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Full Version: Dems Hold all the Cards on Iraq, so why are they folding?
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AntiFlagWaver
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huff...on_b_63398.html

QUOTE
Remember earlier this summer when Harry Reid and the Democrats vowed they were "going to hold the president's feet to the fire" on Iraq? Well, now it appears they've decided to play footsie with the White House instead and take what one Democratic strategist calls "a more nuanced approach" that includes backing off demands to set a firm withdrawal date.

In anticipation of next weeks' inevitably sunny side up -- and statistically cherry-picked -- report from Gen. Petraeus, the White House has cranked up its spin machine, and the Democrats are falling into their default duck-and-cover mode.

So we get Bush hopping off a plane in Australia after his eight-hour photo-op layover in Iraq and telling the Deputy Prime Minister: "We're kicking ass" -- while Democratic leaders let it be known they are hoping "to manage expectations" by lowering their sights on Iraq.

Just last week, Reid was promising "I will not let these Republicans hide. When the Senate returns to Washington, I will force them to take vote, after vote, after vote on bringing an end to the war in Iraq."

"I can't believe how Democrats are playing this game," a Republican strategist told me the other night. "They hold all the cards -- and they are folding."


more....

While the resident cheerleader continues to jump up and down and do splits and holds up giant placards saying how good his Democrats are, we still are faced with the situation of a spineless Democratic Congress failing to do what they said, which is to end the Iraq War. This is a Democratic Issue and one for which the Democrats will be held accountable for come the next election. Never forget who the Democrats really are.
sky of mind
QUOTE(AntiFlagWaver @ Friday, 7 September 2007, 10:17 am) *
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huff...on_b_63398.html
more....

While the resident cheerleader continues to jump up and down and do splits and holds up giant placards saying how good his Democrats are, we still are faced with the situation of a spineless Democratic Congress failing to do what they said, which is to end the Iraq War. This is a Democratic Issue and one for which the Democrats will be held accountable for come the next election. Never forget who the Democrats really are.




Never forget who YOU are and what this is about.
This is not about the Democrats, it's about you making this personal.

For you, it's about me. You simply can't help yourself.



The issue is far more complicated than your brain can deal with.






Edit to add......


To the bitter end you are simply going to deny anything but your own Nihilism.
Even black and white facts as presented by an orginization that has been doing the facts for well over 50 years, and who have far more experience than you or any of us.

You simply have it hard wired in your brain that we are gonna lose, and you continue in your desperation looking for news and articles that might seem to reaffirm your negative and limited viewpoint.

Ordinarially I might be inclined to just let it go, because after all, you can't help it. But I also realize that this forum is a source of information and education for hundreds everyday, and as such I can't let your Nihilism ruin all the posative education that comes from our, (my) efforts. In other words, I feel compelled to make an attempt to counter all your Rovian, anti-Democratic counter spin, because the visitors don't know that your screwed up like we do.


http://oldamericancentury.org/bb/index.php...mp;#entry103408


Thank you for that Seuss.
This post shows quite nicely a depth of understanding than goes far beyond the ideologies of opposing teams.



Have the Dems failed us?
Perhaps, but we fail ourself far more completely when that becomes the focus of the issue.


seuss
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Friday, 7 September 2007, 11:20 am) *
Never forget who YOU are and what this is about.
This is not about the Democrats, it's about you making this personal.

For you, it's about me. You simply can't help yourself.
The issue is far more complicated than your brain can deal with.


mellow, kids, (announcement... I don't know anything. i'm still a child. When i call someone "kid' I mean it as a compliment - one who's still learning, and knows it,).

you both want the same things.
there are others out there who want your anger.
they don't want what you want.

don't give it to them.
seuss
QUOTE(seuss @ Friday, 7 September 2007, 11:33 am) *
mellow, kids, (announcement... I don't know anything. i'm still a child. When i call someone "kid' I mean it as a compliment - one who's still learning, and knows it,).

you both want the same things.
there are others out there who want your anger.
they don't want what you want.

don't give it to them.



PS: I'll never grow up.
AntiFlagWaver
QUOTE(seuss @ Friday, 7 September 2007, 9:33 am) *
you both want the same things.


For some reason I do not think is true. I want the Iraq War ended, yesterday. I do not make excuses for why it is not ended. I do not give a damn about a certain political party except that it acts in a way that I want it to act. My goal is not to build up and defend a certain political party. I do not frame every issue around a certain political party.

So no, I disagree that we both want the same things. Sky is not anti-war, although he pretends to be. This is all about the Democrats for him and always has been.
sky of mind
QUOTE(AntiFlagWaver @ Friday, 7 September 2007, 10:45 am) *
For some reason I do not think is true. I want the Iraq War ended, yesterday. I do not make excuses for why it is not ended. I do not give a damn about a certain political party except that it acts in a way that I want it to act. My goal is not to build up and defend a certain political party. I do not frame every issue around a certain political party.

So no, I disagree that we both want the same things. Sky is not anti-war, although he pretends to be. This is all about the Democrats for him and always has been.




You run awful close to slander with your accusations AFW.
Accusations based on assumption colored by your own negativity.
A lense through which you seem to see everything.



Your statements here are completely wrong. But then, considering the glasses you wear that's to be expected.
jmbrewr
kids settle down, Suess stop pulling your brother's hair....lol. Check it out BACK ON TOPIC
The reason the Dems haven't went after Bush is because #1 They know that they're a shoo-in in 2008 and nobody wants all that power that Bush has created to go to waste. #2 They don't want to seem like they're supporting terrorists. #3 If you look at the legislation that Bush has passed.....They can't challenge him. And the list goes on and on. Face it the cards are stacked against the Dems
Max-1
QUOTE(jmbrewr @ Saturday, 8 September 2007, 6:08 pm) *
kids settle down, Suess stop pulling your brother's hair....lol. Check it out BACK ON TOPIC
The reason the Dems haven't went after Bush is because #1 They know that they're a shoo-in in 2008 and nobody wants all that power that Bush has created to go to waste. #2 They don't want to seem like they're supporting terrorists. #3 If you look at the legislation that Bush has passed.....They can't challenge him. And the list goes on and on. Face it the cards are stacked against the Dems


Even while the cards may be stacked against the Dem's, how does it parse when the Dem's continue to allow this "deck" to be stacked against them? Pretty fucking pathetic, IMHO. Some opposition Party they make: The 'Yes-'em masta' clan.
sky of mind
Read it again.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cq/20070904/pl_cq_...i1qACrCOyf4R9AF


And try to stay relevant.
POAC



sidenote: Part of the reason for the dems caving on domestic spying was a deal struck preventing Bush from recess appointing anyone while they were on vacation.
Max-1
QUOTE(POAC @ Sunday, 9 September 2007, 8:05 pm) *
sidenote: Part of the reason for the dems caving on domestic spying was a deal struck preventing Bush from recess appointing anyone while they were on vacation.


They compromised OUR freedoms for THEIR sense of security.
sky of mind
QUOTE(Max-1 @ Sunday, 9 September 2007, 8:44 pm) *
They compromised OUR freedoms for THEIR sense of security.




Perhaps.

But this bit of before unknown information does illustrate very well that we don't always have all the information.
That it's all too easy to assume.



What I see in this information that seems to have you feeling all indignant,
is politicians being politicians.
From what I've been able to gather, this whole deal had several switches and changes at last minutes, and the members of congress were unable to be fully aware of everything in the bill. This is exactly the reason Paul said he voted against it. Because he didn't know what was in it. Recall that very soon after it passed, many of the Democratic leadership seemed to be quite livid, as if they had been hornswaggled by a salesman dressed in plaid.

Now I'm not saying the situation is OK, and I'm not saying the Dems didn't blow it.
I AM saying that we outta be more careful about what we assume, especially when given contradictory facts!


It's OK to be mad,
But if yer an honorable person you outta wanna be mad at the correct people, for the correct reasons.
And be very careful with assumptions.
POAC
QUOTE(Max-1 @ Sunday, 9 September 2007, 9:44 pm) *
They compromised OUR freedoms for THEIR sense of security.


Yes. But the approval was temporary pending future review. Still inexcusable. Should have refused the vacation and continued working.
sky of mind
QUOTE(POAC @ Sunday, 9 September 2007, 9:42 pm) *
Yes. But the approval was temporary pending future review. Still inexcusable. Should have refused the vacation and continued working.




The Iraqi Congress also should have.
How many Americans died while they were on vacation?
Celticrebel
Let us also keep something else relevant, Congress is chugging along at approval ratings that are less than ideal as well:


http://www.pollingreport.com/CongJob.htm

Looking at the numbers from 8/1 through September the low is 18% the high is 25%

Granted its for both D's and R's, but when in the majority it would seem to reflect more on that party than overall.

sky of mind
QUOTE(Celticrebel @ Monday, 10 September 2007, 11:15 pm) *
Let us also keep something else relevant, Congress is chugging along at approval ratings that are less than ideal as well:
http://www.pollingreport.com/CongJob.htm

Looking at the numbers from 8/1 through September the low is 18% the high is 25%

Granted its for both D's and R's, but when in the majority it would seem to reflect more on that party than overall.




It is quite normal for the congress to have low ratings.
They ususally have negative ratings.

Because the congress is a collection of politics ranging from the extremes.
There will always be negativity and dissaproval.

Can't win if you do, can't win if you don't!
jmbrewr
Look,
Like the American people, the Iraqi's, and the Afgan's; Congress has been duped. The Dems don't hold all the cards on Iraq because Bush is using a different deck. Congress has been making decisions based on intelligence reports put out by the Bush administration. Bush has managed to convince congress that if they challenged what he did they would be unpatriotic. Bush created legislation through signing statements that render the legislative branch helpless. Bush created another branch of government that is being run outside of the constitution and have no legislative or judicial oversite. Even if one was to begin to base their decisions on the constitution, Bush has already managed to put the restraints on them and would render the constitution useless. BOTTOM LINE: THEY'RE SCARED OF BUSH!!!
sky of mind
QUOTE(jmbrewr @ Tuesday, 11 September 2007, 3:40 pm) *
BOTTOM LINE: THEY'RE SCARED OF BUSH!!!




Scared of the worlds biggest loser?
Scared of a man who has never been in charge of any successful endeavor?
Scared of a man that possesses a reverse midas touch?
Scared of just about the only person in Bush's cabinet(s) not a member of the original PNAC?



Now, let's talk about Dick Cheney........
seuss
QUOTE(jmbrewr @ Tuesday, 11 September 2007, 4:40 pm) *
Look,
Like the American people, the Iraqi's, and the Afgan's; Congress has been duped. The Dems don't hold all the cards on Iraq because Bush is using a different deck. Congress has been making decisions based on intelligence reports put out by the Bush administration. Bush has managed to convince congress that if they challenged what he did they would be unpatriotic. Bush created legislation through signing statements that render the legislative branch helpless. Bush created another branch of government that is being run outside of the constitution and have no legislative or judicial oversite. Even if one was to begin to base their decisions on the constitution, Bush has already managed to put the restraints on them and would render the constitution useless. BOTTOM LINE: THEY'RE SCARED OF BUSH!!!


Look, the democrats fucked up, but I doubt its because they're scared. They're all being paid by the same interests, if not in money, in favors and positioning. There may be some democrats in office that are worth their weight in copper, but there are a hell of a lot more liebermans in politics than are letting on. Sorting out who's honest and who isn't is next to impossible - politicians, by trade, are decietful, and the only way around it is to do your reasearch and vote your conscience. Until we actually have an electorate who goes to the polls informed, and makes sure that their vote is recorded properly, we're gonna keep having assholes that sell us out when its important. It doesn't matter whether they're democrats or republicans.
seuss
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Wednesday, 12 September 2007, 8:18 am) *



http://tinyurl.com/2fdjrz (poac headline)
QUOTE
ABC News: The Blotter
On Heels of 9/11, Clinton Fundraiser Raises Eyebrows
September 11, 2007 12:02 PM

Justin Rood Reports:

Just days after the sixth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks, Hillary Clinton and several Democratic lawmakers will be getting uncomfortably cozy with moneyed interests who have stood to reap billions in post-9/11 homeland security spending, watchdog groups say.

On the sixth anniversary of the attacks which killed nearly 3,000 people, Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton is slated to attend a sober memorial service near Manhattan's Ground Zero.

One week later, the junior New York senator is scheduled to speak at a homeland security-themed, $1,000-a-plate fundraiser for her campaign in the downtown Washington, D.C. offices of a powerful legal firm.

"Being a week after 9/11, it appears unseemly and politically opportunistic," said Steve Ellis, a former Coast Guard officer who is now vice president of Taxpayers for Common Sense, a Washington, D.C. good government group.

Clinton's fundraising audience is expected to include many of the government contractors and lobbyists whose fortunes have soared in the years since the attacks, which triggered a massive government reorganization and billions in new government spending.

But that's not the only objectionable feature of the event, critics say.

For the price of a ticket -- from a $1,000 personal donation to a $25,000 bundle –- attendees will get a special treat after the luncheon: an opportunity to participate in small, hour-long "breakout sessions" hosted by key Democratic lawmakers, many of whom chair important subcommittees on the Homeland Security committee.


"It's an outrage," said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Washington, D.C. good-government group Project on Government Oversight.

"You never want to see lawmakers trading on their national security credentials...to people making large donations," Ellis concurred.

The break-out sessions include:

First Responders, with Reps. Henry Cuellar, Texas (chair, Emergency Communications, Preparedness, and Response Subcommittee of Homeland Security Committee) and Nita Lowey, N.Y. (Appropriations, Homeland Security Committee)

Intelligence and Information Sharing, with Reps. Jane Harman, Calif. (chair, Intelligence, Information Sharing and Terrorism Risk Assessment Subcommittee of Homeland Security Committee) and C. A. "Dutch" Ruppersburger, Md. (chair, Technical and Tactical Intelligence Subcommittee of intelligence committee)

Border, Maritime and Global Counterterrorism, with Reps. Sheila Jackson Lee, Texas (chair, Transportation Security and Infrastructure Protection Subcommittee of Homeland Security Committee) and Jerrold Nadler, N.Y. (Transportation and Infrastructure Committee; Judiciary Committee)

Science and Technology, with Reps. Jim Langevin, R.I. (chair, Emerging Threats, Cybersecurity, Science and Technology Subcommittee of Homeland Security Committee; intelligence committee) and Ellen Tauscher, Calif. (chair, Strategic Forces Subcommittee of Armed Services Committee)

National Security, with Reps. Kendrick Meek, Fla. (Armed Services Committee) and Joseph Sestak, Pa. (Armed Services Committee)

"Political fundraising should have no relationship to policy recommendations," said Brian, a former policy analyst for Congress. "Most of these [participants] are seasoned policymakers. How can they not see this as wrong?" It only made things worse, she said, that the event was centered around so sensitive and vital a topic as homeland security.

The Clinton campaign and most lawmakers participating in the event did not respond to requests for comment for this story.

One participant, Rep. C. A. "Dutch" Ruppersberger, D-Md., said he didn't see anything wrong with the event.

"I very strongly feel that it's time we get politics out of national security," he said in an interview Monday. "It's more important than ever that we keep discussing national security."

"The unfortunate part of our [political] system is that to get your message out, you have to raise money," Ruppersberger said. "Until that system is changed, you have to have the ability to raise money so people know what you are and who you are."


sky of mind
Before you can do reasonable battle with the enemy with any hopes for progress,
first one must understand the enemy.


I'm wondering if George knows yet what is the difference between a Shiite and Sunni?
After all, they're both Muslims.
Can we tell which Democrats lean Right and which ones lean Left?
After all, they're both Democrats.
seuss
QUOTE(sky of mind @ Wednesday, 12 September 2007, 11:08 am) *
Before you can do reasonable battle with the enemy with any hopes for progress,
first one must understand the enemy.
I'm wondering if George knows yet what is the difference between a Shiite and Sunni?
After all, they're both Muslims.
Can we tell which Democrats lean Right and which ones lean Left?
After all, they're both Democrats.



my point exactly.
what i'd love to see is an accounting of Congressional democratic votes on bills, but before and after majority has beeen established - like the most recent war funding bill, where obama and clinton voted after it actually mattered.
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