Usually if i want to leave a forum, i just leave and never come back, but i will not do that here because this is for a different reason. Usually, i am spending too much time at a forum and then i just run off. However, i have a different problem this time. It doesn't feel like i can tell what is truth and what is lies anymore, from both sides. It feels like both sides believe what they are saying but the think that it is ok to lie to get what they want. Not saying that POAC is doing that . Right now i want to take a step back and figure out what i believe and not just go along with the crowd. Maybe our collective views are correct, maybe they are not. It would be nice to know that what i am arguing is right.

See you all around,

-Jesus-Jack.

Jack,

It's exceptionally healthy to recognise the need for balance and perspective.
Hopefully you'll be back in a few days.

Either way, it's been good having you around.


In every story there are three truths.

The truth on one side, the the truth on the other side,
and the truth someplace in between the two.

Here's one truth and only one truth you should remember.
Bush is a lying sack of crap!...and That is the crux of it all!!!!!!!!!!!



Good Luck

~Shears

Glad to hear somebody's taking some time to process all of this...there's a lot to think about. I'm afraid I'm a bit more like Ernest Borgnine in "The Viking". Gimme a sword and I'll be more than happy to jump into the pit. I'm old and know how I feel about this stuff. If you're not sure yet, question everything. If you are sure, question yourself.

After spending some time searching and reflecting, I have come up with Jack's Nine Truths.

1. Bush did not let 9/11 happen but his cabinet did. I am not saying that bush wouldn't have let it happened but there is one thing that keeps me from thinking that he personally had a hand in it. Look at the way he acted on 9/11. Look at the way he acted in the class room, looking completely afraid and unable to move, and then his reluctance to go back to Washington. All of my other views surrounding involving 9/11 remain the same, which would be similar to other people's here.

2. Bush did steal the 2004 election. However, I think that he did it differently then many of you think. I think that, despite voter suppression in Ohio, he would have won Ohio. However, I think that they pulled the same crap in Florida that they did in 2000. The reason why I believe all of this is because of the pre-election polls. Bush was winning in Ohio but Kerry was way ahead in Florida but then there was a turn around of about 7 points for Florida.

3. Liberals have problems. I think that there are a few things that liberals have to change. First, they need to stop acting like the world is ending. Yes, bush sucks but he isn't the devil in retard clothing. Second, while conservatives look at the world as being black and white, liberals look at the world as being idealistic. Not saying that they think that things perfect but they think that the world can be perfect, which it can't. You can't stop wars or poverty or crime or hunger 100%.

4. America has been in worse shape. I hear people complain that the economy is worse then it has ever been and that the civil rights situation is worse then it has ever been and the environment is in the worst shape it has ever been. No it isn't.

5. Not all Republicans are bad. Most of the law makers are but some are not. Just because someone is a member of the Republican Party, doesn't mean that they are evil. Plus, most republican voters are normal people just like you and me. They care about the same things and they want the same things. The only reason why they vote republican is that...

6. ...Democrats are pussies. They don't fight for anyone and they don't do anything. Not so much the local and state democrats but that is probably why they don't have problems getting elected. The democrats in the house and especially the senate don't do jack shit. They don't propose any laws or amendments. They just quietly bitch. Plus, their presidential candidates aren't much better.

7. Not all republican ideas are bad. Just because the republicans come up with an idea, doesn't mean that it is bad. For example, the republican cut funding to Amtrak. It is a money pit that and a piece of shit one at that. But you hear democrats in an uproar about it. Sometimes, it is ok to stray from the flock.

8. Liberal news sources distort too. Many times, they will take stories that aren't that bad, and blow them out of proportion. Be skeptical, even if they are on your side.

9. The Democrats will not retake congress in 2006. They will take democrats will make large gains but unless they organize, propose new laws, and float good candidates, they will not retake either house.

UNPLUGGING IS REQUIRED!!!! Helps ya keep your sanity

Im leaving next wed for a 2 week vaca on the rocky coast of Maine so I feel ya right now.

Jesus, on point 4, I don't think anyone but climatologists really have any idea how bad it really is, with regards to the environment. With regards to civil rights, and the economy, again, it would probably require an expert. I don't think civil rights are worse than they've ever been, by any stretch of the imagination. You guys have an incredibly open society, at least compared with elsewhere. Your economy is weak, but it's been weak for a while now, no reason to suppose it will collapse any time soon. Just so long as you keep investing in guns, you'll be OK.

Everything that you said is definately true, though. I thought you people were all about thinking for yourselves. If you need time away to do that, take it. I myself do not hold such pretensions.

Jack,


Generally when I refer to Bush, I mean Bush and Company. It's easier then being specific, though not very accurate. In the contect of this forum amd it's discussions, specifics are rarely that important.


I agree, but didn't personally cause 9/11. But he had hints it might happen! I point to the same 4 minutes with the kids as visual proof.


Bush didn't fix the elections either! But people who work for Bush did, even though he didn't specificially give the orders. I saw the film in which the guy in Ohio said the election was a done deal.


Yep! Liberals got big problems. That's a large part of what I have been rallying about! Unity, and with unity, unelect those who do not respond are we, the united, think they outta! I want Democrats will real conviction and courage! I want Democrats who if doing the right thing requires it, who aren't afraid to lose their job.
No you can't stop war, crime, poverty and sickness 100% But you can act like ya give a damn! You can reword the poor people in the same way tiy reward the rich. You can make equal time for athiests as you do for evangelicals. Being idealistic? That's a little bit black n white isn't it? I'm a progressive liberal, and I want to see my country TRY to do better. I want the US to lead by example!


Yes America has been in worse shape, and if we don't stop the neocons, the evangelicals and the bushites, it will be again!


Nope, not all Republicans are bad, and I have stated this many times! The poroblem is, the Republican party has been hijacked by the neocons. This not being simply my opinion. I have read many articles BY REPUBLICANS who claimed this to be a fact. Case in point was the Republican party in Montana who claimed the election of 2004 would be more about this hijacking, than defeating the Democrats!


By the same token that not all republicans are bad, neither are all Democrats!
I AM A PROGRESSIVE LIBERAL! Am I a bad guy? Am I a pussy? No, and neither are you! Many Democrats in Politics need to be replaced. These are not good Liberals.


I for one believe we need the mass transportation system. Unfortunately the Government runs Amtrack, need I say more? Go ask Union Pacific how to run a Railroad! No all republican Ideas are bad. Sorry Jack, but right now most are! That's because, as I have said, the Republican Party has been hijacked! Literally!


There is no such thing as a completely unbiased news source. Not humanly possible. The key here, is to be informed from many sources. Look, I can't stand the sight of Bush and hate listening to his speeches. But if I don't watch, i have to take someone elses word for what he said! We can all agree that Fox news is, well, GOP news.


Democrats might not retake Congress in 2006, but they WILL gain a few seats. This balance is extremely important! Because of the various committees within congress!
Here, from time to time, the balance with shift more than might be reflected in the house balance. Even so, I think you will be surprised just how much the Dems take back in 2006. EVEN MORE is the Dems can (for the love of god) Get their heads outta their ass's and NOT LET KERRY SPEAK FOR THEM!








The people of America, discounting the political extremes, the republicans and Democrats are not really all that different. I'd consider it very likely you might plop your self down at a breakfast bar in Kansas, sitting beside a farmer in his overalls and genuinely like the guy, completely forgetting the very idea that he's a registered Republican! No, people is people. What we need desperately, is once again, the ability to discuss the differing views, and be mature enough to come to the common truths between them.

Then again, that might be too idealistic!

A comment from Driftglass.......


Our collective toolbox is full of bright, shiny, clever devices, each possessed of merit and utility.
But if you want to open a can, there's really no substitute for a good old-fashioned can-opener.
And if you want to knock down the grotesque, malevolent construct that calls itself the Republican Party,
it's gonna take the Democratic Party to do it.