Yet again, my school has proved to be, for lack of a better word, stupid. Ok, its second period and the pledge of alliegence is beig hailed over the PA system. My friend is late to his second period class, and he's walking in the hallway during the pledge. He walks past a dean, and enters his class. The dean follows him, and pulls him out of his class, and accusses him of "disrespecting" the pledge, and now he has to except the "consequences". What a load of fucking bullshit. Man, my school sucks. My friend never usually stands up for it, and his second period teacher doesn't care. This is the same dean that responded to "have you ever used illegal controlled substances?" by saying "well...i went to college in the 70's..." but thats another story for another time. Tell me your thoughts on what my friend has been accussed of.

Just make sure he salutes the flag properly. With the bellamy salute, as was originally intended.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_salute

...and have him mention that the pledge was written by a socialist.

When I was a kid your age, we also had to put up with lots of crap from "adults"
Before me, my parents used to tell me about having to put up with the crap the adults layed on them.

I suspect it's all part of growing up. YOu'll have plenty of good shit, and lots of bad shit.
Believe me, you NEED the crap. If you don't have it now, you'll never learn how to cope. And believe me, yer gonna have to cope your whole fucking life!

Expect it, and deal with it!

Have your friend ask if the whole class could read, "To the Flag" by Richard Ellis. link

It's an interesting (and sometimes horrifying) look at the history of the pledge - and the bizarro right wing whacko paranoia that has fed it and nurtured it all these years. (and ask him if he's familiar with the Bellamy salute - that'll be good for a laugh or two)

Then give him this story. I love this principal. Castine, ME

The knee-jerk response (disrespecting the pledge! ) isn't helpful at all. Reading the history of the pledge (especially Ellis's book) would be a lot more helpful.

You already know that being a kid sucks, sometimes, and you have to take a lot of crap in school. This isn't the kind of crap you have to take.

Ha! Good find!

Seriously, the pledge is an oath, and forcing anybody to "respect" it is a violation of their free speech. I was going to say he should stand and scratch his ass while others are reciting, but TJ's suggestion is much better because it honors historical precedent on both sides of the Atlantic.

how much hassle does one need to draw to them selves?
Generally, being a kid, draws more than enough hassle.

Besides, of all the things in the world to worry about, sorry, but this is a low priority.
Kids gotta go through kid shit reality just like all kids have always gone through, and always will.

I see a world of difference between the ordinary shit one takes as a kid, and being forced to
swear a loyalty oath - the kind of oath we'd condemn in another country. Sometimes, regardless
of age, we have to stand up for our principles.

I agree completely. Don't be a sheep. Fight the authoritarian indoctrination. The flag is supposed to stand for the US Constitution, which includes the Bill of Rights. That absolutely includes the right to not say something you don't want to say. Forcing someone else to take an oath to it is the height of ignorance and hypocrisy.

The penalties the school can impose on you for this stop at the parents. One phone call to the principal, threatening a letter to the editor of the local paper will erase it all.

Of course, being late to class is penalizable in and of itself. He probably won't have any luck fighting that.

Relevant song lyrics:

"If you're under 18 you won't be doin' any ti-yime."

"Swear allegiance to the flag
Whatever flag they offer
Never hint at what you really feel"

Damn....this whole topic conjurs up a damned fine parodox for me. I slapped the back of a kids head for yelling during the National Anthem last week. No,...really....I did.

I dont object to not reciting the Pledge....goes to freedoms and I WILL defend freedoms. I think though it should be respectful which is respectful of what others believe. If you dont want to recite it, just remain quiet. Don't stick out like a target looking for a bullet. Kind of like religeon. You may not agree with others worship practices but dont disrupt them. Or else some knuckle dragging redneck like me would come along and slap the bejesus outcha.

What do you think about the Pledge, Abell? Can you think of another democracy that forces its young to recite a loyalty oath every day?

Its has always been a source of amusement to me. My Dad used to slap me cross eyed when I would fidget during the Pledge. Other countries say them as a course of support...England, France, Norway, Sweden, ect....however I do not recall any of them doing it in school as a matter of requirement.

My Dad and I after I had been in for about 7 years were on the back lawn at the old home place spoke of it in rememberance. (Him jack slapping me) He admitted that the pledge was used as a bonding tool in it's inception and people, including him, took it too seriously. We (he and I) sat and drank Jack Daniels and laughed over that. And he asked me, why do you object to it. I said I dont. I just object to being MADE to do it.

To answer the question, Max...doesnt seem an American proves a damned thing when doing it. Just mindless drivel recited by people who are told to do it.

You might enjoy the book I referred to earlier in the thread. The history of the pledge is sickening - as was the McCarthy era addition of GAWD.

I do object to it, as a matter of principle. I don't take loyalty oaths, and I don't recite mindless propaganda. And I certainly don't swear allegiance to an extraordinarily unattractive piece of cloth.

Bite your damned tongue! I have some underwear that looks right fookin sporty in that Red, White, and Blue......my wife, bless her Puritan ways....said once she felt dirty pulling a flag off my ass....I said......Ohhhh yea....come on babyyyy...come here and give your Uncle Sam sum lovin....... ( damn, i crack myself UP.

Well, that makes one of us.

I still stumble over the "under God" part of the pledge. It was added after I finished public school. Actually, I'd rather remain silent during the pledge.

I said the pledge nearly every morning when I was a kid. It didn't warp me any more than usual.
Besides, I'm still a progressive liberal.


Learning to cope is ALSO a part of being a kid

That's great logic, sky.

When I was a kid, girls weren't allowed to take some classes, or participate in some sports. It didn't
warp me any more than usual.

If you are a progressive liberal, presumably you are interested in progress - yet here you are
justifying the status quo.

Some things should not be coped with. Some things should change.

Onhe other hand, you learned to cope. Adversity has that ability, to teach you something you might otherwise not have the need to learn.

The pledge does not need to be in schools. But if some teacher with a sphinctor a bit too tight thinks kids outta be "respectful" and this is the worst thing to ever happen to these kids, they're not doing so bad.

In the mean time I consider it more important to wonder if these same kids have health insurance, or if their school has enough of what is needed so they can compete in the future world that is here now. Etc etc.

Oh, I see - we can't have more than one concern about our kids. Brainwashing them into knee jerk patriotism, teaching them to tests, and ignoring critical thinking at the same time recruiters are allowed full reign on school grounds - not such a big deal. After all, you turned out okay.

Max. You really enjoy putting on the gloves, don't you?

You have now included recruiters. I did not see any mention of recruiters in the original post.
I had better learn to read more completely.

So, is your friend dealing with the consequences? Because that's the way things get changed. Enough people say "no" and the system changes. Those in the vanguard of change, not the bigshots, but the foot soldiers, pay the price, make the sacrifices. What does your friend have to say about it? It happened to him, not to you. Evolution and revolution...gotta get yer ass off the bench if you want to play. Neither is a spectator sport.

It sounds to me like the dean is the one with the issues (control issues), not the fact that the pledge is played on the school PA system. It doesn't sound to me like he was disrespecting the flag or the pledge, it sounds to me like he was hot footing it to class because he was running late, pretty simple it seems. It almost sounds like the dean just doesn't like your friend, could it be that the dean might have been looking for a reason to jack him up because he never stands for the pledge in the first place? Just hazarding a guess here.

What consequences did your friend have to "pay"?

It's not that I enjoy putting on the gloves - it's that I am sometimes compelled to speak my truth, sky. I
am sorry that I sometimes come across as being especially snarky.

I include recruiters, because I see a connection.

Our president just put forth a budget that will cut funding for student loans, once again.
We are fighting a "war on terra" - and 1/3 of his budget goes to the Pentagon.
It's clear to me, that fewer kids will be going to college. The ones who do will be from
wealthy families. Those who aren't getting an education will be going into the military, to
be the endless supply of cannon fodder needed in the "global war on terra."

I see the pledge of allegience as being the first step in the kind of jingoistic brainwashing
that our children will be experiencing. The pledge, followed by NCLB - teaching to test, with no
critical thinking skills needed. Military recruiters will be a permanent fixture on school campuses, starting
in middle school - and maybe sooner. Our children will be subjected to all manner of nationalistic propaganda
and advertising. The ones who weren't lucky enough to be born rich will be going off to fight the endless
war.

Our children aren't living in the same world we grew up in. You and I are of similar age. We didn't undergo
the constant barrage of propaganda and advertising that kids today experience. We thought NIXON was
the worst thing that could ever happen. We had no way of knowing the evil that was to come.

I see the Pledge as a very dangerous first step in brainwashing our young to fit into their place in this brave new
world we're thrusting them into - the world of the war on Islam.

I understood that you saw a connection Maxanne, but the original post made no mention of such a situation.
I read his post, and I see a so called grown up playing his power card over some kid. I also strongly suspect that there are layers to this story not being mentioned. Kids are kids yes?

I agree the pledge does not belong in schools any more than recruiters do.
But in this case that's not what I see playing out. I see a power struggle between youth and age, the same as has always been and will always be. The forum was used to extract the desired sympathy, and as such the wording of the original post was designed.

Yep and kids should FIGHT BACK the way the brave ones always have.
Being a kid is no reason to tolerate injustice.

Why should recruiters be banned from school grounds?

I was on recruiting duty in Denver. And I was never treated rudely, I never harrassed anyone either. But, if a recruiter sets up a stand at the high school job fair, whats wrong with that?

I see the argument with school officials giving out phone numbers and tend to agree with that part of your argument. But I don't think there is anything wrong with recruiters visiting students who set up an appointment in the counselors office or setting up a booth at a job fair or career day.

Passive recruiting in high schools is not so bad. It's when these recruiters target certain segments of that school population.
The recruiters do not need an office on school grounds. A booth at a job fair is quite OK. If the recruiters have an office down the road, that's fine. But if they stand outside the schools front door, that's not OK.

Remember, we wanna see as many recuiters in Malibu as we do in East LA!

Oh yea....THATS going to happen.

Not very likely, and as long as it's not, screw um!
Class war includes who gets Boot Camp.

It was not right to do this during the Vietnam war, and it's still not OK!

Well, if you think about it aplying your sense of right, wrong, and injustice won't work. Where else will they get soldiers? And Mailbu. Please. Gold spoon trust fund kids don't need Sam for an education. The military is selling their wares where they will be bought. It is called "supply and demand".
However, I see them on a regular basis in upper middle class school and they participate in "career week". You can call it what you want but the military is a viable choice. It isnt JUST for the poor uneducated masses and they dont JUST recruit from those area's. It is quite broad based.

Yeah, where ARE they gonna get their cannon fodder?
Poor black and Mexican Americans and yer general white trash that are fucking desperate enough to reach out to any hand.
Even one than can get them killed, while their rich brothers and sisters couldn't be bothered. They're too busy working to be rich like mom and dad to bother with helping their country, and the very liberties that gives them the ability to do exactly what they are doing.

The more I consider it, the more I'm inclined to think a draft might be a better solution! (Lottery With NO deferments)
Perhaps when the sons and daughters of the top 1% have to put it all on the line, maybe the war option will become less attractive?

Absolutely true in my experience Abell.

I tend to agree with your basic thought on this sky. Mandatory national service of some nature is good for kids I think. I don't think it would necessarily have to be in the military. But teaching youngsters that they have to participate in the maintenance and the well being of society, in understanding they are but a small widget in a bigger machine is good for them. I think it might teach them that getting involved is a good thing.

Given our volunteer force though, it would make sense that so long as recruiters are currently allowed on most school grounds, they be allowed in all public schools in the interest of attempting to populate the military with a reflective cross section of the American demographic? Too make sure that even the rich kids are at least approached and if nothing else, educated a little bit about the US military, even if they don't enlist?

Best check your facts on who the military is getting. They do indeed get poor people but they get middle to upper middle class as well. And THAT...is a fact. And interestingly....ever see any of Hollywood's kids in the mix? Not many if any.

And so what if a poor guy or girl uses it as a means to achieve an education? At least the opportunity is there where it otherwise may not be.

Spoken like a well educated military conservative.
But I respect you anyway!

Army is full of'em.

Heh heh, 'magin that!
I hope most are as intelligent and articulate as you two are!

Wow, I'm late to this thread. I hope I won't be singled out for "disciplinary" purposes.

Mention to your friend how the Dean also was disrespectful to this pledge when he too entered during it's recitation to disrupt the class so as to single out the the other person who disturbed the class.

If they live long enough.

Recruiters call and harass kids - sometimes for years after school. Recruiters target low income areas...etc. The recruiter in my area has an office right down the street from the school. He should stay there, unless invited - as should any employer. This is a place with little opportunity for young people who aren't going to college, unless they want to work at ski areas.

Job fairs are fine. But I want to see a recruiter at Phillips Exeter, and all the private schools. In fact, I want to see Young Republicans enist, en masse. I want to see the Bush twins wearing cammo and heading for Iraq.

More than anything, I want kids who don't have $$ to have other choices - choices that don't involve becoming cannon fodder for the endless, undefined war on terra.