always been intrigued by people who are so anti-abortion. What about a situation where a father rapes his daughter, and she gets pregnant. Should she have to have the baby?

I think that logically as well, banning abortion simply leads to coat-hanger style back-alley abortions, which are just harmful.

EDIT - I asked Sky, not Master the question...

I look at the issue and among other aspects I feel this.

The idea of making abortion illegal is a moral issue.
It's about morality, and they want to legislate morality.
So what's next after this?
Does church attendance become manditory?
Do we jail, or exile anyone who does not claim to be a Christian?

Who's idea of Morality is the correct morality?
Does anyone in this country have the right to impose their morality on anyone?

This seems somewhat self-contradictory. It's "their business" and "living with the fact... is [punishment] enough..." but you still think it should be illegal? Why create a law without a penalty? Does it make you feel better?

Also, nobody on this thread has questioned that a fetus is alive. So, you're attacking a strawman that nobody here raised.

Murder, theft, rape, and most illegal acts are moral issues. I am pro-choice, but the enforcement of moral behavior is the whole point of any law.

Not entirely.

For instance,
Some laws are in place as a safety issue.
Some laws are in place for issues of economics.


When I refer to an issue of Morality,
I put abortion on the same level with Homosexuality.

Is it immoral to be gay?
Is it immoral to have an abortion?
Is it immoral to not go to church?

I do not see homosexuals as a crime at all and to compare that with abortion is like comparing football to finger painting. They are not even close.

Like I said before, this is how I feel. I didnt attack anyone position but did you expect everyone to agree with you? Amussing.

Yes, at the end of the day, I feel this is a matter for females to combat over. Like you have never had an opinion on something you had no control over?

Plus, my response has nothing to do with morality. I feel humans are too stupid to determine the fate of something like another human.

Also, morality is something invited by humans to explain their actions. I based my observation on nature with this issue. DO you see any animals that perform abortions?

And I do not go to church. I think organized religion has no true bearing on real religion.

Let me ask you this, if someone killed your son whould you kill them? My answer is Yes. I would and I would accept the fact that I commited murder and live with it or die, depending on the judgement of a human judge. Do I feel God will punish me? Dont be so foolish. My point is, it doesnt matter the reason, the end result is the same. Rather you run the ball to the goal or pass it, its still a touchdown. Both different paths, yet same end result. Does it change the long lasting effect? No.

On the talk of punishment, I believe its stupid that we have to make up dieties to punish us when we do something we all know is wrong. To fact we have to have laws demeans our species. Regardless of what we believe, we should still treat each other will honor and respect, especially those who can not protect themselves from the harsh reality of life.
If they are willing to live with the weight of their guilt, then so be. I am no mans judge, nor do I wish to be, but I am still human and have an opinion and it was asked.

I dont buy this argument.

Where gambling is unlawful it still exists, but the difference is, you can be shut down and have all your assets taken, and then go to prison.

What doctor would want to risk an unlicensed clinic? Sure, there might be one or two, but with the morning after pill and other forms of birth control, the number of abortions are already dropping....I dont think we would see a line in a back alley if they were ruled illegal. I do think we would see more adoptions and sex taken more seriously...

There is always someone willing to make a buck off someone elses hardship.
Always has been, always will be.


Furthermore, check your pre Roe v Wade abortion history!
Women died in the thousands from bad abortions!
That's not conjecture, it's documented fact!

the exact point of my post, that was then!

many alternatives exist now!

plus society accepts babies born to the unwed every day!

many in the past sought out back alley abortions out of shame, plus there were no morning after pills!

On top of that due to the fear of STDs there is less and less unprotected sex, resulting in less need for abortions!

I am pro-choice.

I simply dont buy the "back alley abortion" theory.

In nations where guns have been outlawed, crime goes way down, what about the "back alley guns?" The back alley abortion theory almost sounds like the NRA wrote it!

Sorry Rob, but on the other hand,
you're not female are you?
It's not your risk to take is it?

Should we make general murder legal, because if we dont it may lead to back alley murders?

Oh wait....

No, but if we made appendectomies illegall, it would undoubtedly lead to back alley appendectomies.

No? Are you saying there are no back alley murders?

My point is, it doesnt matter what is illegel, if its illegel, there will be a back alley practice of it. So using that as an arguement for it is rather pointless.

Come up with something else.

How about this?


If (and when they were) abortions were illegal, those for whom money is not an issue
can always find a legal place to get one. Fly over seas, or give a really good US abortionist a hefty bonus to do it and keep his mouth shut!

The poor women though, they as usual take it up the butt.
They don't have the money option.
They're the ones who can least afford to have the option removed from them,
the ones who's lives are most likely to be effected for the worse,
the ones who will seek out what ever gets the job done,
even if it puts their health at risk!


When you consider no more legal abortions,
just who do you think it will effect?

Which social class would you suggest carry yet another rich mans burdon?

Hey now wait a minute, when did this get turned around to I support Abortion being illegal?

I have fully admitted that I am not wise enough to have a final say on this. I am just saying my OPINION is that it is murder.

I see no difference between a woman who kills her children by drowning them for what ever reason and a woman who kills her fetus.

One is considered illegal and the other is not.

Why ask my opinion if you only planed to try and knock it down? I feel like I fell into a trap.

That is why I clearly indicated that I am pro-choice!

There are too many legitamite arguments in favor of pro-choice to waste time on the "back alley" fantasy!

I'm sure it wasn't deliberate.
Except that you do seem to set yourself up.



Question. at what point does it become a "fetus?"

Would what you stated change if you switched Fetus with Zygote?


Can you see how your statement implies you are either against abortion,
or that you don't mind killing children?

Maybe when you get pregnant you'll have a clearer perspective on the issue?

Good point Rob. Lets get past this whole back-alley thing.

This was that minefield I was talking about... I'm exiting stage left .

LOL

OK, here is something else. Your skin is made of living human cells. When you shower, millions of precious human cells in your skin are destroyed! THAT'S MURDER!

Do you want to have to go to a back alley to take a shower?

*yawns*

depends who will be there to wash my back!

I guess my thing is that OF COURSE it should always be legal, especially because of a few things Sky pointed out. Poor women and poor people in general carry the brunt of the burden in a lot of situations and this is a major one.

I am a seriously struggling single mother. And for whomever made the comment about unwed mothers being accepted, you clearly don't live in MS. I have paid for the choice I made to keep my son. I am happy, but it's not easy. And I am truly happy that I at least had the OPTION of getting an abortion, even though I didn't use it.

I have to wonder what's worse; having an abortion at a time when you cannot handle the responsibility or do not want the responsibility, and living with your decision. Or being forced into being a mother, and treating your child like a burden their whole life. I would have to say that I hope abortion is always an option. Men can have sex and walk away, never dealing with the consequences. (Which to me is having an abortion, because they "get rid of" the baby by never acknowledging it or helping the child's mother.) Women deserve the same choice.

(And yes, I am very aware that I have probably pissed a few people off by the men comment, but it's the truth. I know MANY women who's "baby's daddy" walked straight off and never once looked back. Doesn't mean all men do it, but they all have the option. No child grows inside of them, nothing ever "ties" them to a baby. They can ALWAYS walk away. A pregnant woman's only way to walk away is to have the abortion. Also, I do agree that adoption is an option, but it's not nearly the same as an abortion. Adoption doesn't allow you to decide what happens to your body, you still go through pregnancy and all that goes with it--morning sickness, stretch marks, social stigma, the whole nine yards--so it is an option, but it's not the same.)

--Left

Left,

I have said many times that it's my opinion the abortion issue is a women issue,
and men have no business imposing their views.

When men can get pregnant and have to live with their decisions and the child has to live with impact of a decision they did not make, then perhaps.

what about other women issues in the past?

the right to vote?

the right to equal pay?

the right to a workplace free of harassment?

This thread needs to be aborted.... in a back alley with a coat hanger if needed.

Abortion is one of those explosive issues... explosive in the same way 3 day old refried burritos can be "explosive."

A bunch of people with penises have no right to jabber on about what people with vaginas and uteruses should or should no do with them.

These were not strictly womens issues.
Men also vote, men also deserve fair pay, etc etc.

But only a woman can get pregnant, and suffer the consequences.

What about other women's issues? Like truly fair divorce settlements? Or the fact that the culture says stay-at-home moms are great, but they earn no Social Security retirement credits for those years, and divorce judges usually order her to go to work?!?!?

What about welfare moms who are now being ordered to get full-time jobs instead of part-time, so they can't be there when their kids get home from school. And other welfare moms whose children are small so they'll need full time day care if they have to work full time? Have you looked into the cost of day care lately? Locally, for 2 kids full time, it would be $720/month. (At minumum wage, that's 140 hours of work, just to pay the child care.)

Just read Ann Crittenden's The Price of Motherhood.

Welfare moms? Give me a break.

When my first wife died, and I was left as a single father of our son. I got $34.00 in food stamps and $340 total from the SSA. Not a month, total. Its not just a disparity towards women in welfare, in fact alot of times women did far better then myself in welfare. Single fathers who TAKE CARE of their kids get shit in the country, but to many people are too worried about the none paying fathers to give the real dad any credit.

If I had what a woman had, I would use it. So stop compling about woman having no rights.

Someone seems to have had a bad day.

I am not saying that the norm is not what she says, I am just tired of people "forgetting" about single dads. Its a sensitive issue for me.

tick...tick....tick...tick...

What's that noise?

Its this thread, about to explode.

Alrighty, perhaps I can be the one to light the fuse.

Master,


I am a single mother, my son's dad doesn't do shit. BUT I work MY ass off everyday to provide what my son needs. I have a college degree and right now am working a pathetic ass receptionist position because here in the south a MAN has a far better chance to get the "good" jobs (meaning anything that pays a living wage) than a woman. I am in the "lucky" position that I make too much money to qualify for any type of social welfare (pretty hillarious considering my salary, but that's another story). But the fact of the matter is that I use MY FUCKING BRAIN to get me around rather that "what a woman has", which I am going to assume you are referring to perhaps our breasts and our ability to manipulate men with our sexuality. Women ARE on an uneven playing field when compared to men, but I don't walk around gripping about, rather I try to effect change. But that's besides the point, when I hear a man say "quit gripping about it" it sends me into a near rage considering that when a man says that, they are usually talking about how very hard things are for them. Looks like perhaps you are the one who needs to quit gripping. Believe it or not, you do have the opportunity to earn more in your life than me, to get a job WITHOUT having to use "what they've got", to command more general respect because while you are a single dad (something that apparently you think is heroic, rather than your resposibility), you weren't a whore like me who got pregnant and didn't force the guy to commit to me in a loveless marriage , you are also someone who clearly thinks that entitles you to some sort of pedestal. The fact of the matter is that ever day FAR MORE WOMEN than MEN carry out their responsibility for taking care of children without trying to raise a flag that says "LOOK AT ME, I'M DOING MY JOB". Good, take care of your children, you should. Just like I should take care of mine. There is no prize for being a parent.

-Left

You really must admit, that's a pretty damn condescending statement, what ever way you mean it!
I think she has the right to talk about your advantage simply because you can stand up to pee!

Please. Dont talk to me like I am stupid and have no idea what a woman has or uses it. Since you seem to think I was talking in a sexual manner just shows what some consider their tools. You know what else a woman has? Two arms, two legs, a brain, two eyes, and a whole lot more.

When I made that post my whole intent did not fully come out. That point I ment to make is that everyone struggles at our level. None of us here are elite, wealthy, autocrats, yet we seem to whine like them. We of all people should know that no matter how hard or difficult our lives are, there are people out there we cant even dream of the life we live here and we take so much advantage of it and disregard our level of comfurt in life.

Also here in America the perception of what a man and woman are, are changing. Just look at public telvision and cable television. Most male characters are just above being legally retarded and the woman are over bearing and demading.

Women like to say they make less money then a men, but women on normal refuse to work over time, they refuse to work holidays. Buit a man will work on anyday, hell we even get yelled at for working TOO much. Now I am not saying this is how is should be, I am just saying this is how it is.

But to make your case for womens rights, based in an area of life where there are few men are (single parenting, welfare parenting, etc), and say because you get nothing, it must because you are a woman is not a winnable battle. Maybe if your arguement was based in the boardroom or work place or something related to a disparity of men and women I would heed your cry, but what you are complaining about that women do not get reasonable welfare is...NO ONE gets good welfare.

I think it's quite natural for men to feel put apon by American society today.
It's really hard sometimes!

One really easy example.
If I were to go into a playground and start playing with the kids, just because I like kids,
every mother there would immediately be on their cell phones calling the cops!
A woman playing the same role wouldn't gather hardly a second look, that is, if she were dressed and looked motherly.

Granted, most crimes against children are caused by men, cleary not all are!
So, why should I risk persecution simply because I smile at a kid while checking out canned peas at Safeway?

Stereo typing is a very mean reality of life.


The two of you could use a little empathy for the other side.
I am a man, and I have been in the situation you two discribe, without being a single dad.
Both of you have legitimate issues, while at the same time being self imposing.

Just because we are men, does not mean we are ass holes.
And just because you are women does not mean you're welfare whores!

Hey, I did not call her any names and I respect her very much.

This is just open debate and I think the spectaters are taking it harder then the people having the conversation.

At the end of the day, I am still a man and I will bend over backwards for my woman.

Sorry M&M, I didn't mean that to be personal.
Rather a gross generalization of the standard stereo types.

You are treating abortion like a moral issue, which is, of course, how it has been intentionally mislabelled by the core of the regressive right. In case nobody has noticed, the regressives are building a feudal society in which the poor will become the property of the wealthy, one more resource to be exploited. Just like 300, 400, 500 years ago. Poor and working class access to abortion means a smaller pool of people available as labor and cannon-fodder. Drives the price of slaves up. While they religious nuts are screaming about murdering little bitty babies, the very wealthy are concerned about keeping down the value of the lives of poor and working class people. The most exploitable commodity of the 21st century. It is also a wedge issue, and keeps people whose issues are generally more alike than different, from uniting in opposition to the plans of the imperialists.

First of all, I really meant nothing againt MasterMind. He and I have talked privately, and I really respect him and his ideas, even if I completely disagree. I can also completely sympathise with someone being a single parent, I know I am not the only one.

BUT I have to know, since you say that your comment wasn't about sexuality, what was it about?

-Left

That's a very good point Zooks, except most of page 2 of this thread has been about something else, not abortion.


I dare to say the thread at this moment is about
the stereo typical gender roles
and which is more negative and deserving a
pat on the back and a "poor baby" expression of support.


To this is would add.....


Mind your own fences
and let your neighbors mind theirs.

How your neighbors take care of their fencing
should have no bearing on how you manage yours!