There is audio/cockpit tape, you can't see the actual hit but you can hear the main gun fire and the reactions of the crew when they are told they fired on friendlies (British tank)

The fog of war. It's why you don't wage it like its a video game. Think of all the incidents that have been covered up, probably hundreds I'd guess.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,11021-10043,00.html

Is there a point? I mean, you implied cover-up, hundreds more....to what purpose?

The ugly reality of war, or playing with really big toys that make real big booms, is that innocent get hurt almost as often as guilty.
This simple reality is just ONE reason why war is supposed to be the option of very last resort. Iraq was elective surgery, and should not have been covered by the American Tax payers national war plan.

Yes there have been cover ups. There's the Pat Tillman deal. But the fact of cover up really is not the issue here. That just what happens, sometimes. The REAL issue is that these people should NOT have been in this situation for this accident to happen!

But they are there and the fact that they shouldnt be doesnt change it. That dog has been kicked and quit breathing awhile ago. Just seems to me to be a shot at the military and the people thrown into a situation where if they win, they lose, and if they lose, they lose. I just personally hate seeeing this "oh by the way, look how the military fucked up" sanctimonious bullshit. And then the "cover up comment" just threw a wrench into my sensabilities. While I don't expect anyone to understand or agree, there are times when the truth is hard to get at and even others where the truth should NOT be told to the general public. They are not the bad guys and unless one has been there, judgement should be reserved until ALL facts are out. Assuming there are "hundreds" of cover ups...is an assumption that should not be made in public. I dont see the point in kicking the military. Certainly, my view is jaundiced and disagreemnt is certain from most corners.

To what purpose? REfusing to accept responsibility that war is not a video game. There have been lots of reports of greiving parents being told by soldiers that their sons and daughters died in other ways than the official report stated they were KIA.

Do I believe there are at least a hundred deaths of either civilians, U.S. Army soldiers or coalition forces that are deliberately falsified by the Pentagon?

Damn right I do.

And that part of the point should have been included more prominently in my rant.
The part about war sucks, and in war, shit happens, etc etc.

Does anyone make the accusation of deliberate friendly fire? (Fratricide)


I agree with you Abell, even though clearly and for obvious reasons, your view is bound to have a personal bent to it.
Even so for sometime now I have cautioned against blaming the members of the military instead of those who make the decisions.

Means in THIS forum, Abell gets the rare honor of being the Rebel!




Comes down to this....

We don't need to blame the members of the military simply because they are easy targets for blame.
and
This is a free and open society. We're supposed to ask questions. Even if the asking makes some people uneasy.

The purpose of the coverup is political.

Send a guy home in a body bag with a story about him being brutally killed by enemies, and the sentiment of the family will probably be "Proof that they're evil and we're doing the right thing by fighting."

Tell them the friendly fire story and they might start to think "Our military is somewhat confused about whom to shoot; maybe they shouldn't be over there."


You learned to fight on a video game, hurroo, hurroo
You learned to fight on a video game, hurroo, hurroo
You learned to fight on a video game
Then they sent you that place with a foreign name
Where the friends and enemies look the same
Johnny I hardly knew ya.

cover up can also be about protecting a persons stripes, because when shit happens, someone has to be to blame.

And as I have stated, the fact that they are in the position for this accident to happen at all, is the root cause and where to look for blame.

Stripes don't get protected. Stripes, chevrons, the insignia of the enlisted man, get thrown to the wolves to save the brass. And with speculation should come investigation. Thirty years after the My Lai massacre, we learned that it was one of many such incidents, and anything but anomalous. If the American people knew fully what was being done in their (our) name, and how, we might not want it done. And if we all pretend that incidents like the aforementioned blue-on-blue fatality don't take place, nobody has to learn from their mistakes because nobody's making any. The military must always be answerable to those they serve.

Yes they do. More often than not in these situations, there isnt some vicious killer or loose cannon haphazardly killing his own men or allies....just mistakes from bottom to top or top to bottom. It could be being at the wrong place at the wrong time, wrong Commo, wrong pass word, wrong many things. While killing one of your own is a tragic, generally....the men doing the killing bare a cross of some magnitude for life. And it never becomes lighter, never becomes easier to carry, never goes away, and never ceases to crease the soul. The tragedy is doubled. Tripled when family members learn of it and find the magnified senselessness of the death. One fine old man who was father to a KIA whom I was with, and I was at the funeral told me.."I don't want to know how he died or if it was friendly fire or enemy fire, I cant handle hating this any more than I already do". And so it was.......

That's why one of those pilots can be heard saying "Dude, we're in prison"


Those who are ultimately responsible, are never held to account.

War is hell. This is given.

Here is the widow's version during an interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4PM85YP4Y0

Talk about taking the highroad!!!

She lost her husband to American forces. She was then lied to by the American military. If I were in her shoes, I would be screaming from the highest rooftops that he was killed by friendly fire and those responsible need to stand trial.

It's nice to know that the US has already whitewashed the whole affair.

and yet, here we are discussing it.

Yea, burn em at the stake. Bloodthirsty fuckers they are...

Friendly fire (is that an oxymoron ?) happens, thats part of war. More British troops were KIA in GW 1 by Americans (!!) than by Iraqis, but all you can do is try to give your troops the best possible training (and bone up a HECK of a lot their target recognition skills...) and ensure that the co-ordination is top level between all allied forces in the combat zone. Even better is to not go to war for oil and lies, but, well, nobodies perfect.

If you thought this was bad, wait till the draftees steam in as the war front widens to encompass the planet. It won't JUST be "Friendly fire" then, it'll be "Happy Massacres".....


As an aside, I found the professionalism and tactics of the Warthog pilots appalling, circling a target, recieving NO Anti Aircraft or hostile fire, then attacking when they were unsure of the target and couldn't agree Friend or Foe, and had only inaccurate info from base and NO GO to attack !! Doh.
My humble opinion is they should have stood off, received confirm, then gone in low and fast once confirm had been given and ID was positive. If they had been Iraqi AFV's they would have been breaking for cover the second the A-10's hove into view !!! You wouldn't NEED confirm then... (unless the Brit's are getting into the habit of Cowboy Yank pilots shooting at them, then having their brass cover their dumb asses ? )

Perhaps, as Abell so well illustrates, this is a bit extreme.
On the other hand, is it wise to not openly acknowlege what really happened?

Rousseau,

The US covered up this story for four years.

Here is what the Americans think about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKDzTHvKRgw

Here you have the American point of view, and I'm sure that most who post here feel the same. This is the among the typical American response that I'm sure most of the posters here probably support 100%. They don't have a clue, and this guy represents it.

Toeg, I seriously doubt what you say on several levels.

1. I do not think anyone considers the pilot a hero for what he did. I don't. And if I don't, (the far right element of the board) I can't imagine why anyone else would or could. I couldnt declare killing friendlies anything BUT a fuck up. It may or may not have been a act of disobediance. If it was, his co-pilot (gunner) said it best...we're going to jail......and they should.
2. The man who was interviewed was, and is...a fucking dolt. Self righteous belief that...By God, Americans can't make mistakes isnt as common a belief as you make it. Strange that you would place everyone in the same mold as him.

Dude, I don't quite get you sometimes. Your thinking takes on an erratic pattern. The only common identifier being....you are right and others are wrong.

QUOTE

Here you have the American point of view, and I'm sure that most who post here feel the same. This is the among the typical American response that I'm sure most of the posters here probably support 100%. They don't have a clue, and this guy represents it.

What you have said above indicates that everyone who posted on this topic are as the man who was interviewed. No one who posted is taking a position anywhere resembling what you characterize. Pretty much you have said...."Everyone here is fucking stupid and mindless". Yes? All except you, eh?

Sometimes, Toeg....your fucked up as a soup sandwich.

I gotta hand it to the military types of the world.
From them I learn all degrees of colorful uses for the english language.

My dear Toeg, this brain-dead bumpkin is not, thankfully, "the voice of America", because if he was, then you've already lost. He is a classic example of a sheeple, who has wallowed in the FUX News and neocon filth until he doesn't know his "arse from his elbow", to quote my English friends, and, despite being a "vet", obviously had his brains shot out in 'Nam.
I haven't seen any posts here that reflect this mushroom. (Kept in the dark and fed bullshit...)

I would guess that the Brit reporter interviewed a ton of people, until he found this specimen. Sadly, jerks like this exist, which is why, coupled with Diesucka voting machines, and generalised stupidity and apathy, the neocons rule the roost in the US today.

BTW, whose side are YOU on ?

I have not been in every country of the world, but I have been in a few.
Even so, logic tells me that it would be a safe bet to make to wager that yo can find people just like this in all countries,
that the US does not own a monopoly on stupid.

What is represented poorly in this little film is a sample of a human being who just happens to be American.
If this is your proof, then the world really could be flat and the moon landings could have been faked!

Wha...? you mean the Earth ISN'T flat ???

The Moon landings may NOT have been faked in a the Nevada desert !!??

What could this MEAN ?!

What could this MEAN for Toeg's CREDIBILITY ? (thats like Hillibility, but without the hillbilly, no ?)

Its an art.....

Do you really expect people to take you seriously when you make such inaccurate generalizations as this one?

Yes, there are alot of people who listen to Rush Limpdick and Sean Hannity but they are not a majority of Americans. I'd be willing to bet that NO ONE on this forum, with the possible exception of Abell, would agree with that clown who was interviewed.

There folks are the Bush base, alot of Vietnam veterans are staunch Republicans and many parrot the line "killing terrorists" no matter where American bombs drop. Even if we are creating more terrorists in the process, or firing on coalition forces.

Some of its psychological, for fighting in a war we couldn't win in Vietnam and now that frustration manifests itself in shrieking about how important it is we "win" in Iraq.

And neither can Iraq be won. And these people, like the man interviewed, will remain in denial until the bitter end, but that opinion is NOT shared by this forum, and I'm reasonably sure you already know that.

Don't compare us with the 28% of Americans who think Bush is doing a good job. You should know better, and probably do.

I strongly suspect we're gettin closer to the truth here

Danny, how do I say this like a good Christian man? Fuck off and die. There. Just like a good christian man.

(Please note:)

QUOTE

What you have said above indicates that everyone who posted on this topic are as the man who was interviewed. No one who posted is taking a position anywhere resembling what you characterize. Pretty much you have said...."Everyone here is fucking stupid and mindless". Yes? All except you, eh?

Sometimes, Toeg....your fucked up as a soup sandwich.

A master of verbal and written parlay wrote the above. Envied by many but not read by enough. Sheesh....

Sorry Abell. I did read it.
You may or may not be described accurately by what I said.

No offense intended (you probably don't believe that) but it's true. Seriously.

Heres the deal: Alot of Vietnam veterans are like the guy in the video. You likely have alot more common sense (I shouldn't judege ther man in the video based on a few sentences), but that does not exclude you from at least being partially in agreement with him, as a veteran yourself and someone who once supported Bush.

Taking this theory one step father, there will be another generation of veterans who fought a war in Iraq for all the wrong reasons and they TOO will become staunch Republicans someday and blame the problems so obviously caused by the Bush Admin. on someone else (media/Democrats/political correctness) and the vicious cycle will be perpetuated. Those voting for those who sacrificed them at the altar of corporate greed and lies.

I know you are alot smarter and more insightful than alot of right-leaning Vietnam veterans. I don't know the man in the videos political stance but I'm about 95% sure he votes Republican. It's why I made a very lose connection between the two of you.

Again, no offense intended (even if the "fuck off and die" comment was a bit over the top)

Mr Abell, is not above the occasional mind game for sport, and he does have a playful wit to him.
Recall that he related that at one time he threated to jam his tongue into his kids ear, and the simple threat was well received.
I believe he was messin wif ya, while at the same time making his point.
Besides, for someone who consistantly claims to be a Texas Military Redneck, he's becoming an old timer on a liberal forum.

Actually, ....I didnt take offense at it and fuck off and die is in my world, terms of endearment.

Your always going to have to have the ones who live on a line of judgement in this country. While their judgements are harsh and at times baseless, its what they are and what they will be. His wife was likely a "Yes, Dear" type who was in the Leave it to Beaver era. I know hundreds like him. The dividing line? My wife was an Army Officer (Nurse) and does NOT say...."Yes, Dear".

How kind of you to make such a broad judgement of me and my peers. How many of us have you spoken with on the issue?

Yep....saw that one coming....

I would have to say that the Viet Nam era vets are not as "Republicanized" as some may think, Danny. Lifers ...maybe but there were a whole lot of "Hey YOU...get your gun types as well as others who came in to serve their 3-4 years and walked away completely pissed off. That could well be a majority.....

I should say that if there is a trait shared by most Viet Nam veterans, it is that we dislike being stereotyped.

Actually, and quite honestly, very few of us like being pigeon holed.
The grand assumption tends to leave me out! Clearly I am me, and not them!

Online or in real life?

Gee, what a baseless accusation, I mean, after all the letters to the editor I've read in my local paper, after browsing through a plethora of military forums (Abell knows which ones, you don't) and after hearing those same sentiments repeated ad nauseum from a host of Vietnam veterans online, at work, and throughout much of the military community (I have friends in the NG) I think that it's an accurate judgement.

I don't make sweeping judgements, and of course would never say that all Vietnam vets feel that way, or that all Bush supporters are stupid.

Someone will always get torqued over such statements, that's life.

Gee Abell, this whole time I had thought you visited military dot com before. And your buddy Greenhat's forum too.

Yep, I do. If you go to most Military forums where some of the Viet Vets come, you will notice that as a percentage, they are outnumbered 30, 40, 50-1 to current active or post Viet era soldiers. Maybe even higher than that. And agreed, those that come are pretty opinionated about what they believe, stand for, ect....if you look at those ratios, turnover in the Military, percentage of people who exited Nam and went civilian you would see a pretty large ratio of "didnt like it for shit versus, damn...that was fun...Im staying. Point is....many who left Nam did get out, did not care for the war, and do not support more war. There are a great many men and women out there that went through the 60's and 70's that for all intents and purposes, went back to whatever lives they had trying to figure out what went wrong and keeping to themselves...never bothering to voice an opinion, dont do much talking about Viet Nam and do NOT trust politicians. And you would also see...men who stayed in for 20+ after Nam tend to be more aggressive in their thinking about Nam, how it was conducted, ect...and have very definitive conservative slants to their thinking.

The stereotypical right-wing vet is Professor Terguson, from Back to School:

[after a female student answered correctly why America pulled out of Vietnam]

Professor Terguson: Is she right? 'Cause I know that's the popular version of what went on there. And a lot of people like to believe that. I wish I could, but I was there. I wasn't here in a class room, hoping I was right, thinking about it. I was up to my knees in rice paddies, with guns that didn't work! Going in there, looking for Charlie, slugging it out with him; While pussies like you were back here partying, putting headbands on, doing drugs, and listening to the goddamn Beatle albums! Oh! Oh! Oh!

Thornton Melon: Hey Professor, take it easy. These kids were in grade school at the time, and as for me... I'm not a fighter, I'm a lover.