Full Version: USA and the ICC
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please see this first J
Oh darn. I was hoping we would get some reasoning on this.
well Dori, at least we have consensus - 100% !!
I should start a new poll asking
"Do you know what the Rome Statute of the ICC is?"
or better
"Do you know what ICC stands for??"
or perhaps
"good morning boys and girls, can you spell International Criminal Court??"
Sometimes, I think I'm better off talking with the goddamn birds ! Speaking of which.....an Elster came up to me the other day and asked "how long are you fools gonna put up with this shit?"....."like, you're the laughing stock of Eslterville.....crock crock crock!" That teed me off. I looked him straight in the eye and said "bird, why the f*ck do you guys always have to shit on my strawberrys ?"....to which he replied "what the f*ck are we birds supposed to do? The Bushes are too far away....besides, that'd be a waiste of good guano!"
Eslter
I should start a new poll asking
"Do you know what the Rome Statute of the ICC is?"
or better
"Do you know what ICC stands for??"
or perhaps
"good morning boys and girls, can you spell International Criminal Court??"
Sometimes, I think I'm better off talking with the goddamn birds ! Speaking of which.....an Elster came up to me the other day and asked "how long are you fools gonna put up with this shit?"....."like, you're the laughing stock of Eslterville.....crock crock crock!" That teed me off. I looked him straight in the eye and said "bird, why the f*ck do you guys always have to shit on my strawberrys ?"....to which he replied "what the f*ck are we birds supposed to do? The Bushes are too far away....besides, that'd be a waiste of good guano!"
Eslter
okay, mispelled the friggin bird's name : should be Elster, not Elvis...Elster....and Strawberries...geewiz spelling beez!
Well, a few minutes after that super-top-notch political conversation with the bird.... one of his buddies came to a flying halt on a nearby perch and said "hey Jayhawk, did you hear about the secret prisions?"....."secret prisons?" I said........"yeah, your country has been charged with maintaining an archipelago of prisons around the world, many of them secret prisons into which people are being literally disappeared and in some cases, at least, we (birds) know that they are being mistreated, abused, tortured and even killed," he said. "For f*cks sake man, uh, bird....uh whatever" I said......"now I know why the US won't sign on to the Rome Statute of the ICC."
Both birds fell over laughing......"the US and the ICC.....LOL, best one we've heard since Khan's Army was on the doorsteps of Vienna!".
Well, a few minutes after that super-top-notch political conversation with the bird.... one of his buddies came to a flying halt on a nearby perch and said "hey Jayhawk, did you hear about the secret prisions?"....."secret prisons?" I said........"yeah, your country has been charged with maintaining an archipelago of prisons around the world, many of them secret prisons into which people are being literally disappeared and in some cases, at least, we (birds) know that they are being mistreated, abused, tortured and even killed," he said. "For f*cks sake man, uh, bird....uh whatever" I said......"now I know why the US won't sign on to the Rome Statute of the ICC."
Both birds fell over laughing......"the US and the ICC.....LOL, best one we've heard since Khan's Army was on the doorsteps of Vienna!".
Love the Elster, he is smarter than most people.
I have a flock of crows that would be only too happy to crap on the Bushes! They could do a wonderful job!
I have no idea why people are not aware of the ICC. It sure has been on my mind for a long, long time now. Maybe for the same reason they are not aware of anything that goes on in our government?
Do you suppose the Germans would have offered Hitler up before he destroyed everything in his power to destroy? Are we really different or as I have feared for a long time now, are we following in the Nazis footsteps?
I have a flock of crows that would be only too happy to crap on the Bushes! They could do a wonderful job!
I have no idea why people are not aware of the ICC. It sure has been on my mind for a long, long time now. Maybe for the same reason they are not aware of anything that goes on in our government?
Do you suppose the Germans would have offered Hitler up before he destroyed everything in his power to destroy? Are we really different or as I have feared for a long time now, are we following in the Nazis footsteps?
| QUOTE (dori @ Thursday, 9 June 2005, 9:22 am) |
| Maybe for the same reason they are not aware of anything that goes on in our government? Do you suppose the Germans would have offered Hitler up before he destroyed everything in his power to destroy? Are we really different or as I have feared for a long time now, are we following in the Nazis footsteps? |
I dunno dori. I guess if our Government says it's no good for us then we just have to believe them. They are after all.....well educated men and women with a lot more knowledge of what's going on in the world than what we have. We should probably follow the majority and just do our jobs and let the politicians do their jobs. (I also have a bit of waterfront property in Florida if you are interested)
The Germans simply adored Adolf during his first years. (anyone object to this....shoot me down) This is not the case with Dubya.
Americans are different as far as I can tell. You can never ever get all of America to pull in one direction at the same time. Germans seem to be more "collective".....(again, shoot me down meine deutsche Freunde falls ich hier luege o. etwas zu viel erfinde) that is......give them a goal and the tools and the overwhelming majority will make the impossible possible. Fads, things that are "in" usually come over in huge waves in Germany. If it's in to wear a coonskin cap, suddenly you'll see them popping up all over the place.....for a while. I believe this is a positive trait, one that made the re-building post WWII possible.
Are we Americans (still includes moi) following in the Nazi's footsteps ? No, definately no. We are following in the Nazi's Victims footsteps. We dissidents, that is. The people of America are following in the German people's footsteps in so much as we (Americans) are letting fascism grow to a point where we can no longer do anything against it ......it's probably too late. But not being one to give up until the game is over, I would like to think there is still time to change the road we're on.
J
I see signs of hope.....and then they are dashed. Hope...despair. I feel like a yo-yo.
I watched as the German people worshiped Hitler. I saw him growing in power. It scared the heck out of me, and I am watching with the same feeling agian.
There were decent people who worked against Hitler, there are decent people working against the power of Bush. I hope we can do a better job than was done in the 1930s.
I will grasp at any straw but the stress just continues to grow.
I watched as the German people worshiped Hitler. I saw him growing in power. It scared the heck out of me, and I am watching with the same feeling agian.
There were decent people who worked against Hitler, there are decent people working against the power of Bush. I hope we can do a better job than was done in the 1930s.
I will grasp at any straw but the stress just continues to grow.
same here
Oh my. I was watching from a newsreal theater in beautiful downtown Buffalo.
One whole hour of newsreels, we had our own propaganda machines in those days. But Hitler was always a central part of the hour, and it always showed him being adored in small groups or en masse, and the wonderful youth programs where children learned how to be good Nazis. The chill of war was always with us, just as the chill of disaster is with us today.
That forboding feeling that makes us want to fight the people who have taken over our country.
One whole hour of newsreels, we had our own propaganda machines in those days. But Hitler was always a central part of the hour, and it always showed him being adored in small groups or en masse, and the wonderful youth programs where children learned how to be good Nazis. The chill of war was always with us, just as the chill of disaster is with us today.
That forboding feeling that makes us want to fight the people who have taken over our country.
I'm having to re-read and review everything I can about Hitler and that period in hope I can better understand what's now happening. The one super-large item I found was the Reichstagsfeuer and 9/11. Both events were used to advance the empowerment of fascsim. Staged or not, both events were used.
Back to the ICC, the whole idea of the (Nuremburg) trials was to punish the Nazis for commiting genocide and crimes against humanity - to make them accountable.
What ever happened to the US position on these things ? Now that the US can be tried and found guilty of similar acts, we refuse to be held responsible.
This is sooo obvious to the rest of the world. But American leaders couldn't care less what the rest of the world thinks. This is a huge mistake. It's actually only a matter of time, and I'm sorry to say, a long list of further atrocities until it comes to an end. But one day, mark my word, one day America will have to pay. ICC or no ICC. The tab will be run up pretty high by then. As is with the peoples of Germany, the real criminals will be too old or will have passed on by the time judgement day comes....but the people, the next generations of Americans, the ones who had absolutely nothing to do with it all in the first place....they must carry the burden. In the meantime, I for one will NOT stand by and watch this happen. Let MY words be recorded for future reference. Let it be known to all that I spoke out against the development as the Scholls and countless less well known others did in their own time. I could turn my back on America. I could remain silent and not get invloved. I could stand by and watch my Muslim friends be hunted down and persecuted for believing in Mohammed and Allah. But could I still live with myself if I did ? It would be a most miserable life.
This Poll has been viewed many times but only a few have voted. If it is a lack of knowledge of the ICC, then let us educate. If it is apethy, then let us explain the importance. Impeaching Bush is a nice thought. Electing a Democratic President is a nice thought. But to continue living outside of international laws is absolutely inacceptable for a country which claims to be the best, the freeest, the most liberal and just. I believe it is called two-faced, immoral, unprincipled or even fallacious. If America were what I used to think it was, she would have been amongst the first to sign and ratify the Rome Statute. I was wrong. I was young and naiive. At least we have the possibility of learning whilst we grow old. J
Back to the ICC, the whole idea of the (Nuremburg) trials was to punish the Nazis for commiting genocide and crimes against humanity - to make them accountable.
What ever happened to the US position on these things ? Now that the US can be tried and found guilty of similar acts, we refuse to be held responsible.
This is sooo obvious to the rest of the world. But American leaders couldn't care less what the rest of the world thinks. This is a huge mistake. It's actually only a matter of time, and I'm sorry to say, a long list of further atrocities until it comes to an end. But one day, mark my word, one day America will have to pay. ICC or no ICC. The tab will be run up pretty high by then. As is with the peoples of Germany, the real criminals will be too old or will have passed on by the time judgement day comes....but the people, the next generations of Americans, the ones who had absolutely nothing to do with it all in the first place....they must carry the burden. In the meantime, I for one will NOT stand by and watch this happen. Let MY words be recorded for future reference. Let it be known to all that I spoke out against the development as the Scholls and countless less well known others did in their own time. I could turn my back on America. I could remain silent and not get invloved. I could stand by and watch my Muslim friends be hunted down and persecuted for believing in Mohammed and Allah. But could I still live with myself if I did ? It would be a most miserable life.
This Poll has been viewed many times but only a few have voted. If it is a lack of knowledge of the ICC, then let us educate. If it is apethy, then let us explain the importance. Impeaching Bush is a nice thought. Electing a Democratic President is a nice thought. But to continue living outside of international laws is absolutely inacceptable for a country which claims to be the best, the freeest, the most liberal and just. I believe it is called two-faced, immoral, unprincipled or even fallacious. If America were what I used to think it was, she would have been amongst the first to sign and ratify the Rome Statute. I was wrong. I was young and naiive. At least we have the possibility of learning whilst we grow old. J
| QUOTE |
| This Poll has been viewed many times but only a few have voted. If it is a lack of knowledge of the ICC, then let us educate. If it is apethy, then let us explain the importance. Impeaching Bush is a nice thought. Electing a Democratic President is a nice thought. But to continue living outside of international laws is absolutely inacceptable for a country which claims to be the best, the freeest, the most liberal and just. I believe it is called two-faced, immoral, unprincipled or even fallacious. If America were what I used to think it was, she would have been amongst the first to sign and ratify the Rome Statute. I was wrong. I was young and naiive. At least we have the possibility of learning whilst we grow old. J |
Yes, it is strange that people have not taken the poll. Surely there was no secret when Bush emphatically declared we are not signing the ICC. No need to I believe he said. Have to protect our troops. Other nations would use it against us.
Gee, do you think?
We will never have Bush and the cronies face a darn thing in this country. ONLY the ICC can do anything about this blot on our once beautiful country. It is essential people think ICC, ICC, ICC, ICC, ICC, ICC, ICC, ICC, ICC...........
| QUOTE (dori @ Thursday, 9 June 2005, 5:12 pm) |
| Other nations would use it against us. Gee, do you think? |
Well well. Time to educate. That is, you and me have our work cut out for us. Would other nations use the ICC against US ?? The innocent have nothing to fear.
**
MYTH: The Court will take on politically motivated cases against U.S. citizens or soldiers.
FACT: Numerous safeguards in the ICC treaty will prevent frivolous or politically motivated cases. First, the ICC will cover only the most egregious international crimes, defined in ways corresponding closely to the U.S. Code of Military Justice. It will have no jurisdiction over crimes committed on U.S. soil unless the United States ratifies its treaty.
Second, the Prosecutor will not be able to begin an investigation without authorization from a Pre-Trial Chamber of Judges. At that point, if a U.S. citizen were accused of a crime, the court's judges would be obliged, upon request, to defer to U.S. justice, standing down for at least six months while the United States pursued its own investigation and, if appropriate, prosecution. After that period, the judges would be able to authorize investigations only if they decided that the U.S. judicial system was willfully obstructing justice - a very high threshold. Any indictment would also require confirmation by a Pre-Trial Chamber of judges.
Finally, the U.N. Security Council can adopt a resolution suspending the ICC from investigating or prosecuting any case.
For more info see Myths and Facts About the International Criminal Court .
At least I'm not alone with my wild ideas concerning the US and the ICC. Thanks for your support dori.
There's an international coalition for the ICC - thank heavens (and Wotan :-) - on the web under http://www.iccnow.org/
where we can monitor progress as it happens. Denmark ratified the Agreement on Privileges and Immunities last week. The Domenican Republic became the 99th (!!) State Party in May. It may be useful for us to monitor the developments as the come along so as to be reminded we are not alone with this far-fetched idea that very few are willing to accept. Oh, and I just saw the CICC - Coalition for the International Criminal Court has ideas about how we can get (more) involved .
If I recall correctly, one long tall University Professor of Ethics at CU in Boulder Colorado said in one of his books with a title something to the extent of Roosting Chickens or something like that.........if you really really want to make a difference, do all you can to increase the international pressure on the USA to join the ICC. Most anything else you can do will by far not be as effective as this. It may do your ego some good to vote for Hillary or go to a critical mass meeting or to write to your Congressperson, what the heck ? Stroke the ego, exchange ideas with other people on various web forums. Do what ya need to do but for best results, plea for the ratification of the Rome Statute of the ICC by the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA again and again and again until it happens. Think about it, alone the fear factor could compell a rogue nation to chill out a bit. After all, nobody wants to have to stand trial in Den Hague for a War Crime, right ? Not mentioning Genocide on the indigenous over the past 500 years. The ICC would have no effect on that due to the fact the court has no jurisdiction over crimes committed prior to 1 July, 2002 . Columbus got lost long before that. Wounded Knee was long before that. The Trail of Tears was long before....and so on. Why am I so keen on mentioning the genocidal killing of american "Indians" you may ask. The answer is simple. If we don't admit such past crimes, although there has been no real end to the genocide, how can we expect to live up to what we expect of others ? How could the US join forces to try and persecute Nazi War Criminals without having first admitted to crimes perpetrated by ourselves in the past ? Where does the USA get off pointing the finger at Germany for commiting Genocide when the US had committed genocide on the "Indian" long before Adolf Hitler was even born ? Did you know Hitler looked to the US treatment of the idigenous - the corralling of "Indians" onto Reservations - as a role model .....an idea of how to deal with what he considered to be the "Jewish Problem" ?? True. Imagine Adi wearing a Cowboy Hat ! He probably would have enjoyed owning a Ranch in Texas.....riding all along the borderline, mile after mile. Mile after mile.
We will pay. US power and prestige is balanced at the precipice of an abyss. We will be a third rate power and we WILL be held to account for acts of torture and human rights violations. Let me tell you why:
There is an impending economic collapse, aided by a bloated military budget (have we learned nothing from the collapse of empires from time immemorial, up to and including the Soviet Union, pushed over the edge by overspending on the military and an obsession with secrecy). We are losing economic power at the same time there is increasing economic power of other nations, such as the PacRim Countries, India and China, along with European nations, all of which seem to take science, education and innovation far more seriously than the reactionary ripoff Republicans, the Chimpy regime, and the bloated salary, paper entrepreneur CEO set currently running Corporate America. The shrinkage and possible collapse of GM is the first indication of the coming freefall of American big business. The end of cheap oil will be the final millstone around our collective necks.
As we in the US sink into economic decline, and the chips are called in by China, who holds a significant share of our increasing debt, we will lose our ability to finance the "best military in the world". Our vaunted military hardware will fall into disuse and disrepair as did the Gorky Russian submarine that sank several years ago. Then, we will be brought to account for our crimes, whether or not we sign on with the ICC; although I believe it will be far worse for us if we dont.
There is an impending economic collapse, aided by a bloated military budget (have we learned nothing from the collapse of empires from time immemorial, up to and including the Soviet Union, pushed over the edge by overspending on the military and an obsession with secrecy). We are losing economic power at the same time there is increasing economic power of other nations, such as the PacRim Countries, India and China, along with European nations, all of which seem to take science, education and innovation far more seriously than the reactionary ripoff Republicans, the Chimpy regime, and the bloated salary, paper entrepreneur CEO set currently running Corporate America. The shrinkage and possible collapse of GM is the first indication of the coming freefall of American big business. The end of cheap oil will be the final millstone around our collective necks.
As we in the US sink into economic decline, and the chips are called in by China, who holds a significant share of our increasing debt, we will lose our ability to finance the "best military in the world". Our vaunted military hardware will fall into disuse and disrepair as did the Gorky Russian submarine that sank several years ago. Then, we will be brought to account for our crimes, whether or not we sign on with the ICC; although I believe it will be far worse for us if we dont.
| QUOTE (Idealist Cynic @ Friday, 10 June 2005, 2:43 pm) |
| We will pay. US power and prestige is balanced at the precipice of an abyss. We will be a third rate power and we WILL be held to account for acts of torture and human rights violations. Let me tell you why: There is an impending economic collapse, aided by a bloated military budget (have we learned nothing from the collapse of empires from time immemorial, up to and including the Soviet Union, pushed over the edge by overspending on the military and an obsession with secrecy). We are losing economic power at the same time there is increasing economic power of other nations, such as the PacRim Countries, India and China, along with European nations, all of which seem to take science, education and innovation far more seriously than the reactionary ripoff Republicans, the Chimpy regime, and the bloated salary, paper entrepreneur CEO set currently running Corporate America. The shrinkage and possible collapse of GM is the first indication of the coming freefall of American big business. The end of cheap oil will be the final millstone around our collective necks. As we in the US sink into economic decline, and the chips are called in by China, who holds a significant share of our increasing debt, we will lose our ability to finance the "best military in the world". Our vaunted military hardware will fall into disuse and disrepair as did the Gorky Russian submarine that sank several years ago. Then, we will be brought to account for our crimes, whether or not we sign on with the ICC; although I believe it will be far worse for us if we dont. |
you're right again my friend. Having said that....BUMP
has anything changed ? I've given up on the ICC.
Yes, but their PNAC plant , Bolton, will never do it 
QUOTE(yankhadenuf @ Saturday, 27 May 2006, 11:09 am) [snapback]59543[/snapback]
Yes, but their PNAC plant , Bolton, will never do it
Remember, Bolton is temporary.
He was never approved by congress, Bush appointed him during recess.
I believe he has until the end of the year.
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Saturday, 27 May 2006, 12:23 pm) [snapback]59547[/snapback]
Remember, Bolton is temporary.
He was never approved by congress, Bush appointed him during recess.
I believe he has until the end of the year.
I hope you are right sky... and then Congress can throw the bum out?QUOTE(yankhadenuf @ Saturday, 27 May 2006, 11:33 am) [snapback]59552[/snapback]
I hope you are right sky... and then Congress can throw the bum out?Nope, his term will simply expire.
Bolton was never confirmed by the congress, so while on congressional recess,
Bush went around them and appointed him.
The draw back for Bush was that this appointment would only last for a few months, (13 or 14 i think)
which gave some indication that the Neo-cons expected their program to be in full swing by now.
Which of course, it is not!
Wikipedia
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Saturday, 27 May 2006, 12:54 pm) [snapback]59554[/snapback]
Nope, his term will simply expire.
Bolton was never confirmed by the congress, so while on congressional recess,
Bush went around them and appointed him.
The draw back for Bush was that this appointment would only last for a few months, (13 or 14 i think)
which gave some indication that the Neo-cons expected their program to be in full swing by now.
Which of course, it is not!
Wikipedia
Yes, I was aware that he was never confirmed, but I squirmed a little when I read this part in Wikipedia
:"...On August 1, 2005, President Bush installed Bolton as Ambassador to the UN via recess appointment. The recess appointment will last until a new Congress convenes in January 2007, or until Bolton is renominated and confirmed, whichever comes first..."
I'm honored and flattered to see this old bone has been discovered and once again brought to light.
Bolton is one factor. The ICC another. With or without the USA being signatory to the Rome Statute, War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity can be tried at the ICC in Den Hague....unless, and this is a big fat but, unless the USA (in this case) tries the accused themselves. Ever heard of a Kangaroo Court ? If it ever ever came that far, there would be one big Kangaroo Court set up in the USA. I've really lost hope in the ICC, despite what certain scholars had to say about its importance....one year ago (Prof. Ward Churchill e.g.)
If one of you could assist in restoring that hope, it would be great.
Bolton is one factor. The ICC another. With or without the USA being signatory to the Rome Statute, War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity can be tried at the ICC in Den Hague....unless, and this is a big fat but, unless the USA (in this case) tries the accused themselves. Ever heard of a Kangaroo Court ? If it ever ever came that far, there would be one big Kangaroo Court set up in the USA. I've really lost hope in the ICC, despite what certain scholars had to say about its importance....one year ago (Prof. Ward Churchill e.g.)
If one of you could assist in restoring that hope, it would be great.
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