The Great Writ is dead. Law no longer rules in this land.

What will you do?

I'm curious.

You are more attuned to the finite aspects (OK, all aspects) of the law than I and it's possible that at this very moment, people's reaction is knee jerk as to it's implications. As well, a new election or reconsideration may change it. Additionally, assuming it stays dead...a lethargic response by the people who have no clue as to the power of what is lost will cause a delayed...Oh SHIT outcry. However, assuming stupidity will reign supreme and the lack of law will continue as you state....I would have to think I would be an enemy to those of both sides of the lawlessness. Yep, those on the bottom who take advantage of those who have no clue and to those who would seemingly be the strong arm of the enforcement. Freedoms enjoyed by many could be lost. Many will continue their dependance on the Government and shrug their shoulders as if they have no choice BUT go along. Others....would rather die than live without those liberties. I believe in these liberties. And with that word believe comes the litmus test for the word "believe". Would you die for it? Death isnt so bad now is it?

This travesty can be undone and the Supreme Court may do so when a challenge is presented. There is nothing congress does that can't be undone by a new one. I'll vote for those most likely to undo this one.

Question Soon,

How many people taken out by this unconstitutional law before it is overturned is acceptable? Redundant question, i know, but still. What's to stop the President from jailing any attorneys that pursue overturning this law? Especially if they are defending an accused "enemy combatant"? They could, by definition of the MCA through the President, be deemed an enemy themselves for being sympathetic, aiding an established and convicted "enemy". It's already being carried out to that extent. The lawyer that defended Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman has already been deemed an enemy sympathizer. Read about it here>>> http://oldamericancentury.org/bb/index.php?showtopic=11895

Then read about this>>> http://oldamericancentury.org/bb/index.php?showtopic=11600

Scared yet?

I believe as soon does that the law will be overturned. Thats not to say that Bush may not try some shit, but how many law enforcement officials does he have at his disposal to make a sweep accross the whole land to jail those he may deem "subversive"? can we really believe he can have the whole Congress arrested? I would think about that time the generals may say ":enough of this shit" and remove the Bastards from office. The fact that we are discussing this subject at all is scary enough, yet I will have to side with the common sense of man in abolishing this law. if not , then I'm with Abell, you know "Don't Tread On Me".

Max, I can't claim to know everything about this case, but I don't recall hearing that her habeas corpus rights were denied. The evidence against her seems pretty damning (yes, I know it might be untrue, but I haven't heard that she denied it:)


http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110006287 I also could have sworn that I heard her entire sentence was suspended because of her age and good works. I'm as pissed as anybody about the concentration camp at Gitmo and the ceding of habeas and countless other things, but I'm not persuaded that a great injustice was done here altho evidence to the contrary or constitutional breech pointed out to me might make me so. Am I scared yet? very much so, I think that everything hangs on this election, and I'm not as optomistic that we'll win as some. See the POAC headline about Blackwell already having purged the voter rolls in OH. I've read it, and since it's so anecdotal I'm not wringing my hands yet, but I know it could well be truehttp://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/10/18/85915/109]My Webpage[/url]

All emotional bull shit asside, what honest choice do we have, but to wait for a Supreme ruling?
Are we ready to risk it all for the options we are not allowed on this forum to discuss?
I don't think so yet. First we let those who are in the position to do so, fight this exceptionally stupid decision legally. Then if that fails, then we consider our options.

I'm afraid their will be those who are abused by this law, as well as the torture statutes. If you're worried about it, I'd suggest you keep your head down, your nose clean, and do not draw any attention to yourself.

The fact that this law was created and signed by the President may well work out in the end to help remove him from office before 08. Not as any legal reason, but for the emotional factor that gets the people that are needed to support the idea, on board and active.


When the true meaning if what this is all about becomes more understood by your average American sheeple, they won't be happy about it. Americans, even if uninformed and apathetic, are still proud to be Americans. And this is the most anti-american thing to happen to US law since japanese internments in WW2.

Sky, consider TJ's story. How many Americans know or would believe it? What if he were declared an enemy combatant tomorrow? Think anybody in Peorias gonna know or care?

Im getting disgusted by some of the remarks on this site.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of libery" _Thomas Jefferson
Your being too timid.

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscious to remain silent" _thomas Jefferson
We have been silent long enough for tyranny to officially set in.

Professor of Constitutional Law, Jonothan Turly said on Olberman's show the other day "Congress just gave the president despotic powers" and went on to say that even if challeneged in the Supreme Court it will rely on Justice Kennedy who has already said he will most likely go along with it.

Palphleteer, scream at the top of your lungs, turn off tvs, and flip all the flags you see.

I could think of a couple dozen people who would care very much, and who would become very active in his defense.

But TJ is lucky. He has us.


TJ's story isn't that terribly unique. It's not something that happens all the time, but a lot of people have been abused by people who can't be reasonable with power. In other words, yes, some people would believe his story, while others, people who have never so suffered or known anyone who has, might not.

I'm presented with this reality Soon.
The economy is really pretty good. Granted it's not good the way it works for some, and not for others, but over all it;s not in bad shape. And still Bush's popularity is dropping! This can mean only one thing! The Sheeple are becoming informed! Price of gas goes down, and So does Bush's ratings! It;s gotten so that most people are actually quite cynical about bushco.

Krystol might be right. Having the Democrats in the house could be the best thing for the Repugs. There's a very big hole that has to be filled in, and frankly not many of us are terribly secure in the idea that the Democrats are up to the task. The Democrats have 18 to 22 months to make some real headway, and they MUST listen to their constituents, and they MUST remain squeeky clean, or the Republicans will be there in 08 with their big "we told you so" ad campaigns. On the other hand, if the Democrats DO manage to pull a rabbit out of the hat, the Republicans may be finished for a long, long time.




The Military Tribunal act is unfortunately law. I can't do anything about that. I'm just a warehouse guy that does manage to pay his child support real regular. I have no magic, I have no special powers. However, I will throw my voice and full support behind those who are in the position to do battle with these dark forces. That's what I can do. I can be an informed citizen, and I can talk with my friends, neighbors and coworkers.

Thank you RIO.

I too have been frustrated with the growing passivity at every step toward Imperialism and at every leap into the fray of a Dictatorship. Ashamedly, far too many people scoff at the idea that "It just couldn't happen here in America." Yet look at what we do have...something far closer to a dictator that our Founding Fathers ever imagined. EVER!!!

This is one reason why I visit every other day here now. I'm more at home on Conyers blog because even though the participants are far fewer and post far less, our goal remains resolute. Patriotism is what this country was founded on and patriotism is what will keep Her afloat. Unfortunately, our patriotic march is against the grain of the Loyalist's drum beat. And there are far, far too many sideliners.

O.K. not every one here IS a sideliner, but there is far too much poo-poohing going on for my tastes.

All right RIO, and Max, what do you suggest?
What in your opinions, shall we do?

Communicate daily with those that can make a difference. Your House Representative. Has he signed onto House Resolution 635 and if not DEMAND a defensible and sound reason as to why not. DEMAND to know how they can excuse a lie that is responsible for up to a half million deaths. DEMAND from them to justify how that is a responsible way to be an American. DEMAND that they justify why they aren't criminal, knowing what they know, complicit in the conspiracy to commit crimes against humanity, war crimes, and crimes against the people of America by failing to take action to put a stop to this. DEMAND that they be reminded that it is you they work for and they do not have your permission to be a criminal.


Secondly, DO THE SAME TO MURRY AND CANTWELL.

Cantwell knows she does not have my permission to support a war based on lies. Lies that she refuses to "Monday quarterback". That's code for not prosecuting the alcoholic that wrecklessly drove his car into the crosswalk, and took out a few dozen innocent victims and instead she prefers to write it off and send the check to the insurence(US public tax payer and their future generations) company. Just so happens that the "Monday quarterbacking" would be on her dear Commander and Chief, the sherif, the Executive Unitary Decider, the overseer of his own Presidency. Mr. Bush. She's a Loyalist in my eyes. And I do not support Loyalists over Patriots. And God knows, America needs more Patriots.

SOMETHING. ANYTHING.
I just threw 4 off the top of my head. And they are good ones. Start Conversations about the MCA. Ppl know about it and how fucked it is. Just keep talking about it and its implications.
Direct Action
Make Stickers
Make flyers
Distribute White Rose Pamphlets
Civil Dissobidience
Look at what people did in the past to resist oppressive governments
walk in the middle of the street with a banner that reads "WAKE THE FUCK UP" or Pring that Picture of hitler/Bush that says "Same Shit different asshole"
Use quotes from prominant proffessors, scholars, revolutionaries
Organize your community
Start walking to washington(reminissent of Gump), and once you get there throw a brick through some windows
Dont get arrested, you might get sent to cuba.

Your starting to make me think your a government shill, just trying to get people's ideas of resisting the police states ideas.

But isn't this what we're already doing? I mean I already am, aren't you?
Demanding doesn't guarantee results, even so, I word my letters carefully.

But beyond letters and conversation, there isn't much we can do, is there?
Accept wait for the Supreme court to strike this down. And if the Suprimes fail us?
I don't know. All that I do know is that we can't talk about it on this forum!




Edit to add....

I don't write and mail letters every single day.
The weekend is my letter writing time. And I don't do that every weekend. Still, 2 or 3 times a month I'll write usually 3 or 4 letters. Some times they are lengthy, but usually they are a couple paragraphs. Most of my letters are send via e-mail, but every now and then I will send a snail mail.

And that, along with talking to my neighbors, my family, my co-workers, plus the signs in my trucks windows that quite often get me direct responses. Short story...

Last weekend I went to the coast. My brother turned 60 so I went on down to point and laugh. On the back of the truck canopy, on one side it says " Now aren't you glad you voted for Bush?" and on the other side, "Dump the Neo-cons, Vote for Change". Well, on the way home a big tall gas guzzling 4x4 pulled up along my left side and then paced me. I looked over, and then up too see the kid sittin there looking down at me and laughing. Then he spit into his empty coke bottle, at which point I started laughing, and he stopped. The non-verbal communication between left wing hippy and the right wing stump jumper was quite amazing.

Same to you RIO, we are ALREADY doing these things. This is one more thing on the pile of issues!
And as I just said, this is about all we CAN do. Will you be able to accept that?

Sky,

This is not a referendum on or about you.

It is about all of us.

I don't do as much as I could be doing, and I think that is where a lot of my frustrations come from. Just knowing that there is more that I can do besides writting Congresspeople and putting up signs. Or attending rallies. Juxtaposed with knowing that there are a lot of people who do say, "Why bother".

I've seen your car. ITMFA!!! I know you write.

Like I've said, this frustration is about "US"

http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-...transcript.html If all else fails, our Founders gave us permission to rise up against Tyranny so as to secure Liberty and Freedom for ourselves and those that follow.

I think the problem is that while most of us are doing this, we need to get others involved in doing it as well. We need to be like mentors to people, teaching, guiding, showing them the way. In this free and open society it is amazing how many people don't want to speak out or act out because of the way they will be percieved,not by the government but by others. It is hard to break people out of their cocoons and really participate in life. Too many are driven by work,work and family(not that thats a bad thing) and don't want to venture outside their "safe "place.

That should be our goal, to try and create little pockets of White Rose Societies in our communities, to educate them challenge others to grow as citizens and activists, to teach them what a democracy can be!

Again, I hear ya Max. And all I can say is, it's happening!
But short of Bush and gang all being frog marched out of the white house, I doubt you're gonna feel satisfaction.


Look at the mood of the country today compared with this time last year.
Hell this time 3 months ago!

Progressives have a very real possibility of taking back BOTH houses of congress.
3 months ago we HOPED for one!

The price of gas is going down. That would normally guarante higher ratings for for the ruling party
but this time it hasn't!



It's happening Max! Ya gotta have faith in a momentum that is based on a more informed population.
Olberman will continue his Attacks.
Palast will continue to blast away.
And the Republicans will continue to be their own worst enemy


After November 7th, then we'll have to refocus our energies and work towards the next phase of the over all project to save America, and we got a very long ways to go. Plan on a long term investment in your commitment towards a more Progressive Union.

Politics requires a whole lot of patience, and even more persistance.

I don't quite agree.
I mean yeah, I'd like to have every one write. Like, if you don't write a letter, you don't get paid.

But, here's where i split off.
I want letter writer activists who really believe in what they are doing. I want the passion that goes with it.

I was around back in the 60's and 70's. When you see the films now it seems as though everyone was involved. But the truth is, very few were really plugged in. The rest were simply along for the ride. A little free sex and some pot.

You will never have enough people active and involved.
However, you can quite honestly expect that you, as a committed individual, have a much greater impact than you are aware of. Walking your talk and leading by example, you will be seen. And that's the very best and strongest message possible.

Yeah, boy, that'll do it!

Can you fill us in on how to commit civil disobedience without getting arrested? Thoreau, O'Connell, Gandhi, and King all agreed that expecting and accepting arrest was part of CD.

To be honest, Im not really sure after watching a plethora of videos and reading articles about how the brainwashed police use highly aggressive means against passiffists (sp?). Though this is horribly sad, and who knows if they will arrest you as usual to be released at a later time or if you will now be arrested and held forever. All I can say is that it will bring light to the issue, and empower others not to sit idly by.CD is just one specific use of Direct Action, I advise you look that up too.

Why should I look up what I already know?

I was just pointing out that two items in your list appeared incompatible, Civil disobedience and avoiding arrest.

Actually, getting arrested is not only a part of CD, it's the goal.
If you don't get arrested, you aren't doing it right.
In rtecient years, little old ladies have stood face to face with power, and then turned around to be cuffed.
Military personal of nearly all ranks, immigrants, Cindy Shehan and protesters by the hundreds have been arrested with the knowledge that arrest is part of their statement. To cause "the system" to have to deal with them, and not ignore them.

If you are going to participate in NON-VIOLENT civil disobedience, understand that you WILL get beaten up and that you WILL be arrested. BE PREPARED! Their are websites available to help you prepare.


You'll want a helmet, Gas mask, wear boots and good heavy clothing, the hevier the better, even if it's 90 outside. When you are being beaten up you have the right to defend yourself, but you do NOT have the right to fight back! When you are being beaten up by the cops, remember to maximize the political effect of your suffering by screaming your fool head off.

I applaud Jubal for asking this question.

I get the impression that everyone thinks this MCA thing is some sort of sign that Bush has taken on more powers. I don't understand this. After all, he has detained people at Guantanamo Bay for 5 years. This act flies in the face of everything that America once stood for yet is status quo for the Bush White House. We're discussing legalities? As for the notion that any of this can be reversed through the usual channels, you only say this because you are unaware of what has actually been going on. The Prez has signed hundreds - if not thousands - of Executive Orders that have steadily and completely eroded Democracy as we know it. Many of the powers normally seated in the Senate, the Judiciary and even the Executive are now seated in the Department of Homeland Security. Just for fun, take a look at the "latest" and note where it indicates shifts in power:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...0061013-14.html

Another very interesting thing about Executive Orders - and you'll probably have to take my word for this - is that all of the EOs have a number assigned to them - or used to. As you'll see by looking at that list, these numbers are no longer available and the EO is now designated by its date. If you can no longer look to consecutive numbering as a guide, how can you tell how many EOs have been signed ... and what they were for?

So, my question is this: What the hell does this administration have to do before you catch on that Sy Hirsch is right and our government was taken over in a "bloodless" coup in January of 2000?

My prediction for the mid-terms: The Repubs will keep their majorities. If they're smart, they'll keep them by only a seat or two. If they keep them by more, then I will again be praying that Americans rise up and do what must be done.