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sky of mind
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Michael Moore:
Who Is the Best Dem Candidate on the Issues?

By Michael Moore, MichaelMoore.com. Posted January 2, 2008.


If you cut through the media coverage on the Dem candidates, John
Edwards' positions on health care, Iraq and corporations shine out.



A new year has begun. And before we've had a chance to break our New Year's resolutions, we find ourselves with a little more than 24 hours before the good people of Iowa tell us whom they would like to replace the man who now occupies three countries and a white house.

Twice before, we have begun the process to stop this man, and twice we have failed. Eight years of our lives as Americans will have been lost, the world left in upheaval against us ... and yet now, today, we hope against hope that our moment has finally arrived, that the amazingly powerful force of the Republican Party will somehow be halted. But we know that the Democrats are experts at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, and if there's a way to blow this election, they will find it and do it with gusto.

Do you feel the same as me? That the Democratic front-runners are a less-than-stellar group of candidates, and that none of them are the "slam dunk" we wish they were? Of course, there are wonderful things about each of them. Any one of them would be infinitely better than what we have now. Personally, Congressman Kucinich, more than any other candidate, shares the same positions that I have on the issues (although the UFO that picked me up would only take me as far as Kalamazoo). But let's not waste time talking about Dennis. Even he is resigned to losing, with statements like the one he made yesterday to his supporters in Iowa to throw their support to Senator Obama as their "second choice."

So, it's Hillary, Obama, Edwards -- now what do we do?

Two months ago, Rolling Stone magazine asked me to do a cover story where I would ask the hard questions that no one was asking in one-on-one interviews with Senators Clinton, Obama and Edwards. "The Top Democrats Face Off with Michael Moore." The deal was that all three candidates had to agree to let me interview them or there was no story. Obama and Edwards agreed. Mrs. Clinton said no, and the cover story was thus killed.

Why would the love of my life, Hillary Clinton, not sit down to talk with me? What was she afraid of?

Those of you who are longtime readers of mine may remember that 11 years ago I wrote a chapter (in my first book) entitled, "My Forbidden Love for Hillary." I was fed up with the treatment she was getting, most of it boringly sexist, and I thought somebody should stand up for her. I later met her and she thanked me for referring to her as "one hot s***kicking feminist babe." I supported and contributed to her run for the U.S. Senate. I think she is a decent and smart person who loves this country, cares deeply about kids, and has put up with more crap than anyone I know of (other than me) from the Crazy Right. Her inauguration would be a thrilling sight, ending 218 years of white male rule in a country where 51% of its citizens are female and 64% are either female or people of color.

And yet, I am sad to say, nothing has disappointed me more than the disastrous, premeditated vote by Senator Hillary Clinton to send us to war in Iraq. I'm not only talking about her first vote that gave Mr. Bush his "authorization" to invade -- I'm talking about every single OTHER vote she then cast for the next four years, backing and funding Bush's illegal war, and doing so with verve. She never met a request from the White House for war authorization that she didn't like. Unlike the Kerrys and the Bidens who initially voted for authorization but later came to realize the folly of their decision, Mrs. Clinton continued to cast numerous votes for the war until last March -- four long years of pro-war votes, even after 70% of the American public had turned against the war. She has steadfastly refused to say that she was wrong about any of this, and she will not apologize for her culpability in America's worst-ever foreign policy disaster. All she can bring herself to say is that she was "misled" by "faulty intelligence."

Let's assume that's true. Do you want a President who is so easily misled? I wasn't "misled," and millions of others who took to the streets in February of 2003 weren't "misled" either. It was simply amazing that we knew the war was wrong when none of us had been briefed by the CIA, none of us were national security experts, and none of us had gone on a weapons inspection tour of Iraq. And yet... we knew we were being lied to! Let me ask those of you reading this letter: Were you "misled" -- or did you figure it out sometime between October of 2002 and March of 2007 that George W. Bush was up to something rotten? Twenty-three other senators were smart enough to figure it out and vote against the war from the get-go. Why wasn't Senator Clinton?

I have a theory: Hillary knows the sexist country we still live in and that one of the reasons the public, in the past, would never consider a woman as president is because she would also be commander in chief. The majority of Americans were concerned that a woman would not be as likely to go to war as a man (horror of horrors!). So, in order to placate that mindset, perhaps she believed she had to be as "tough" as a man, she had to be willing to push The Button if necessary, and give the generals whatever they wanted. If this is, in fact, what has motivated her pro-war votes, then this would truly make her a scary first-term president. If the U.S. is faced with some unforeseen threat in her first years, she knows that in order to get re-elected she'd better be ready to go all Maggie Thatcher on whoever sneezes in our direction. Do we want to risk this, hoping the world makes it in one piece to her second term?

I have not even touched on her other numerous -- and horrendous -- votes in the Senate, especially those that have made the middle class suffer even more (she voted for Bush's first bankruptcy bill, and she is now the leading recipient of payoff money -- I mean campaign contributions -- from the health care industry). I know a lot of you want to see her elected, and there is a very good chance that will happen. There will be plenty of time to vote for her in the general election if all the pollsters are correct. But in the primaries and caucuses, isn't this the time to vote for the person who most reflects the values and politics you hold dear? Can you, in good conscience, vote for someone who so energetically voted over and over and over again for the war in Iraq? Please give this serious consideration.

Now, on to the two candidates who did agree to do the interview with me...

Barack Obama is a good and inspiring man. What a breath of fresh air! There's no doubting his sincerity or his commitment to trying to straighten things out in this country. But who is he? I mean, other than a guy who gives a great speech? How much do any of us really know about him? I know he was against the war. How do I know that? He gave a speech before the war started. But since he joined the Senate, he has voted for the funds for the war, while at the same time saying we should get out. He says he's for the little guy, but then he votes for a corporate-backed bill to make it harder for the little guy to file a class action suit when his kid swallows lead paint from a Chinese-made toy. In fact, Obama doesn't think Wall Street is a bad place. He wants the insurance companies to help us develop a new health care plan -- the same companies who have created the mess in the first place. He's such a feel-good kinda guy, I get the sense that, if elected, the Republicans will eat him for breakfast. He won't even have time to make a good speech about it.

But this may be a bit harsh. Senator Obama has a big heart, and that heart is in the right place. Is he electable? Will more than 50% of America vote for him? We'd like to believe they would. We'd like to believe America has changed, wouldn't we? Obama lets us feel better about ourselves -- and as we look out the window at the guy snowplowing his driveway across the street, we want to believe he's changed, too. But are we dreaming?

And then there's John Edwards.

It's hard to get past the hair, isn't it? But once you do -- and recently I have chosen to try -- you find a man who is out to take on the wealthy and powerful who have made life so miserable for so many. A candidate who says things like this: "I absolutely believe to my soul that this corporate greed and corporate power has an ironclad hold on our democracy." Whoa. We haven't heard anyone talk like that in a while, at least not anyone who is near the top of the polls. I suspect this is why Edwards is doing so well in Iowa, even though he has nowhere near the stash of cash the other two have. He won't take the big checks from the corporate PACs, and he is alone among the top three candidates in agreeing to limit his spending and be publicly funded. He has said, point-blank, that he's going after the drug companies and the oil companies and anyone else who is messing with the American worker. The media clearly find him to be a threat, probably because he will go after their monopolistic power, too. This is Roosevelt/Truman kind of talk. That's why it's resonating with people in Iowa, even though he doesn't get the attention Obama and Hillary get -- and that lack of coverage may cost him the first place spot in Iowa. After all, he is one of those white guys who's been running things for far too long.

And he voted for the war. But unlike Senator Clinton, he has stated quite forcefully that he was wrong. And he has remorse. Should he be forgiven? Did he learn his lesson? Like Hillary and Obama, he refused to promise in a September debate that there will be no U.S. troops in Iraq by the end of his first term in 2013. But this week in Iowa, he changed his mind. He went further than Clinton and Obama and said he'd have all the troops home in less than a year.

Edwards is the only one of the three front-runners who has a universal health care plan that will lead to the single-payer kind all other civilized countries have. His plan doesn't go as fast as I would like, but he is the only one who has correctly pointed out that the health insurance companies are the enemy and should not have a seat at the table.

I am not endorsing anyone at this point. This is simply how I feel in the first week of the process to replace George W. Bush. For months I've been wanting to ask the question, "Where are you, Al Gore?" You can only polish that Oscar for so long. And the Nobel was decided by Scandinavians! I don't blame you for not wanting to enter the viper pit again after you already won. But getting us to change out our incandescent light bulbs for some irritating fluorescent ones isn't going to save the world. All it's going to do is make us more agitated and jumpy and feeling like once we get home we haven't really left the office.

On second thought, would you even be willing to utter the words, "I absolutely believe to my soul that this corporate greed and corporate power has an ironclad hold on our democracy?" Because the candidate who understands that, and who sees it as the root of all evil -- including the root of global warming -- is the President who may lead us to a place of sanity, justice and peace.


seuss
mike for president!
tim
Michael's letter actually identifies Dennis Kucinich as the best candidate on the issues, with Edwards the best "electable" candidate. As a DK guy, I am reluctant to totally agree. But his assessment of the glaring flaws associated with Clinton and Obama are spot on.

sky of mind
QUOTE(tim @ Sunday, 6 January 2008, 10:13 am) *
Michael's letter actually identifies Dennis Kucinich as the best candidate on the issues, with Edwards the best "electable" candidate. As a DK guy, I am reluctant to totally agree. But his assessment of the glaring flaws associated with Clinton and Obama are spot on.




The fact that WE think Dennis OUTTA be elected are at this time, unrealistic,
because no matter how much Dennis is the real deal, he won't get elected.
Not without avery sudden and overwhelming grassroots appeal.Something on a level that has never ever happened.
That said, then the one ofthe top three closest to Dennis is, (IMO) Edwards.

The way I see it.If Edwards wins, he'll pull the entire country back to the left a little bit. As such it becaumes that much easier to elect a Dennis Kucinich. Obama is playing to the centrists. He will not much shift the countries political position and Hillary most definately will not.

Edwards is the man for real substantive change. Though having a black man as president could have such a far reaching effect that this fact alone may over shadow anything and everything Obama does as President. That single aspect alone may cause a fundamental shift. History will only tell that though.
maxanne
Moore endorses DK's health care plan - yet chooses pro-war Johnny. Yikes.

Let us not forget that last time out he endorsed Wesley Clark. rolleyes.gif
sky of mind
QUOTE(maxanne @ Sunday, 6 January 2008, 10:33 am) *
Moore endorses DK's health care plan - yet chooses pro-war Johnny. Yikes.

Let us not forget that last time out he endorsed Wesley Clark. rolleyes.gif




YOu really think that Edwards as President would not be good for the country,
and that most of what he says is only window dressing and outright lies?
Rousseau
Edwards is BLACK ??
maxanne
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Sunday, 6 January 2008, 1:37 pm) *
YOu really think that Edwards as President would not be good for the country,
and that most of what he says is only window dressing and outright lies?


I can't argue good or bad, sky. No matter who is in the White House, nothing much changes.

I do think that his rapid transformation into the near Kucinich is suspect. I think his health care plan is a
disaster that may destroy any chance we have of a single payer system.

You are far more willing to ignore him saying things like all options are on the table for Iran than I.


sky of mind
QUOTE(maxanne @ Sunday, 6 January 2008, 10:50 am) *
I can't argue good or bad, sky. No matter who is in the White House, nothing much changes.

Well then, if that's the case, why bother? Why are we even here discussing the values of one over the other?


I do think that his rapid transformation into the near Kucinich is suspect. I think his health care plan is a
disaster that may destroy any chance we have of a single payer system.

I can agree with the suspect, in, gotta keep an eye on him. But even so, of the top 3 he's the only one that sounds remotely like Dennis.

You are far more willing to ignore him saying things like all options are on the table for Iran than I.

No Ma'am. I'm not ignoring or forgetting anything. It's political expedience. Edwards will more likely take the country to a place, or closer to a place in which someday a man like Dennis might actually be a viable candidate.

I am certain this won't happen with Hillary, and very likely won't happen with Obama who plays to the center, which is as we know in fact more like a soft right.

seuss
QUOTE(maxanne @ Sunday, 6 January 2008, 1:33 pm) *
Moore endorses DK's health care plan - yet chooses pro-war Johnny. Yikes.

Let us not forget that last time out he endorsed Wesley Clark. rolleyes.gif


Obama seemed like he wanted to invade pakistan yesterday at last night's debate, and hillary would do it just to show how women can be hawks too... Of the top three, edwards seems the least pro war. He's the only one i really see having a chance that doesn't have an itchy trigger finger, even if he's a flopper. Fortunately, i get the chance to see how things go in the early states before i have to drop my ballot in the box, and I'd love to back kucinich, but had i been an iowan, I would have moved toward edwards @ caucus.
maxanne
QUOTE
I can't argue good or bad, sky. No matter who is in the White House, nothing much changes.


QUOTE(sky)
Well then, if that's the case, why bother? Why are we even here discussing the values of one over the other?


Aren't you the one who is always telling me how important it is to work within the party system?? I'm shocked that you would even ask me this question.

QUOTE
I can agree with the suspect, in, gotta keep an eye on him. But even so, of the top 3 he's the only one that sounds remotely like Dennis.


Yes, he has borrowed "liberally" from DK's platform. It's funny - in 2004 I found Edwards likeable and sincere. Being in NH, I had the chance to see him around. I got to hang with his wife - who rocks. Seeing Edwards in 2007 was very different. He isn't projecting that sincerity - and no wonder - what he's selling isn't really his.

QUOTE
No Ma'am. I'm not ignoring or forgetting anything. It's political expedience. Edwards will more likely take the country to a place, or closer to a place in which someday a man like Dennis might actually be a viable candidate.


More likely if he doesn't bomb Iran. More likely if he doesn't permanently fuck up single payer. More likely if he is what he now says he is.

QUOTE
I am certain this won't happen with Hillary, and very likely won't happen with Obama who plays to the center, which is as we know in fact more like a soft right.


Hard saying. I don't think there's all that much difference between 'em.
sky of mind
QUOTE(maxanne @ Sunday, 6 January 2008, 11:41 am) *
Aren't you the one who is always telling me how important it is to work within the party system?? I'm shocked that you would even ask me this question.



You said it doesn't matter and with the use of blatant sarcasm and juxtaposition I'm pointing out that clearly it does matter. Or maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say? I dunno.


The thing is Maxanne, we do agree much more than we don't.
As you said before, there's stilltime to make up your mind,
and still time for me to change mine.
seuss
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/bb/index...c=18083&hl=
sky of mind
QUOTE(seuss @ Sunday, 6 January 2008, 11:49 am) *




True story there.
Seems Dennis doesn't much care for either Edwards or Obama, even though both are far better than Hillary.
So, do you pick the guy with a monster hedge fund in spite of his anti-corporate campaign?
Or do you pick the guy who's campaign values aren't terribly progressive, but who does happen to be black?
maxanne
sky - convince me. Remind me of a positive huge national change - something that had profound impact on our nation - that has happened in the last 30 years.
sky of mind
QUOTE(maxanne @ Sunday, 6 January 2008, 12:10 pm) *
sky - convince me. Remind me of a positive huge national change - something that had profound impact on our nation - that has happened in the last 30 years.




Environmental awareness
maxanne
Okay - let me amend that. Remind me of a huge, positive change brought about by a US President/government in the last 30 years.
sky of mind
QUOTE(maxanne @ Sunday, 6 January 2008, 12:57 pm) *
Okay - let me amend that. Remind me of a huge, positive change brought about by a US President/government in the last 30 years.



At the moment I can't think of any, but even if the answer turns out to be zero,
giving in to it and accepting a mediocre status quo is not acceptable.

That is I believe, why this website and it's forum exists and why we are here, and you and I are discussing it.



Besides, I believe in 30 years good things have happened that were later negated. (see george bush)
But I don't have a list.
However, 30 years also seems to be about the number of years required for things to cycle politically.
Meaning, it's now time for new blood and for change.
Bluzfn5
Sometimes after reading this forum, I decide maybe I should just give up. Why even vote? It makes no difference! No viable candidate will loosen the corporate stranglehold over America!

Then, I give in and vote anyways as I have every election since I turned 18.

I would vote for DK in a heartbeat, and I just might in the primary here in Illinois. Yet, today's politics is really a chess match. The outcomes are probably already decided, but what the hell? I will play anyway.

Would Obama/Edwards or Edwards/Obama really bring true change to the country? probably not. Would they bring a better chance than ANY of the Republicans or Hillary? I think so. I am also afraid that people would vote across the board AGAINST Hillary which might make a difference in local/regional elections. I would like to see a more liberal/progressive House and Senate which is much more important than the Presidency IMO. Look at the Senate now. There really is no "Democratic Majority". The Dems need 60+ to have a true majority. I would like to see that happen. If Hillary was the Dem candidate people might vote straight tickets or against the other Dems to vote against her at the same time.

What does this mean? Well, it means that although Edwards/Obama are not much better than Hillary they are at least a little better, and would also give local candidates a much better chance of winning IMO

Realistically, DK has no chance. I do not want to throw away a vote at this point either. Currently, my main objective is to keep Hillary Clinton as far away from the Dem nomination as possible. Than it turns to keeping the Republican't nominee as far from the White House as possible as well.

Therefore, I will probably vote for Edwards in the primary. Obama is not the greatest candidate either, but I would take him over any of the GOPers. I also enjoyed watching Laura Ingraham squirm on Faux News while discussing him.

In addition, most polls I have seen show Obama and Edwards as the 2 best candidates to beat the leading Pubs. Moreso than DK and Hillbot.

Chess match, people. I want to win this round.

As Sky said, an Edwards/Obama presidency might nudge the country back to the left from the Bush/Cheney years....it would most certainly have to; leading to the viability of more progressive candidates in the future. I think it would also help in many of the local/regional elections as well and would hopefully bring more progressive/liberal candidates into the House and Senate.

Then again, what the hell do I know?
Boot
You know, I never much cared for Michael Moore, his tactics are just to abrasive to actually change many peoples minds.
karen
QUOTE(Bluzfn5 @ Monday, 7 January 2008, 12:22 pm) *
Then again, what the hell do I know?


Enough to make a reasoned choice judging by your post. thumbup.gif
sky of mind
Personally, I've always thought of Moore as a visionary.
Sometimes abrasive, as it his intention, as visionaries sometimes are.

In other words, if Mr Moore makes a recommendation, I'm gonna listen to him.
karen
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Monday, 7 January 2008, 2:15 pm) *
Personally, I've always thought of Moore as a visionary.
Sometimes abrasive, as it his intention, as visionaries sometimes are.

In other words, if Mr Moore makes a recommendation, I'm gonna listen to him.


Micheal's cool, and always worth listening to, IMO. thumbup.gif
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