Given the massive wealth of information about government-corporate corruption that has come to light over the past few decades, why do we only talk about it? Why don't we prosecute someone?

Michael Moore is labeled a radical and a conspiracy theorist. But, that's just conservative spin and we all know it - even conservatives. The assertions he makes in numerous formats (not the least of which, "Fahrenheit 911")....are factual. They're not rumors.

The fact that Dick Cheney was CEO of Haliburton and VP of the USA about 20 seconds later, followed within the first year by a fraudulent war and massive Hailburton contracts, are simple facts. You learn the phrase "conflict of interest" in your freshman year of college (if not much earlier).

The World Bank and U.S. Treasury channel money to Bechtel and others, by laundering it thru bullshit "foreign aid" loans. We all know this.

The CIA and/or White House have orchestrated countless political assassinations and coups. We all know this. The entire world knows it.

My question is why someone - not just in a discussion board - doesn't pursue these things? It's naive. I know. The obvious answer is the massive power of the government and the deep pockets of the huge corporations. Blahblahblah.

But Big Tobacco came down. That was real.
The Iran-Contra scandal was publicly prosecuted.
Watergate.....Hell it's been done before! You CAN prosecute a president.

All of the stuff that even the most independant commentators, like Air America, etc, discuss are just garnish on the plate. They talk about catch-phrases like "tax cuts for the rich" and never really go any deeper. Everyone refers to it to the point that these situations are common knowledge. But still, they talk about "earmarks" and "who-voted-for-freaking-this-before-they-voted-for-freaking-that." All that crap is a waste of time and energy.

The answer isn't just: "Rupert Murdoch". Ted Turner is a liberal. What's his excuse?

It's like watching a bank get robbed, while hassling the crooked hot-dog vendor outside on the sidewalk.
.............And we all know it.

John Perkins spells out every detail of it - as an insider - in his book, "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". And the list of such PUBLICLY available information is well known.

If the GOP had the audacity to impeach a sitting president for getting a stinking BJ, how can these actual crimes just float on by? I seriously want to know.

It's probably just a stupid rant you've heard a thousand times. But still.....

Frustrating as hell isn't it!
Corruption. Special interest. Corporatisation of Government (Fascism). 'Impeachment is off the table'. Career politicians unwilling to rock the boat. Complicit media and opposition. Inciting fear in the populace. Criminalising decent....
And on it goes.

Frustrating as hell isn't it!

There are many great minds on this board who can explain all this much better than I can. Not that you'll feel any better for it, sorry!
Frustrating as hell isn't it!

when was the last time americans prosecuted a sitting upper-escheloon executive? Not impeached them in congress, but actually prosecuted? We haven't because we can't, and those who have left office have been pardoned before it was possible.

by the way, Perkins is brilliant...

i give him credit for my ability to actually see john edwards as a human being.

??????? Ya lost me!

Hell yes, it's frustrating. And I hate to sound like a child. But, still.......People stood up over Watergate and Iran-Contra, etc.

Why are today's Democrats such freaking sissies???

Well, I think he's a disgusting scumbag. And If I ever met him, I'd punch him in the neck. You can't be a career criminal and absolve youself by "feeling terrible" about it - as you continue to do it for years and years. And being a whistle-blower is good. But it's a minor step toward redemption. if Jeffrey Dahmer were alive and tried to help us prevent others from serial-killing, Jeffrey would still be a serial killer.

Anyhow, thank god for his book and what Perkins has done, later in life. It will help the rest of us try to somehow undo the damage that he and his ilk have wraught.

But, he's still a scumbag.

so he doesn't engender the concept that humans, as individuals, can wake up and expose the outright deception and evil they've perpetrated in an effort to reclaim the little bit of soul they continue to cling to? If he weren't to write his "confessions," how would you know to admonish him?

Are you so perfect, that you can claim that no one has the ability to challenge you on any past deed? Have you come out and admitted your wrongs, and tried to educate the world on how to avoid people like you being allowed to continue their mis-deeds?
who are you?

His books and speeches have allowed people to understand how the world works... RIGHT NOW. He explains things to people, in a manner that they can understand, so that the insidiousness of his previous career cannot continue any longer....

If you were given a free pass to priveledge, would you do the same?

Look at yourself long and hard.

Doesn't everyone do, to some extent, what he's done in the past? I know that i fight the inclination every day to give my morals to profit. He came out against this path, and has acceped what I'm sure is A LOT LESS MONEY to expose the demon he served.

Chiggity - check yourself, before you wreck yourself, there buddy.

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/6/5/john_..._secret_history

That's an excellent and complex truth you've pointed out, Seuss.

It raises some questions. One is, the tendency is to label people as sociopathic, and sociopaths can be seen as lacking certain human qualities which make it possible for them to do things that someone with those qualities might refrain from doing. Empathy is one that comes to mind. How does someone manage to come by empathy after living without it for years?

As I think about that, and even before I asked it, I have in mind such events as The Stanford Prison Experiment. Philip Zimbardo discusses that experiment and what he learned from it in his book: The Lucifer Affect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil.





What intrigues me about this issue is the effects on individuals in society of what I would call "institutionalism." And that's a topic in itself that feeds into the issues being raised, but also tangentially applies to other societal phenomenon of going along without speaking out, such as what happened during the build up of fascism in Germany and what led to the horrors of WWII.

I love the fact that in the intro to the first (Later, to edit... driving into a snowstorm can drive one to reconfigure their morals, ever so slightly - ...second)...chapter, the writing is blotted out by the guy's white shirt!

this is a running commentary, so give me a minute...

Seuss, take it easy there, pal.
The guy was a career criminal. Perpetrator of everything people like you and I despise most in the world. I accept his apology and I welcome his confessions and his present path. But, he knew the day he took the job what he was doing to impoverished people, without them even knowing it.

And NO, I would not throw my integrity in the toilet for a pile of money. Thanks for asking.

<<how to avoid people like you being allowed to continue their mis-deeds? >>
What in the hell are you talking about? People like me who are pissed off about people like him?

<<I know that i fight the inclination every day to give my morals to profit>>
Sounds like you should not let those books get to far out of arm's length.

You sound like a real prize hypocrite attacking me like that.

Is this how it's going to be? If so, I have a lot better things to do.

and there it lies...

anyone really feel like playing "kick the 'can'", anymore?

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/6/5/john_..._secret_history

-

Don't blame the whole community for the disagreement you have with one or two users here. There's a lot of people with a lot of different views.

...

-

Uh, I for one have deliberately left this thread alone.
However, Frog. If that's the way you gotta play it, too bad. Guess you didn't really wanna be here.



As to the grade school click bull shit. You are assuming based in information you do not have.
It's a good forum, even though none of us agree all the time. In fact, there are some I almost never agree with. Even so they still have good valid points, things to teach me, and a perspective that can help make me more able to see the truth.

Thanks Seuss.



This illustrates to me just how easily we identify with our ego roles, the reality of who we really are is condemned by our egos to play a part, or many parts. I wonder how much of what I identify as 'me' is an ego illusion?
Thanks for posting this, Ren. - I've read about the Stamford Prison Experiment in the past, but never really 'got it' until now. (This also ties in with my current reading on the nature of 'ego' - like pieces of a jigsaw! )



Thanks for stopping by. I'm just sorry you didn't see fit to give us a chance. How long did you give it before lumping the entire community into one category 'assholes'? Half a day?
You're not the only one who's disappointed!

I wasn't really being that big a dick, was I?
...or a hypocrite?


I mean, come on now, even if I had the power to do that, I wouldn't.

btw, here's more from perkins:
http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?Program...p;PlayMedia=Yes

I don't this so Seuss. I thought you're comments were challenging and interesting, though maybe a bit harsh for a newbe. But Frog's reaction was way OTT.

There are plenty of boards out there to explore, fab, so many boards, so little time...

I thought you gave it your honest response. I didn't find you being provocative, you merely contradicted a strong expression of, well, judgementalism, with a reasonable second thought about how Perkins may have come to his senses, but certainly pointing out the value of what he's shared, even if someone wants to question his motives.

When someone reacts strongly as fab has, that can have motives behind it as well. I tend to let them do that, and try to maintain a steady course. If they are really interested in discussion, that will pull through in the end if the emotional reactions aren't fed. If they are tossing out emotion bait, that will become clear as well. Generally, if they are trolling, they lose interest, withdraw, go fish somewhere else. Sometimes they like to leave a few insults lying around while they withdraw. Hard to say why with any certainty.

Any idea how anyone is supposed to answer the question asked at the lead of this thread?

Wow, he throws a mean insult.


Over his shoulder.


Whilst decamping at high speed.

I'd like to hear more of how you are putting ego roles together with the roles that I see as part of these institutions we take part in.

One thing that struck me about the experiment was how quickly these young students took up these roles, and how thoroughly they played them out, to a point where the whole thing got way out of hand in just a couple of days. Zimbardo's girlfriend at the time, now his wife, played quite a heroic role by waking him up to what exactly was going on right in front of his own eyes. He quite consciously marvels at his own role in the experiment, how he somewhat duped himself into seeing it as science.

This is much more about the philosophy of mind than it is about any of our notions of this method of exploration we call "science." As such, I think it raises deeper questions to challenge each of us personally about our own self actuation. Despite trying to set it up as an "experiment" it had so many factors involved that couldn't be sorted out that there is nothing in particular that could be said to be determined as a result. What it does, however, is question our own social programming, our own involvement in the roles we take on, and the settings for those roles, which are in many ways identifiable as institutions. Institutions have abstract form and structure we learn through closely guided training from the time we enter our first institutions, which we call "schools." We learn basic forms for adapting to other institutions later in life. We learn how to take direction from authorities, for example, and we learn to take that as a given for how life should be.

The Milgram Experiment that preceded it also opens up these kinds of questions about institutional learning, roles, and playing out the way the roles should go as a result of learning.

These followed some years after WWII, and were the results of questioning about how the atrocities of that war could have happened.

I'll do my best!

Within me, within each of us, is a consciousness capable of observing that which we perceive as 'self'.
For example, that consciousness is aware now, that I sit here and type these words as they formulate in my mind.
This consciousness represents the essence within me, which is my BEING, as opposed to that which acts out in the world, which interacts with the world - my ego.
Ego roles are the roles we tend,for much of the time, to be unconscious of.
We attach to certain identities - male/female, rich/poor, independent/dependent, powerful/weak, pretty/ugly, clever/foolish.... and we act in the play (life) according to our roles and their perceived position in the whole- superior/inferior.... These roles are re-enforced many times over throughout our lives, and if they are not they are abandoned lest we are treated as mad, or mentally unstable...
Those roles we take on - or are given - inform our life, our existence in this world, but they are not, essentially, what we are, else we would not have the conscious capacity to step outside of these roles and observe ourselves. But because the unconscious mind tends to be so dominant, we seldom do step out and be that which we truly are - conscious observer. That is why it's so easy for certain roles (all roles?) to overwhelm us, as n the case of these experiments.
Becoming conscious, or becoming that which we truly are, gives us the opportunity to moderate(?) our unconscious reactions to perceived rights and wrongs. (I'm pretty sure that's why Buddha laughed! )

Not sure this is quite what you were looking for (I'll gladly try gain if not) but it was very interesting to try to put these thoughts and ideas into words!

That's very much the sort of philosophical speculation I'm looking for.

What you are trying to describe resonates with me as well. What are you reading about the nature of ego right now?

I've just started Eckhart Tolle's 'A New Earth' - the first couple of chapters refer to ego in this way, I assume the rest will... We'll see. The main premise of the book is the evolution of consciousness in humanity.
I read recently (last year) a book called 'The Voice For Love: Accessing Your Inner Wisdom To Fulfil Your Life's Purpose' by Candace and DavidPaul Doyle. This book is a spiritual journey more than an intellectual stimuli, but it's a book I fell in love with - well thumbed and dog-eared. If you are exploring the nature of ego and the nature of the truth of who/what we are, I highly recommend it. But be warned, this is a spiritual guide not an intellectual read. It may not be for you as it is for me.

Damn...
well, I'm impressed! i can't even begin to post like this without realizing it would have to take at least 90 pages, and should be abandoned on a discussion forum.

Well done Karen. I respect you even more now.


This is the reason several years ago I started asking myself a few basic questions.
Example; I'd start with a personal awareness, such as, I don't like gays. Then ask my self why? And keep asking why until I reach the root. (honesty with self is paramount) Another question on that same course, if I don't like it, do I really not like it, (and why) or was I taught to not like it? Is it possible that maybe I really do like it, but won't allow myself to accept it because I was taught that I can't?

Once you learn how to do this, you find your self doing this all the time. The internal conversation is never ending, and like a spiders web, a tangled skein, everything is interconnected so that every personal discovery has an effect on everything else! Things begin to open up exponentially.

The difficulty is that you can't take your social circle with you on this journey. Awareness can come with a very high burden to bear. The more I have learned about myself, the more honest I become, the more I realize just how much honesty is lacking in so many people's lives. I can see people living with their prejudices and ism's knowing that they have no clue why they think these things, nor do they see any harm in teaching these things to their children. And you can't tell them about it. The last thing an idiot will accept is to be told he's an idiot.

People aren't bad though. Most just haven't yet decided to evolve. It's very difficult to learn, when you think you already know the truth.

Did you read Eckhart Tolle's other book? I was in the middle of it on a motorcycle journey on 911. I ended up a few days later at Mt. Shasta and spent a week just camping, hiking, and reading. I haven't read any spiritual books in several years, but I used to. I started studying Buddhism when I was in the military, many years ago. I consider it more an existential psychology/philosophy than a religion. Where does Eckhart go from the Power of Now?

The majority of the people at Thom's when I joined were there because of his book The Prophet's Way. There was a whole section of the board geared to forums of that nature. Those folks and that emphasis were crowded out by a noisy political expansion in membership a little over two years ago when Thom went national. But that was part of what drew me to stay on the board four years ago, and certainly made it worth while. I made some good friends.

One of the now departed members, an ex moderator, Usha Berfalo, wrote this book: Is Your World Flat?. That' link is also her website. We co administer her board, send me a PM and I'll send you a link. It's very small but open to anyone interested, though she's pretty careful about screening prospects, and considers everyone's feelings about it. Such discussions as you've alluded to would be welcome there.

justt clicked onto the link for MerKaBa and go a virus warning... maybe you should tell your friend?

I got no warnings.

(Symantec Internet Security Suite)

I personaly suggest http://www.thisworldmatters.org/forum/this forum for those that wish to discuss spiritual matters... A great place to exist, and no virus warnings.

Is that the same karen and you?

Si, senior.

I's karen's forum, though... I pop in when spam bots need monitoring...

It's good to see these rhizome like sites sprouting all over.

Hey! I'm a few years away from that, slow down!

what, spanish, or spam bots?
edit to add...
or a senior?

I was just funnin' I figure you probably meant señor.

yup... haven't figued out tildee's (sp?) yet...

how'd you do that?

I Googled for the Spanish spelling and copied and pasted.

Special Keys


http://tlt.psu.edu/suggestions/internation...ts/codealt.html

what, now you're backing allan keys?

just kidding...

Thanks for the link! That looks like it will come in handy.

The power of the modern Google.

Shucks! Wow! Thank you! My ego could definitely get used to this!!!



Sounds similar to my experiences - journeying along 'the road less travelled by'.
Right now I'm at a stage where I'm able to sense my essential BEING even when I'm not in meditation. But my ego still likes to take over, particularly when I'm in conflict with another.... Lord knows where this will end up, but if I vanish in a puff of enlightenment don't be surprised!



A New Earth is my first introduction to Tolle (a friend told me it was one for me) but I rally want The Power of Now. - I'm loving this current book! Let me give you a taste having already told you that te premise of this book is the evolving human consciousness:





I'm currently waiting for the software and other essentials I need to evolve the site. I'm afraid I've been neglecting it since I was told that I'd soon have the freedom to create the structure I want for it.- That was about 6 months ago, and I'm still waiting!

Ren, I'll PM you later, just as soon as I get home from my day with the family.
I go now, to shower and to revel in my inflated ego!

I visited your board karen, very impressive set of forum topics that reveal your depth and breadth of awareness of what I would also consider the relevant issues facing us today. As I said to seuss, good to see these rhizomes sprouting and colonizing all over the internet. I see you are using the same software we use at MerKaBa. I'll be interested to know what "software" upgrades you are speaking of. Maybe we can communicate about such technicalities off board.

One of the interface crisis points I ran into at Thom's over the last two years was what I believe he considers to be spreading the message to... well, for want of a better category, the conservatives, but it's not any such thing to me, really. The result of his intentional interface has been the cultivation of "debate" with those of the embedded point of view that human control of the earth and its resources is a good thing for humanity, and that is said with an emphasis on 'control'.

Whatever might be meant by "spreading the message," I can see after much effort that debate, or even less contentious discussion, is not one of its ways. It will inevitably be rationally dispersed into confusion, whether by intentional means through the paid propagandists (trolls) or by the mere lack of ability to share thoughts from different minds through the medium of language. In Eckhart's Power of Mind, and Stillness Speaks he offers one of the simplest and easiest to grasp messages about going beyond the entrapment of rational thought. It's by no means a new message, just one of the more accessible ones for Westerner's and their peculiar version of the thought process as it intertwines with their cultural memes.

I think for groups of us to develop any cohesive thoughts we can share, it must be done in smaller cells, connected rhizome-like through the network of connections we are able to make as humans, one being this internet.

Networking is made difficult, because it also is possible for false, and for whatever reasons even insidious, interlocutors to get into the mix. What works best from the vantage point I have at the moment, is a culture of people who develop a common lexicon with meanings that many can share. This is the globalization process that is spreading on a different plane, by many means, as the other, economic process spreads as well. Which one will transform humanity as a whole? Hard to say. The economic one is organized in much the same way as all past complex societies that have collapsed. That's where I think that's headed. The other is like what survives after the collapse, but those were never able to connect on a common plane of communication, so they remained disorganized until the next super hierarchical organizing principle arose.

Of course that rhizome culture of commonality that attempts to connect through networking will inevitably be branded as some form of "group" thought, which is the way the dispersers of our commonalities even within our various nation states diffuse and disperse our efforts at democratic organizing and maintain a system that serves them well, but in the end destroys the planet. I watched that process take place at Thom's board in the past two years. Don't know what to make of it yet.

I know what you mean. I do still get caught up in other people's drama. Especially by those who lack internal honesty in their charactor, (if you can't be honest with yourself, how can you be honest with other people?) yet are in a position of power over me. Feeling economically vulnerable creates my own weakness to be exploited. But when I made the decision that if it cost everything, then it was ment to be and so be it, then that power pretty much dried right up.

Now that things in that area are changing, I'm allowed to observe the circle I used to be stuck in and it's a fascinating source of entertainment. I also realize that I now have very little reason for much angst, and with summer just around the corner and things to do in anticipation, life is pretty good.