What the hell are we going to do if it is Clinton Vs. Giuliani in 2008? The primaries are coming so early this time around and if these two can hold onto their leads, we are fucked. I can not vote for either of these people. What if these two monsters are the nominees? Can you imagine. That is a lose-lose situation. What do we do?

Learn to live with Hillary I guess. She's not ideal, but it's not like she's as bad as Bush or Giuliani, not by a longshot.

Vote for a third party.

Gawd Jack. You had to know I would read this thread you posted, and as such, Guess what I'm gonna tell ya to do?











Move to Australia of course. DOH!

Redstate patriot huh?

If Clinton is president, she is going to be torn apart on a daily basis. Imagine if the republicans (perhaps through some kind of magic) retake congress while she is president. Holy shit. Talk about a blood bath.

It seems like Florida is just itching to be first state to hold it's primary. Florida has already shown that it's electoral process cannot be trusted. It's infested with NeoCons. Out of the Dem candidates, the NeoCons most support Hillary and know that they also have the most ammo to use against her to defeat her - or at least make it so close they can steal it.

Yeah, it's gonna be Hillary.

I think Fred Thompson will edge out Guiliana before it's all over. He has more right-wing charisma -the southern drawl, the confrontational self confidence, the booming assertive voice- and that's what Republicans look at when picking their candidate more than issues or substance.

Fred vs. Hill is still a lose-lose.

I'm going to Canada.

What's the name of the Conservative Bush lover the Canadians just elected to urinate all over everything?

I think it'll end up being Clinton and Romney. We'll just have to hope she's the closet liberal that so many conservatives think she is. That said, Kucinich will get my primary vote. Of the truly viable candidates I like Edwards.

She's a Corporate Liberal. That may not please us much, but it's a whole hell of a lot better than Romney.

Putting a label on what kinda president Hillary might be could be a moot point. There're some people who won"t vote for her just because she's a woman. Beyond that she splits the Democrats, many liberals will refuse to vote for her. She'll also rally Republicans in a way that no one else could, bringing them out in droves. Throw in some good old Republican election fixing and we're really screwed.

Very good points, plus throw in Seuss's point that if elected she'll be a constant target of the Republicans,
it could get very interesting.


The only saving grace I see in all that, is that both the congress and the administration will be of the same party,
though I don't see it as a break through for Progressives.

She's a corporatist warmonger who's bought and paid for. And for this you excuse her with a BUT?

If she wins you can count on at least four more years of this status quo. If what we have now pleases you then by all means, excuse her.

I can not!

Max,

Did I offer one word of excuse OTHER than exactly what I said?

You better stop putting words where they never were, or I won't like you anymore!






I said EXACTLY what I wanted to say, and I mean exactly what I said.





What would YOU do if given the choice, Clinton or Romney?
And if you say third party, your credibility is trash.

We aren't even there yet so why must we play this guessing game?

Who knows, maybe there will be a third party!

And maybe I am trash... who cares? Why does that matter?

I would prefer Kucinich to Clinton over Romney, if you get what I mean.

Yep, and I completely agree with you.

So why aren't we talking about Kucinich vs. Romney?

Sorry Jack to hijack the thread.

I'm a bad TROLL...

But really, to even acknowledge a Hillary win over Kucinich is well... counterintuitive and nonproductive to getting Kucinich elected.

Because it's a reality, and since we educated and aware Progressives make the decidion to not stick our head in the ground,
we must talk about Hillary.

Ignoring her will not make her go away, and rooting for Dennis will not make him win.
Simple fact is, nation wide Hillary is always the top or near the top of the polls,
while Dennis is the bottom or near the bottom of the polls.
That's not the way I might like it to be, but thems the facts!



If the polls were close, even just kinda close, then it might actually be worth the effort.
But it's not close, not even kinda, so, IMO, we outta make the most of what is more likely, not even close.

Sky, really.

Your pragmatism has you denying the very truths you SAY you support.

Your lack of conviction and positive thought is showing. You've actually COMPROMISED AGAIN and have become resigned to an imagined fate. You act like the race is over. Have you quit, sky? Because you've all but done given in to your fears.

Hillary is a threat. Treat her like one, least she WILL be your next president, Sky. Unless you really, REALLY WANT HER like you allude you do.

Like I said, your lack of convictions is showing through your conflicted support; Filled with so much disbelief.

Max,

Conviction takes a back seat to reality and the simple, plain, facts.


Sorry, but disneyland is closed

so, you're gonna be voting hillary in the primaries, then?

I wouldn't count anyone out until they're over.

Gore could still get into this thing - can you imagine how quickly clinton's numbers would plummet if/when he did?

Oh no, that was NOT the question!

As I have already said, in the primaries I'll vote for Kucinich.
THIS is the place to hope for miracle, NOT the primaries!

Sky, sometimes people just hear what they want to hear.

This is true, but I won't let then dissuade me from saying what I need to say.
I been married before. Some lessons come harder than others.

Interesting analogy. Your marriage to this board...

It's a marriage that lasts until one of us gets tired of the other.
In other words, there is no commitment other than respect.

Being number 3, just behind POAC himself makes you part of the harem.

Hahahaha. That is disturbing in so many ways. Well done.

IMHO, if THAT is the ONLY choice, we vote for Clinton.

Personally I think she blows goats. Who in their right mind would vote for ANYONE who voted FOR a made-up war either WITHOUT reading the intelligence dossier, or voting FOR a made-up war AFTER reading the intelligence dossier?

I will say something FOR Hillary tho...she is quick to respond when the trolls start flapping their lips, unlike Kerry.

Already we hear the neocons pushing for Clinton as if they will really relish taking her on...what a convoluted and sad political system we have here....

Good to hear from you Natch! Your brother could use your help here a little more often y'know. How come it says you're a newbie?

I think "Mr. Natural" may have been somebody else. Multiple Crumb fans here.

Nope, same guy.
Lost his pass word but instead of asking TJ, he just made a new name.



By the way.
Natural is the aged hippy, and several clicks to the left of me.

Jack - if those are the choices, we'd all best butch up and get ready for President Guiliani.

If Hillary is the nominee, the Democrats will lose.

With K Rove on the loose, that's a serious possibility.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070819/ap_po/...gXu4_o.aXKs0NUE


Rove keeps up heat on Clinton
By DEB RIECHMANN, Associated Press Writer
Sun Aug 19, 5:38 PM ET



CRAWFORD, Texas - Master GOP strategist Karl Rove won't let up in his attacks on Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Rodham Clinton, but the intriguing question is why.

Is it a sign that Rove, who masterminded Bush's two presidential victories, is worried about Clinton? Or a calculation that the GOP attacks will get Democrats to rally to her side because the GOP would prefer not to take on Democrats John Edwards or Barack Obama?

"The Democrats are going to choose a nominee. I believe it's going to be her," President Bush's departing political adviser said Sunday, noting her negative rating with the public is very high.

He appeared on three Sunday talk shows after announcing last week he was leaving the White House at the end of the month to spend more time with his family.

Asked why he was helping Clinton by saying she would headline the ticket, Rove said: "Didn't know that I was. Don't think that I am."

Then he harshly criticized Clinton, saying more people have an unfavorable than favorable opinion of the New York senator and former first lady.

"She enters the general election campaign with the highest negatives of any candidate in the history of the Gallup poll," Rove said.

"It just says people have made an opinion about her. It's hard to change opinions once you've been a high-profile person in the public eye, as she has for 16 or 17 years." In a USA Today-Gallup poll this month, 49 percent viewed Clinton unfavorably compared to 35 percent unfavorable for Obama and 34 percent unfavorable for Edwards. Clinton's favorable score in that poll was 47 percent.

Rove might be revisiting his 2004 play book. Bush's re-election team aimed its harshest comments at Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, the eventual nominee, because it wanted Bush to take on Kerry rather than Edwards, then a senator from North Carolina.

The Los Angeles Times on Sunday reported that Bush's former pollster and strategist Matthew Dowd said at a 2004 Harvard University conference that Bush's re-election team went after Kerry because they were more afraid of Edwards.

Asked whether he was attacking Clinton because the GOP feared Obama, Rove replied: "I read that in the LA Times this morning. Those, those guys out in LA have got to get clued in. I mean, come on."

Asked for his opinions on Obama, Rove demurred.

"I've said enough," he said.

Rove said the GOP's chances in 2008 may be helped by the high negative ratings for Clinton and for the Democratic-led Congress. Congress' approval in an Associated Press-Ipsos poll this month stood at 25 percent, compared with 35 percent for Bush.

After Rove announced he was leaving the White House, he had traveled with Bush to his Texas ranch Monday, then left Friday after a GOP barbecue for more than 300 big donors from around the nation.

At a Democratic debate in Iowa on Sunday, Clinton responded to Rove's criticism.

"I don't think Karl Rove is going to endorse me, but I find it interesting that he's obsessed with me," she said.

She said no candidate will escape the "Republican attack machine," and added: "I know how to beat them."

Last week, Clinton's campaign ran a television ad saying struggling families and U.S. troops are "invisible" to Bush. White House deputy press secretary Dana Perino called that "unconscionable." Rove said that was laughable.

On other issues, Rove:

_Blamed congressional Democrats for standing in the way of changing Social Security and immigration law, two important pieces of Bush's second-term domestic policy that fizzled. Democratic leaders didn't want to give Bush a "political victory," Rove said.

_Said he doesn't think he owes an apology to Valerie Plame whose CIA employment was revealed by newspaper columnist Robert Novak's in 2003, shortly after her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, began criticizing the administration's march to war in Iraq. Rove said he talked to Novak about Plame, but said he did not confirm that she worked for the CIA — only that he, too, had heard that she did.

_Predicted that Democratic-led investigations into U.S. attorney firings and other matters would follow him after he departs the White House — a decision he insisted was not in response to probes on Capitol Hill. "They'll keep after me," he said.

_Admitted that the GOP is suffering. "Is the Republican Party a little bit behind the curve? You bet," he said.

Rove appeared on "Fox News Sunday," NBC's "Meet the Press" and CBS' "Face the Nation."

A year ago, I would have agreed that Clinton would be a sure loser in the 2008 election.

But knowing what I know today, and having seen the pathetic showing the GOP has to offer, I am pretty confident the next President will be a Democrat, Hillary or otherwise.

You guys give Rove and the GOP scum too much credit. What can they really say that hasn't been said already?

Giuliani will get destroyed in the general election IF he gets the nomination. You heard it here first.