I don't know where to put this but this forum seems as good a place as any. Something that is bothering me about this Presidential campaign, where neither candidate is progressive or desirable (IMO), is the obvious bias shown by political boards simply based on the political party of the candidates. To me, there are good and bad qualities about both candidates. One side is not all good and one side is not all bad. But when do you think you would ever see someone saying something good about McCain on this board, no matter what he said or did? Likewise, when would someone (other than me) really criticize Obama? This board is predisposed to only saying good things about Obama and to downplay anything he does that, if the other candidate did it, would be totally condemned. This is done because he is a Democrat. Likewise, the board is predisposed to condemning McCain on all sides simply because he is a Republican. I don't like this obvious bias. What I would much rather see is an effort to expose the truth about each candidate, good or bad, and let people decide what they agreed with, instead of the obvious bias to beat down McCain and to build up Obama simply due to party affiliation. This is not seeking truth. This is an advertising campaign, and I have seen this more and more and it bothers me in seeing it. In this election, our choice is not clear, and I do not think we should automatically condemn McCain simply because he is a Republican and we hate Republicans. Just because George W Bush has been the worst President in recent US history does not mean McCain will be the same way. It is not about the political party. It is about the person.

I don't expect I will get a lot of agreement, if any, here for this opinion, but I thought it needed to be said.

First of all, to respond fully to your post would require a complete indexing to posts throughout the history of the POAC including it's archives or time lines and anti-spin. Everything you mention has been discussed extensively.

Second of all, you make several basic assumptions that you don't have the right to make.
Example from another thread: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/bb/index...c=21072&hl=
Though I give you credit for at least attempting to (so far) keep the discussion from becoming something personal. And for that I will say thank you.

The agenda AFW, is to remove the Neo-con dominated Republicans from positions of power.
The agenda, is to BEGIN a process of recovery and rebuilding that MUST be done before we can jump into the progressive swimming pool.
The agenda is not about political affiliations. The Agenda is about doing what it takes to assist the process of change.

Like you, I also want a progressive in the white house, and every seat in congress and every governorship. However, given the mood of the country, that underlying, seething ugliness that the Neo-con republicans have successfully put into play over the last decade or so, an artifact that colors virtually every aspect of society from the churches, to the News Media, to the Movies, to the Sunday comics, this is what people think because for so long now that's what the propaganda has taught us.

There are a few of us who have seen this supposed truth for what it really is. We are working, actively working to bring about change and help steer the country into progressive waters. However, none of us are foolish enough to think this can happen in a few weeks, or single presidential term. It requires a process. Why? Look at Dennis Kucinich. Some one most all of us consider to be ideal. (did you know that until he decided to run for office that he was anti-abortion?) How for did his campaign get? He was never considered a possible. Now ask yourself why? Because the country isn't ready for a Dennis yet. The country must first go through a process. On the bright side, that process is already well under way. Consider the mood a week after GWB's second inauguration. How much things have changed since then. Consider how things changed November of 06. That was the turning point.

Yes, it's still an uphill fight. Yes, there's still lot's we don't like or agree with. Yes there are people in politics, on BOTH sides of the isle that don't seem to be working for the people. But it's getting better.

Is Barrack the messiah simply because he's a democrat? Nope! He's far from perfect IMO. But, he's not all bad either.
Would I equally support Hillary had she won? Eventually. Because the larger agenda would demand it.
Am I patient enough to assist in a long term process toward a change I might someday actually like?

Watch me!

What a surprising thread!
Both posts articulate and clear and (happily) free of finger pointing or oneupmanship. There is hope for us all!

Sky, you put it well. - Well enough to pursued me of your argument, and I'm becoming more and more of an anarchist/hippie-communist every day!

And heres the kicker, I'm a Democrat too, but I don't want things to be as progressive as Sky, and I was not impressed with Kucinich.

That's how it is supposed to work though, we have enough in common that we are willing to share a party and some basic ideas to try to move the nation in a better direction.

Good Post ATF and Sky! I concur what Karen said, Balanced and without name calling! I'm a democrat but I'm really more of a Socialist as far as my deeper political feelings go. If there was a socialist party that was free from the old guard of the communist Party, I would more than likely register as a member of that Party. But right now I believe in working in a coalition with the democratic party to keep the Neo-con's out of Office.

I'm sorry to say the only thing I can say that is good about McCain is his Military service to our country. Outside of that he has traded his maverick background from his run against GWB, to becoming GWB this time around. I could never support him. He's anti-gay, anti-choice,Pro War, Pro big business, wants to dismantle the government in lock step with the conservative agenda, has a piss poor attitude towards women, anti veteran, anti-minority (voted against making MLK a national holiday), in short, everything he stands for is what I fight against!

Fair enough. I was a registered independent up until Washington did away with partisan registrations. I always thought I was too smart to fall into straight party line thinking. Then I voted for the first time in 1998, and there wasn't a single republican on the ticket who I could support. There has hardly been a single Republican who wasn't batsh*t crazy. I still go through the voter's pamphlet and make my decision, but I frequently find myself assuming that just because someone is a Republican, everything they say is a lie.

More broadly, the Republican Party is openly at war with liberalism. Their economic policies are manifestly destructive to the bottom 75%. There's not really any possibility of reconciliation there.

And on the other hand, to the extent that Democrats disappoint me, it's usually by being too much like the Republicans. Weakness, vanity, or laziness, as a general thing, as opposed to the standard Republican malice.

Now, John McCain personally. To the extent that he has established clear positions, they are virtually identical to Bush's. His position on immigration was identical, until he retracted it and made it tougher. He's voted with Bush 95% of the time last year, and 100% this year. The one difference is on torture. Can you believe that torture is actually an issue? And McCain refused to vote for a ban on torture, so it's not clear how deep his conviction is on that issue either. Bottom line: I see no reason to vote for McCain. The mainstream media will let him get away with even more than Bush did.



In theory, we elect a president that 51% of us don't hate. Regardless of the soundness of that theory, we don't each get to have our own president. And ultimately, even with a perfect electoral system, we'd have to end up electing some kind of a compromise candidate. That means nihilists like AFW, cranks like me, and socialists like Sky would end up being disappointed.

That's a fine post there Happy.


I might add though, that even though I am a Democratic Socialist at heart, I still do understand the compromise requirement and will sleep just fine even if i don't get things my way.


Again, that post is wonderful.
Thanks.