Full Version: Kucinich - NO SACRIFICE
OLD American Century / White Rose Society message boards > Political Discussion forums > Politics In General
QUOTE(karen @ Friday, 18 January 2008, 2:35 pm) 
Karen, thanks for that. I took it to the Hartmann board and started a thread. Several of the usual suspects responded with the usual, he ain't 6' tall, no cowboy hat, and no six gun, what a loser. One said:
QUOTE
Listening to Dennis spout that nobody who was currently sacrificing something, (which I don't believe is accurate), because he is elected and suddenly constructs a windmill on every street corner, struck me as other worldly. In short, the clip that Ren cleverly posted at the beginning of this thread was full promise which has no hope of being accomplished in this decade, let alone the term of a President. In short, Dennis spouted nonsense and the question he was offered was untruthful and inaccurate.
"that nobody who was currently sacrificing something" -- of course, that's not what he said, is it?
"because he is elected and suddenly constructs a windmill on every street corner, struck me as other worldly."
That's not exactly accurate either, is it?
What he said was, we would move towards sustainability, he didn't go into his program for doing that. Here's a little more in his words of how he sees that happening Kucinich talks to DFA members.
QUOTE(rén @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 12:31 am)
Karen, thanks for that. I took it to the Hartmann board and started a thread. Several of the usual suspects responded with the usual, he ain't 6' tall, no cowboy hat, and no six gun, what a loser. One said:
"that nobody who was currently sacrificing something" -- of course, that's not what he said, is it?
"because he is elected and suddenly constructs a windmill on every street corner, struck me as other worldly."
That's not exactly accurate either, is it?
What he said was, we would move towards sustainability, he didn't go into his program for doing that. Here's a little more in his words of how he sees that happening Kucinich talks to DFA members.
"that nobody who was currently sacrificing something" -- of course, that's not what he said, is it?
"because he is elected and suddenly constructs a windmill on every street corner, struck me as other worldly."
That's not exactly accurate either, is it?
What he said was, we would move towards sustainability, he didn't go into his program for doing that. Here's a little more in his words of how he sees that happening Kucinich talks to DFA members.
By the look of some of those responses, it's no wonder you found yourself here!
I hope you found the time and the inclination to point out the flaws in their arguments - a person could really have fun with something like that if they managed to keep their cool!
That said, I vote Maxanne pays the Hartmann board a visit and explains the finer details of critical thinking to some of the less articulate thinkers there (an accusation that can all too often be leveled at me!
)! 
Don't suppose you've got a link to that board have you - I'd like to see what's being said there if possible.
Thanks for this new youtube Ren. - Excellent!
IRest assured it will be shared liberally!
QUOTE(karen @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 5:00 am)
By the look of some of those responses, it's no wonder you found yourself here!
I hope you found the time and the inclination to point out the flaws in their arguments - a person could really have fun with something like that if they managed to keep their cool!
That said, I vote Maxanne pays the Hartmann board a visit and explains the finer details of critical thinking to some of the less articulate thinkers there (an accusation that can all too often be leveled at me! )!
Don't suppose you've got a link to that board have you - I'd like to see what's being said there if possible.
Thanks for this new youtube Ren. - Excellent!
IRest assured it will be shared liberally!
I hope you found the time and the inclination to point out the flaws in their arguments - a person could really have fun with something like that if they managed to keep their cool!
That said, I vote Maxanne pays the Hartmann board a visit and explains the finer details of critical thinking to some of the less articulate thinkers there (an accusation that can all too often be leveled at me!
)! Don't suppose you've got a link to that board have you - I'd like to see what's being said there if possible.
Thanks for this new youtube Ren. - Excellent!
IRest assured it will be shared liberally!
QUOTE
I hope you found the time and the inclination to point out the flaws in their arguments - a person could really have fun with something like that if they managed to keep their cool!
I do that, and I'm good at keeping my cool. If I'm not cool, I go for a walk. Then I respond. Lovely thing about message boards, really.
They have all sorts of ways of not "getting" the message, which leads one to the conclusion that discussion is not the primary interest. "Winning" "disruption" all sorts of things, but not discussing and sharing ideas, no, not that. A common response to one of my posts of clarification might be I like to talk to hear myself talking. Actually, I like to write, I point out. I'm not really very verbal.
Here's the main page of the new board: Thom Hartmann Forums
Here's the thread I started with your youtube: Who has to Sacrifice?
And if you want to watch me struggling it out with a couple of trolls, try this thread, I'll start with the first post on the last page so you can see how absurd the argument can get: ren
I make several summary rants of the previous argument up to that page, on that page, and if you want, you'll get a chance to see how they duck and dodge and jive around. For some background on the characters, Slab is a business owner in Seattle who likes to brag about his guns and his marksmanship, Loganthor runs an implement dealership in Portland, and he and Slab are friends, tend to work as a team. Hard for me to believe they are adults. Both have been banned, but allowed to return. They are much tamer now than they used to be.
I just found a way to embed youtubes in posts there, which I really like. Adds something special to the posts for me, a creative edge. Unfortunately it doesn't work here. Probably the administrator needs to add it to a line of acceptable BBcodes. I had fun yesterday with this thread, using the satirical comedy Duck Soup: National Debt -- Hear! Hear! We need Leadership!
Is it any wonder that the American corporate media has marginalized and removed this man from contention?
In spite of the fact that this mans views more closely parallel those of the largest segment of our population, he couldn't even get the courts to agree to let him on the televised debates!
We're being herded like sheep to what ever trough they want us to feed on.
Right now that trough is the election.
I'm getting so tired of being manipulated by people who's only desire is to get more of what they already have.
In spite of the fact that this mans views more closely parallel those of the largest segment of our population, he couldn't even get the courts to agree to let him on the televised debates!
We're being herded like sheep to what ever trough they want us to feed on.
Right now that trough is the election.
I'm getting so tired of being manipulated by people who's only desire is to get more of what they already have.
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 9:58 am)
Is it any wonder that the American corporate media has marginalized and removed this man from contention?
In spite of the fact that this mans views more closely parallel those of the largest segment of our population, he couldn't even get the courts to agree to let him on the televised debates!
We're being herded like sheep to what ever trough they want us to feed on.
Right now that trough is the election.
I'm getting so tired of being manipulated by people who's only desire is to get more of what they already have.
In spite of the fact that this mans views more closely parallel those of the largest segment of our population, he couldn't even get the courts to agree to let him on the televised debates!
We're being herded like sheep to what ever trough they want us to feed on.
Right now that trough is the election.
I'm getting so tired of being manipulated by people who's only desire is to get more of what they already have.
It certainly feels like I'm watching people being herded. This decision by the Nevada Supreme Court at the last minute to exclude this important voice from the public in the only truly mass exposure option he has -- debates on corporate owned media, since he's not corporately funded and can't use the other means, like advertising, and an option many people don't even question is the ONLY one, because they don't even know about others, haven't looked I guess -- is how I suspect people are herded, if they are. How else? So the impact of that decision by a court system is one of the nails in the coffin of this thing we pretend to play at called democracy.
I feel the only way not to be herded is to directly confront it. Message boards of this sort are a way to learn about it, but the actual confrontation is both more direct in our every day life, and much more difficult to discern. Everything seems so clear in the abstract, until you take it into reality. The Hartmann board has become a direct confrontation arena, and one which I have learned from tremendously, but it can also be exhausting and seemingly meaningless because so much effort appears to get successfully diffused into a kind of nothingness. But if one looks, one will see strategies, either conscious, or unconscious, involved in that process. Seeing that, one can develop patience and timing, and occasionally -- very occasionally -- one can feel the satisfaction of a sense of mutual understanding arising out of a struggle.
And so those rare moments must be studied too, in order to see if one can understand just what goes into them. I feel it's more than just the ideas themselves involved in those moments. It's a context of feelings, empathy, awareness, not just an "I agree with you." And whatever it is, it comes then, must be looked at then, because when that moment is gone, only the husk of it is left as a memory. If it wasn't acknowledged and seen fully, then recognizing it the next time means a kind of hit or miss hope that you will. Getting to it is a kind of hit or miss hope, too. We need to find out how to get to those moments of understanding with each other, because they are what make us strong, not these divided and conquered beings mouthing our road rage to each other behind the windows of our automobiles on the freeways as we herd back and forth to our cubicles in a corporate institution where much of our time around each other likely occurs.
I feel that the reasons we can't get to that sometimes have fundamental characteristics, like someone is bunkered down with their ego in a trench and will defend that fragile thing to the death. Or a more difficult to determine, someone is consciously aware of what they don't want understood to be understood, and become a conscious and shared sense of reality. After all, that's how culture is, a common set of understandings mutually acknowledged and reified on a daily basis.
It's a never ending process to look into all that for me, both on the daily basis level, and from the abstract theoretical level. The two don't always mesh well, but then that's what keeps it ever fascinating for me.
QUOTE(rén @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 3:57 pm)
It certainly feels like I'm watching people being herded. This decision by the Nevada Supreme Court at the last minute to exclude this important voice from the public in the only truly mass exposure option he has -- debates on corporate owned media, since he's not corporately funded and can't use the other means, like advertising, and an option many people don't even question is the ONLY one, because they don't even know about others, haven't looked I guess -- is how I suspect people are herded, if they are. How else? So the impact of that decision by a court system is one of the nails in the coffin of this thing we pretend to play at called democracy.
I feel the only way not to be herded is to directly confront it. Message boards of this sort are a way to learn about it, but the actual confrontation is both more direct in our every day life, and much more difficult to discern. Everything seems so clear in the abstract, until you take it into reality. The Hartmann board has become a direct confrontation arena, and one which I have learned from tremendously, but it can also be exhausting and seemingly meaningless because so much effort appears to get successfully diffused into a kind of nothingness. But if one looks, one will see strategies, either conscious, or unconscious, involved in that process. Seeing that, one can develop patience and timing, and occasionally -- very occasionally -- one can feel the satisfaction of a sense of mutual understanding arising out of a struggle.
And so those rare moments must be studied too, in order to see if one can understand just what goes into them. I feel it's more than just the ideas themselves involved in those moments. It's a context of feelings, empathy, awareness, not just an "I agree with you." And whatever it is, it comes then, must be looked at then, because when that moment is gone, only the husk of it is left as a memory. If it wasn't acknowledged and seen fully, then recognizing it the next time means a kind of hit or miss hope that you will. Getting to it is a kind of hit or miss hope, too. We need to find out how to get to those moments of understanding with each other, because they are what make us strong, not these divided and conquered beings mouthing our road rage to each other behind the windows of our automobiles on the freeways as we herd back and forth to our cubicles in a corporate institution where much of our time around each other likely occurs.
I feel that the reasons we can't get to that sometimes have fundamental characteristics, like someone is bunkered down with their ego in a trench and will defend that fragile thing to the death. Or a more difficult to determine, someone is consciously aware of what they don't want understood to be understood, and become a conscious and shared sense of reality. After all, that's how culture is, a common set of understandings mutually acknowledged and reified on a daily basis.
It's a never ending process to look into all that for me, both on the daily basis level, and from the abstract theoretical level. The two don't always mesh well, but then that's what keeps it ever fascinating for me.
I feel the only way not to be herded is to directly confront it. Message boards of this sort are a way to learn about it, but the actual confrontation is both more direct in our every day life, and much more difficult to discern. Everything seems so clear in the abstract, until you take it into reality. The Hartmann board has become a direct confrontation arena, and one which I have learned from tremendously, but it can also be exhausting and seemingly meaningless because so much effort appears to get successfully diffused into a kind of nothingness. But if one looks, one will see strategies, either conscious, or unconscious, involved in that process. Seeing that, one can develop patience and timing, and occasionally -- very occasionally -- one can feel the satisfaction of a sense of mutual understanding arising out of a struggle.
And so those rare moments must be studied too, in order to see if one can understand just what goes into them. I feel it's more than just the ideas themselves involved in those moments. It's a context of feelings, empathy, awareness, not just an "I agree with you." And whatever it is, it comes then, must be looked at then, because when that moment is gone, only the husk of it is left as a memory. If it wasn't acknowledged and seen fully, then recognizing it the next time means a kind of hit or miss hope that you will. Getting to it is a kind of hit or miss hope, too. We need to find out how to get to those moments of understanding with each other, because they are what make us strong, not these divided and conquered beings mouthing our road rage to each other behind the windows of our automobiles on the freeways as we herd back and forth to our cubicles in a corporate institution where much of our time around each other likely occurs.
I feel that the reasons we can't get to that sometimes have fundamental characteristics, like someone is bunkered down with their ego in a trench and will defend that fragile thing to the death. Or a more difficult to determine, someone is consciously aware of what they don't want understood to be understood, and become a conscious and shared sense of reality. After all, that's how culture is, a common set of understandings mutually acknowledged and reified on a daily basis.
It's a never ending process to look into all that for me, both on the daily basis level, and from the abstract theoretical level. The two don't always mesh well, but then that's what keeps it ever fascinating for me.
There are a few direct action subscribers here, but many have left, due to unstoppable rhetoric of those who don't physically act, and assume that ranting over and over again on the internet, dodging direct questions and formulating their own talking points is some form of world - changing activism...
I'm sorry, I'm not going to bash anyone specifically, as I don't want to hurt any feelings, so I won't name names. If you'd like to know what I'm driving at, read through some of the more prolific threads, and you might figure out who's worth the effort and who isn't. There are some (or were some) here that would travel hundreds of miles to aid in a protest, or have created a kindered one in their own locale, but right now, they're few and far between...
unless they don't live in the us...
QUOTE(seuss @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 1:18 pm)
There are a few direct action subscribers here, but many have left, due to unstoppable rhetoric of those who don't physically act, and assume that ranting over and over again on the internet, dodging direct questions and formulating their own talking points is some form of world - changing activism...
I'm sorry, I'm not going to bash anyone specifically, as I don't want to hurt any feelings, so I won't name names. If you'd like to know what I'm driving at, read through some of the more prolific threads, and you might figure out who's worth the effort and who isn't. There are some (or were some) here that would travel hundreds of miles to aid in a protest, or have created a kindered one in their own locale, but right now, they're few and far between...
unless they don't live in the us...
I'm sorry, I'm not going to bash anyone specifically, as I don't want to hurt any feelings, so I won't name names. If you'd like to know what I'm driving at, read through some of the more prolific threads, and you might figure out who's worth the effort and who isn't. There are some (or were some) here that would travel hundreds of miles to aid in a protest, or have created a kindered one in their own locale, but right now, they're few and far between...
unless they don't live in the us...
And I say again, there are any number of ways to be active. Going out and getting in people's faces is only one way.
I would be careful about being uppity about what is and is not acceptable to be considered doing good things,or otherwise helping the cause.
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 4:41 pm)
And I say again, there are any number of ways to be active. Going out and getting in people's faces is only one way.
I would be careful about being uppity about what is and is not acceptable to be considered doing good things,or otherwise helping the cause.
I would be careful about being uppity about what is and is not acceptable to be considered doing good things,or otherwise helping the cause.
way to be self - incriminating, there, sky...
guilty conscience?
QUOTE
I would be careful about being uppity about what is and is not acceptable to be considered doing good things,or otherwise helping the cause.
what the hell is this supposed to mean?
...or are you just making my case for me?
QUOTE(seuss @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 1:50 pm)
way to be self - incriminating, there, sky...
Self incriminate as far as you might be concerned,
correcting a truth as far as I am concerned.
guilty conscience?
Just because you ask if I have a guilty conscience does not mean that I do, even though it is implied.
In fact, the reason i stated what I did was not about myself, but for those who don't feel the desire to act as you do.
what the hell is this supposed to mean?
Seems pretty clear to me. Your saying that if people don't do something that you agree with as being valuable, then they are wasting their time, or that they are not being valuable and productive to the cause. And in my opinion, that's mighty high of you!
...or are you just making my case for me?
On the contrary. I'm suggesting that you not take yourself quite so seriously.
Self incriminate as far as you might be concerned,
correcting a truth as far as I am concerned.
guilty conscience?
Just because you ask if I have a guilty conscience does not mean that I do, even though it is implied.
In fact, the reason i stated what I did was not about myself, but for those who don't feel the desire to act as you do.
what the hell is this supposed to mean?
Seems pretty clear to me. Your saying that if people don't do something that you agree with as being valuable, then they are wasting their time, or that they are not being valuable and productive to the cause. And in my opinion, that's mighty high of you!
...or are you just making my case for me?
On the contrary. I'm suggesting that you not take yourself quite so seriously.
In fact, you seem to be defensive enough for both of us.
You do what you think you gotta do Seuss, and don't be so critical of those who have a different idea.
And don't be so quick to assume you understand anyone else's circumstances, especially when it's all you can do to understand your own!
QUOTE(rén @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 11:48 am)
I do that, and I'm good at keeping my cool. If I'm not cool, I go for a walk. Then I respond. Lovely thing about message boards, really.
They have all sorts of ways of not "getting" the message, which leads one to the conclusion that discussion is not the primary interest. "Winning" "disruption" all sorts of things, but not discussing and sharing ideas, no, not that. A common response to one of my posts of clarification might be I like to talk to hear myself talking. Actually, I like to write, I point out. I'm not really very verbal.
Here's the main page of the new board: Thom Hartmann Forums
Here's the thread I started with your youtube: Who has to Sacrifice?
And if you want to watch me struggling it out with a couple of trolls, try this thread, I'll start with the first post on the last page so you can see how absurd the argument can get: ren
I make several summary rants of the previous argument up to that page, on that page, and if you want, you'll get a chance to see how they duck and dodge and jive around. For some background on the characters, Slab is a business owner in Seattle who likes to brag about his guns and his marksmanship, Loganthor runs an implement dealership in Portland, and he and Slab are friends, tend to work as a team. Hard for me to believe they are adults. Both have been banned, but allowed to return. They are much tamer now than they used to be.
I just found a way to embed youtubes in posts there, which I really like. Adds something special to the posts for me, a creative edge. Unfortunately it doesn't work here. Probably the administrator needs to add it to a line of acceptable BBcodes. I had fun yesterday with this thread, using the satirical comedy Duck Soup: National Debt -- Hear! Hear! We need Leadership!
They have all sorts of ways of not "getting" the message, which leads one to the conclusion that discussion is not the primary interest. "Winning" "disruption" all sorts of things, but not discussing and sharing ideas, no, not that. A common response to one of my posts of clarification might be I like to talk to hear myself talking. Actually, I like to write, I point out. I'm not really very verbal.
Here's the main page of the new board: Thom Hartmann Forums
Here's the thread I started with your youtube: Who has to Sacrifice?
And if you want to watch me struggling it out with a couple of trolls, try this thread, I'll start with the first post on the last page so you can see how absurd the argument can get: ren
I make several summary rants of the previous argument up to that page, on that page, and if you want, you'll get a chance to see how they duck and dodge and jive around. For some background on the characters, Slab is a business owner in Seattle who likes to brag about his guns and his marksmanship, Loganthor runs an implement dealership in Portland, and he and Slab are friends, tend to work as a team. Hard for me to believe they are adults. Both have been banned, but allowed to return. They are much tamer now than they used to be.
I just found a way to embed youtubes in posts there, which I really like. Adds something special to the posts for me, a creative edge. Unfortunately it doesn't work here. Probably the administrator needs to add it to a line of acceptable BBcodes. I had fun yesterday with this thread, using the satirical comedy Duck Soup: National Debt -- Hear! Hear! We need Leadership!
Thank you Ren! Very happy with those links.
I'm going to spend a couple of hours there tomorrow and am very much looking forward o it!
Sky:
QUOTE
Is it any wonder that the American corporate media has marginalized and removed this man from contention?
In spite of the fact that this mans views more closely parallel those of the largest segment of our population, he couldn't even get the courts to agree to let him on the televised debates!
We're being herded like sheep to what ever trough they want us to feed on.
Right now that trough is the election.
I'm getting so tired of being manipulated by people who's only desire is to get more of what they already have.
In spite of the fact that this mans views more closely parallel those of the largest segment of our population, he couldn't even get the courts to agree to let him on the televised debates!
We're being herded like sheep to what ever trough they want us to feed on.
Right now that trough is the election.
I'm getting so tired of being manipulated by people who's only desire is to get more of what they already have.
That's why it's up to people like us to get the messages out. Funnily enough, I've just had this very conversation with my Ron Paul supporting friend.
We have to make as much noise as we can, in as many places as we can, so that hopefully, if enough join in, we will drown out the constant drone of the corporate media and wake people up to the truth!
I've just invited that friend here by the way, because he really seems to want to be involved in this sort of discussion. So, if we get a new RP fan in here, be nice/respectful to him - he's not a bot, just a concerned citizen, like the rest of us!
Ren:
QUOTE
And so those rare moments must be studied too, in order to see if one can understand just what goes into them. I feel it's more than just the ideas themselves involved in those moments. It's a context of feelings, empathy, awareness, not just an "I agree with you." And whatever it is, it comes then, must be looked at then, because when that moment is gone, only the husk of it is left as a memory. If it wasn't acknowledged and seen fully, then recognizing it the next time means a kind of hit or miss hope that you will. Getting to it is a kind of hit or miss hope, too. We need to find out how to get to those moments of understanding with each other, because they are what make us strong, not these divided and conquered beings mouthing our road rage to each other behind the windows of our automobiles on the freeways as we herd back and forth to our cubicles in a corporate institution where much of our time around each other likely occurs.
I feel that the reasons we can't get to that sometimes have fundamental characteristics, like someone is bunkered down with their ego in a trench and will defend that fragile thing to the death. Or a more difficult to determine, someone is consciously aware of what they don't want understood to be understood, and become a conscious and shared sense of reality. After all, that's how culture is, a common set of understandings mutually acknowledged and reified on a daily basis
.I feel that the reasons we can't get to that sometimes have fundamental characteristics, like someone is bunkered down with their ego in a trench and will defend that fragile thing to the death. Or a more difficult to determine, someone is consciously aware of what they don't want understood to be understood, and become a conscious and shared sense of reality. After all, that's how culture is, a common set of understandings mutually acknowledged and reified on a daily basis
You seem here to be talking about reaching the heart of the person you're in discussion with, as opposed to their ego. You're right of course, if a person is so wrapped up in ego it can be very difficult to have an open and frank conversation with them. But if those involved in the discussion are willing to recognise the humanness in the other(s) and respect that, then there is something solid there to build on, because an honest conection has been made, and that's what we humans are all about.
Seuss:
QUOTE
There are a few direct action subscribers here, but many have left, due to unstoppable rhetoric of those who don't physically act, and assume that ranting over and over again on the internet, dodging direct questions and formulating their own talking points is some form of world - changing activism...
I'm sorry, I'm not going to bash anyone specifically, as I don't want to hurt any feelings, so I won't name names. If you'd like to know what I'm driving at, read through some of the more prolific threads, and you might figure out who's worth the effort and who isn't. There are some (or were some) here that would travel hundreds of miles to aid in a protest, or have created a kindered one in their own locale, but right now, they're few and far between...
unless they don't live in the us...
I'm sorry, I'm not going to bash anyone specifically, as I don't want to hurt any feelings, so I won't name names. If you'd like to know what I'm driving at, read through some of the more prolific threads, and you might figure out who's worth the effort and who isn't. There are some (or were some) here that would travel hundreds of miles to aid in a protest, or have created a kindered one in their own locale, but right now, they're few and far between...
unless they don't live in the us...
Sweety, we each have our part to play even if that's sometimes not easy to see. Frustration gets to us all from time to time, so I completely understand yours, but one of our more prolific posters here seems tto give a lot of personal support to the Mod, and that, I'm absolutely sure, is invaluable.
All boards go through their phases... different characters come and go. Some are more missed than others, they're the ones we hope remember us kindly.
QUOTE(karen @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 8:00 am)
That said, I vote Maxanne pays the Hartmann board a visit and explains the finer details of critical thinking to some of the less articulate thinkers there (an accusation that can all too often be leveled at me! )!
)! I can't imagine anyone thinking you're less than very articulate, Karen. Jackass that I sometimes am, I (very) occassionally enjoy some of your typos that lend themselves to double meanings, because I also appreciate your sense of humor. Hope you don't decide to turn the tables.
QUOTE(soon2b @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 4:31 pm)
I can't imagine anyone thinking you're less than very articulate, Karen. Jackass that I sometimes am, I (very) occassionally enjoy some of your typos that lend themselves to double meanings, because I also appreciate your sense of humor. Hope you don't decide to turn the tables.
Ah, ya big softy ya! Very kind words.
I'm kind of dyslexic, which means I don't tend to spot your typo's, and I can't type(!) but you have as much fun as you want out of my unintentional foolary!
- I noticed myself, a day or two ago I referred to Government Stoke TWICE! Of course I changed it to government STOCK(!) as soon as I noticed, but not before hundreds, if not thousands of visitors and members had read it! Oh how I cringed!
Oh, by the way, you spelled occasionally wrong!
Uh....yeah. I did that on purpose to make you feel better.
QUOTE(soon2b @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 4:50 pm)
Uh....yeah. I did that on purpose to make you feel better.
Shucks, thanks!
QUOTE
Seuss: There are a few direct action subscribers here, but many have left, due to unstoppable rhetoric of those who don't physically act, and assume that ranting over and over again on the internet, dodging direct questions and formulating their own talking points is some form of world - changing activism...
I'm sorry, I'm not going to bash anyone specifically, as I don't want to hurt any feelings, so I won't name names. If you'd like to know what I'm driving at, read through some of the more prolific threads, and you might figure out who's worth the effort and who isn't. There are some (or were some) here that would travel hundreds of miles to aid in a protest, or have created a kindered one in their own locale, but right now, they're few and far between...
unless they don't live in the us...
I'm sorry, I'm not going to bash anyone specifically, as I don't want to hurt any feelings, so I won't name names. If you'd like to know what I'm driving at, read through some of the more prolific threads, and you might figure out who's worth the effort and who isn't. There are some (or were some) here that would travel hundreds of miles to aid in a protest, or have created a kindered one in their own locale, but right now, they're few and far between...
unless they don't live in the us...
Yes, I have spent time reading through the threads, and that's what attracted me to register. While I'm confident it could be better here, I also am directly experienced with discourse that can be much worse. And by worse, I mean perpetually kept superficial by what a number of us identified as a team effort, led by a master, fourth generation paid correspondent, probably from one of the right wing think tanks. Given the ideology that seeped out, I'd guess one of the neoconservative ones. Generally I'd get the biggest reaction while tossing that term into the crowd. As my old man liked to say, the hit dog always yelps.
I've been messing around on message boards for only about four years now. At first I was really excited about this potential to engage people in discussions, because I saw the potential for an engaged, participatory democratic community to be involved. A big part of that excitement was because I landed on a board, Thom Hartmann's, before he got with Air America and became nationally recognized with a less esoterically focused group. His own radio show out of Vermont, before that, had limited air wave exposure and I happened upon him by chance on the internet. The board composition and atmosphere at that time reminded me a bit of this one, but the spectrum included lots of folks brought in from Europe, his association with Salem, and his book in the 90's, The Prophet's Way.
After Thom went national on Air America the board changed. It was inevitable perhaps. A hard, combative edge entered the conversations, more and more conservatives showed up with their talking points, and they were encouraged because the board administrator wanted the board to reflect Thom's radio personna, which is to take on any caller from anywhere on the political bandwidth and try to discuss whatever concerns in some rational manner. The challenge for us on the board was suddenly ratcheted up tremendously, and expanded into ways and topic areas that many had no interest in whatsoever .
Peaceful minded people who read such wonderful thinkers as Krishnamurti, David Bohm, Eckardt Tolle, and so forth, can't imagine the need to engage in hostile dialog that goes essentially no where that they wanted to go. And why should they? The philosophy of those thinkers is not to proselytize but to find one's own way, and just be, the being is the message, that sort of thing. If one has found a peace then the busy anger of a noisy swarm of bees buzzing is not what one seeks. One doesn't run, but one doesn't go out of one's way to get in the swarm. I suspect they gradually had less reason to click on the link to Thom's and they faded off. I'm actually an administrator on a small board with some of them.
I say this because I feel this engagement on the internet is an important engagement. My initial naive exuberance has changed to something else, but it's not a polar opposite. I feel these engagements are as important as showing up at a demonstration. And whoever these people are on this board, they are worth engaging if they aren't just trolls trying to disrupt a board. We can all learn from these engagements. Trolls don't have that interest. It's important to distinguish a troll from someone with an honest concern, even if a different concern from one's own. But I can speak from experience that it's not easy to tell the difference sometimes.
QUOTE
Karen: You seem here to be talking about reaching the heart of the person you're in discussion with, as opposed to their ego. You're right of course, if a person is so wrapped up in ego it can be very difficult to have an open and frank conversation with them. But if those involved in the discussion are willing to recognise the humanness in the other(s) and respect that, then there is something solid there to build on, because an honest conection has been made, and that's what we humans are all about.
Yes, I feel that's what I'm reaching for, the "humane" ness in a person. I have direct experience with sociopathic and psychopathic people, and that experience is one of the more befuddling experiences to undergo. I'm not certain to this day that I can safely say they have no humane ness about them. But it's certainly not something I feel I could count on from them in a pinch.
With some folks it seems like the easiest thing in the world to make that connection. Just completely natural and essentially mutually energizing. With others, it's an enduring impossibility that just drains me. It's very challenging to keep my energy up with a lot of those drains discharging my energy away, and no recharge possibility. But the challenge does pay off if it doesn't completely discharge you first. I've become somewhat of my own, stable, renewable energy source. But that doesn't mean I am unable to be shorted out and drained.
QUOTE
Peaceful minded people who read such wonderful thinkers as Krishnamurti, David Bohm, Eckardt Tolle, and so forth, can't imagine the need to engage in hostile dialog that goes essentially no where that they wanted to go. And why should they? The philosophy of those thinkers is not to proselytize but to find one's own way, and just be, the being is the message, that sort of thing. If one has found a peace then the busy anger of a noisy swarm of bees buzzing is not what one seeks. One doesn't run, but one doesn't go out of one's way to get in the swarm.
QUOTE
With some folks it seems like the easiest thing in the world to make that connection. Just completely natural and essentially mutually energizing. With others, it's an enduring impossibility that just drains me. It's very challenging to keep my energy up with a lot of those drains discharging my energy away, and no recharge possibility. But the challenge does pay off if it doesn't completely discharge you first.
QUOTE
All boards go through their phases... different characters come and go. Some are more missed than others, they're the ones we hope remember us kindly.
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/bb/index...st&p=120456
QUOTE
"To pretend to know when you do not know is a disease."- Lao-Tzu [Li Erh] (570-490 BC) 'Old Sage', Father of Taoism
"Hitler and Mussolini were only the primary spokesmen for the attitude of domination and craving for power that are in the heart of almost everyone. Until the source is cleared, there will always be confusion and hate, wars and class antagonisms."
- J. Krishnamurti
"We kill at every step, not only in wars, riots, and executions. We kill when we close our eyes to poverty, suffering, and shame. In the same way all disrespect for life, all hard-heartedness, all indifference, all contempt is nothing else than killing. With just a little witty skepticism we can kill a good deal of the future in a young person. Life is waiting everywhere, the future is flowering everywhere, but we only see a small part of it and step on much of it with our feet." : - Hermann Hesse, German Hermeticist, poet, & novelist.
"In their daily life, all are braver than they know"
-Henry David Thoreau
"Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just.": Thomas Jefferson
"Hitler and Mussolini were only the primary spokesmen for the attitude of domination and craving for power that are in the heart of almost everyone. Until the source is cleared, there will always be confusion and hate, wars and class antagonisms."
- J. Krishnamurti
"We kill at every step, not only in wars, riots, and executions. We kill when we close our eyes to poverty, suffering, and shame. In the same way all disrespect for life, all hard-heartedness, all indifference, all contempt is nothing else than killing. With just a little witty skepticism we can kill a good deal of the future in a young person. Life is waiting everywhere, the future is flowering everywhere, but we only see a small part of it and step on much of it with our feet." : - Hermann Hesse, German Hermeticist, poet, & novelist.
"In their daily life, all are braver than they know"
-Henry David Thoreau
"Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just.": Thomas Jefferson
SIGH...
QUOTE(rén @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 5:20 pm)
Yes, I feel that's what I'm reaching for, the "humane" ness in a person. I have direct experience with sociopathic and psychopathic people, and that experience is one of the more befuddling experiences to undergo. I'm not certain to this day that I can safely say they have no humane ness about them. But it's certainly not something I feel I could count on from them in a pinch.
With some folks it seems like the easiest thing in the world to make that connection. Just completely natural and essentially mutually energizing. With others, it's an enduring impossibility that just drains me. It's very challenging to keep my energy up with a lot of those drains discharging my energy away, and no recharge possibility. But the challenge does pay off if it doesn't completely discharge you first. I've become somewhat of my own, stable, renewable energy source. But that doesn't mean I am unable to be shorted out and drained.
With some folks it seems like the easiest thing in the world to make that connection. Just completely natural and essentially mutually energizing. With others, it's an enduring impossibility that just drains me. It's very challenging to keep my energy up with a lot of those drains discharging my energy away, and no recharge possibility. But the challenge does pay off if it doesn't completely discharge you first. I've become somewhat of my own, stable, renewable energy source. But that doesn't mean I am unable to be shorted out and drained.
You know yourself best, and you know your own limits, but I personally try to avoid those who would drain my energy these days (it hasn't always been thus! lol), and they hate the fact that I refuse to engage with them now... And so their energy is expended trying in vein to bait me. Occasionally give them hope... but not for long!
I find providing the facts, or my opinion to those would be trolls who ask, and wishing them peace tends to do the trick very well. If they persist i point them in the direction of the information they say they seek. Naturally it is only a matter of time before the personal insults start.
That's when I wish them love and peace... and it's game over!
QUOTE(karen @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 3:34 pm)
You know yourself best, and you know your own limits, but I personally try to avoid those who would drain my energy these days (it hasn't always been thus! lol), and they hate the fact that I refuse to engage with them now... And so their energy is expended trying in vein to bait me. Occasionally give them hope... but not for long!
I find providing the facts, or my opinion to those would be trolls who ask, and wishing them peace tends to do the trick very well. If they persist i point them in the direction of the information they say they seek. Naturally it is only a matter of time before the personal insults start.
That's when I wish them love and peace... and it's game over!
I find providing the facts, or my opinion to those would be trolls who ask, and wishing them peace tends to do the trick very well. If they persist i point them in the direction of the information they say they seek. Naturally it is only a matter of time before the personal insults start.
That's when I wish them love and peace... and it's game over!
Would I be correct to assume that you have read The Celestine Prophesies?
A counselor friend of mind describes the book as a self help written in the form of a novel.
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 5:45 pm)
Would I be correct to assume that you have read The Celestine Prophesies?
A counselor friend of mind describes the book as a self help written in the form of a novel.
A counselor friend of mind describes the book as a self help written in the form of a novel.
I have, Mr of Mind, yes.
And whilst it's not the most literary or high minded novel ever written it's well worth a read simply for the spiritual concept it offers. Highly recommended to all my spiritually inclined friends.
I'm currently reading (or should I say studying!) Caroline Myss's 'Anatomy of the Spirit' which also, in part, talks of the various ways our energy (or personal power) can be drained, and how that may affect our physical health.
Again, Caroline Myss is someone (self-help books, videos and audio publications, as well as workshops and seminars) I'd recommend to all of my more spiritually inclined friends. Very insightful, she is!
QUOTE(karen @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 3:55 pm)
I have, Mr of Mind, yes.
And whilst it's not the most literary or high minded novel ever written it's well worth a read simply for the spiritual concept it offers. Highly recommended to all my spiritually inclined friends.
Exactly. Again, it's a self help book not intended to be a literary classic.
Reading the book can help a person understand how we interact with other people, and in doing so we can understand them, and ourselves that much better.
I'm currently reading (or should I say studying!) Caroline Myss's 'Anatomy of the Spirit' which also, in part, talks of the various ways our energy (or personal power) can be drained, and how that may affect our physical health.
Again, Caroline Myss is someone (self-help books, videos and audio publications, as well as workshops and seminars) I'd recommend to all of my more spiritually inclined friends. Very insightful, she is!
I will have to put that on my list. I do enjoy the introspectives.
And whilst it's not the most literary or high minded novel ever written it's well worth a read simply for the spiritual concept it offers. Highly recommended to all my spiritually inclined friends.
Exactly. Again, it's a self help book not intended to be a literary classic.
Reading the book can help a person understand how we interact with other people, and in doing so we can understand them, and ourselves that much better.
I'm currently reading (or should I say studying!) Caroline Myss's 'Anatomy of the Spirit' which also, in part, talks of the various ways our energy (or personal power) can be drained, and how that may affect our physical health.
Again, Caroline Myss is someone (self-help books, videos and audio publications, as well as workshops and seminars) I'd recommend to all of my more spiritually inclined friends. Very insightful, she is!
I will have to put that on my list. I do enjoy the introspectives.
QUOTE(karen @ Sunday, 20 January 2008, 3:34 pm)
You know yourself best, and you know your own limits, but I personally try to avoid those who would drain my energy these days (it hasn't always been thus! lol), and they hate the fact that I refuse to engage with them now... And so their energy is expended trying in vein to bait me. Occasionally give them hope... but not for long!
I find providing the facts, or my opinion to those would be trolls who ask, and wishing them peace tends to do the trick very well. If they persist i point them in the direction of the information they say they seek. Naturally it is only a matter of time before the personal insults start.
That's when I wish them love and peace... and it's game over!
I find providing the facts, or my opinion to those would be trolls who ask, and wishing them peace tends to do the trick very well. If they persist i point them in the direction of the information they say they seek. Naturally it is only a matter of time before the personal insults start.
That's when I wish them love and peace... and it's game over!
And that's as it should be, I feel, for each of us, for who else could know the self best? As Wallace Stevens notes in his poem, Of Mere Being, there's a palm at the end of the mind.
My strategy has turned to trying to get them to say something intelligent themselves. Nothing seems to put them off guard faster than posing some penetrating questions. Then it's a matter of getting them to understand the questions, sometimes, and that can get very involved. They often don't particularly like my verdict of what's an intelligent answer from them. I'm not easily satisfied. They get very defensive when I point out the why and the wherefores of how the ones from the can are long since rotten.
I just know ahead of time they'll be throwing out emotion bait. It's a given.
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