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Navy SEAL Dives on Grenade to Save Others
By THOMAS WATKINS, AP


Navy SEAL Michael A. Monsoor, left, was killed after he
dove on a grenade that bounced on a roof in Ramadi, Iraq.
He was only the second SEAL to die in the Iraq war.

CORONADO, Calif. (Oct. 14) - A Navy SEAL sacrificed his life to save his comrades by throwing himself on top of a grenade Iraqi insurgents tossed into their sniper hideout, fellow members of the elite force said.

Petty Officer 2nd Class Michael A. Monsoor had been near the only door to the rooftop structure Sept. 29 when the grenade hit him in the chest and bounced to the floor, said four SEALs who spoke to The Associated Press this week on condition of anonymity because their work requires their identities to remain secret.

"He never took his eye off the grenade, his only movement was down toward it," said a 28-year-old lieutenant who sustained shrapnel wounds to both legs that day. "He undoubtedly saved mine and the other SEALs' lives, and we owe him."

Monsoor, a 25-year-old gunner, was killed in the explosion in Ramadi, west of Baghdad. He was only the second SEAL to die in Iraq since the war began.

Two SEALs next to Monsoor were injured; another who was 10 to 15 feet from the blast was unhurt. The four had been working with Iraqi soldiers providing sniper security while U.S. and Iraqi forces conducted missions in the area.

In an interview at the SEALs' West Coast headquarters in Coronado, four members of the special force remembered "Mikey" as a loyal friend and a quiet, dedicated professional.

"He was just a fun-loving guy," said a 26-year-old petty officer 2nd class who went through the grueling 29-week SEAL training with Monsoor. "Always got something funny to say, always got a little mischievous look on his face."

Other SEALS described the Garden Grove, Calif., native as a modest and humble man who drew strength from his family and his faith. His father and brother are former Marines, said a 31-year-old petty officer 2nd class.

Prior to his death, Monsoor had already demonstrated courage under fire. He has been posthumously awarded the Silver Star for his actions May 9 in Ramadi, when he and another SEAL pulled a team member shot in the leg to safety while bullets pinged off the ground around them.

Monsoor's funeral was held Thursday at Fort Rosecrans National Cemetery in San Diego. He has also been submitted for an award for his actions the day he died.

The first Navy SEAL to die in Iraq was Petty Officer 2nd Class Marc A. Lee, 28, who was killed Aug. 2 in a firefight while on patrol against insurgents in Ramadi. Navy spokesman Lt. Taylor Clark said the low number of deaths among SEALs in Iraq is a testament to their training.

Sixteen SEALs have been killed in Afghanistan. Eleven of them died in June 2005 when a helicopter was shot down near the Pakistan border while ferrying reinforcements for troops pursuing al-Qaida militants.

There are about 2,300 of the elite fighters, based in Coronado and Little Creek, Va.

The Navy is trying to boost that number by 500 -- a challenge considering more than 75 percent of candidates drop out of training, notorious for "Hell Week," a five-day stint of continual drills by the ocean broken by only four hours sleep total. Monsoor made it through training on his second attempt.

Rest in peace.

Stuff like this happens everyday. Of course, we never hear about it. Well, actually I've got enough stories like this to write a book, but what for? Nobody is interested.....and thats the truth.

Thanks for the post though sky.

i am interested in individual acts of heroism. what makes it tough in this climate is that they should not f-ing be there in the first place and that they are in a terrible situation that will just make more and more of this needless sacrifice possible.

you might have seen one of my posts and i am a bit jaundiced about the military. but i can tell you that where my dad and i have the biggest disagreement about the military is that he went to war with competent leadership, with a clear purpose and an honest government. the troops in irag and i went to war with incompetent leadership, an evil purpose and a corrupt government. i can also say that while i believe that the vietnam war was a mistake and evil, it probably had more justification than the current mess.

so while i applaud and respect the sacrifice made by the current troops, i feel so bad for them because i know that they cannot win and will gradually be picked off. all to satisfy the egomania and oil-lust of a few craven cowards in the current administration, in congress and on the streets of america.

Your in the minority Oz. But welcome anyway....

Well stated. I agree completely.

And this Navy SEAL is another soldier who died needlessly, making his heroic sacrifice in the line of duty to save his comrades all the more painful.

To tell the truth, because I think it's time, the "good story" I posted was posted with sarcasm in mind.

Though this soldiers act was noble and heroic, he is still just another human being that when put into the decision to have to decide, sacrificed his life for a lie! The War of Lies could count another accomplishment.



In war there is no glory.
There is nothing noble about death.





THE WAR PRAYER _______________________ by Mark Twain



It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country
was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the
holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands
playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers
hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the
receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a
fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily
the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and
fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers
and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices
choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the
packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory
which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which
they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of
applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while;
in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and
country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid
in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which
moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious
time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to
disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteous-
ness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that
for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of
sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave
for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were
there, their young faces alight with martial dreams --
visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the
rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe,
the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the
surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes,
welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With
the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and
envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and
brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win
for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths.
The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament
was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an
organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse
the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and
poured out that tremendous invocation


*God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy
clarion and lightning thy sword!*

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like
of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful
language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-
merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over
our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage
them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in
the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His
mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in
the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them
and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory--

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless
step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister,
his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet,
his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy
cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale,
pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and
wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he
ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting.
With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence,
continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it
with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms,
grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector
of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside --
which the startled minister did -- and took his place.
During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience
with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then
in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty
God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the
stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard
the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it
if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall
have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its
full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of
men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is
aware of -- except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he
paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two
-- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear
of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the
unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would
beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without
intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same
time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop
which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a
curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain
and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part
of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other
part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in
your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly
and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these
words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is
sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact
into those pregnant words. Elaborations were notnecessary.
When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many
unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it,
cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God
fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me
to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our
hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them
-- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of
our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God,
help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our
shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale
forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder
of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in
pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a
hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their
unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn
them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended
the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and
thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy
winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail,
imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it --
for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes,
blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make
heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain
the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask
it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of
Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all
that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and
contrite hearts.

Amen.

(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire
it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic,
because there was no sense in what he said.

This story transcends anyones personal viewpoint or motivations.

I suppose, because when I think about it more than superficially, i feel tears form in my eyes,
so I quickly move away and focus on something else.

There's a very important story we never see written about Iraq. The story of how many Iraqis have died since the invasion. There's one question that never seems to be asked - the US blabbers on and on about bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq, so why is it that we don't even have enough respect for the Iraqis to count the dead?

I'm sick of rightards whining about how we never hear any "good" stories about Iraq. We do. We hear those stories all the time. We hear those stories, and we also hear the ongoing whine abou how we never hear any good stories. It's akin to the myth of the liberal media, or the alleged persecution of Christians in the US.

What we don't hear is the unvarnished truth.

That is a very good point Maxanne,
It makes me wonder how difficult it would be to find "good" stories about everyday Iraqi's that could be posted here?
I have seen none. Even those Iraqi reporters that blog, I have seen none.

I would challenge all of us to find and post the stories from an Iraqi perspective.
After all, it's their country and they who are suffering the most.
I mean, it'd be as if every story out of New Orleans were about the National Guard, and nothing about those who live there, and died there.


I suspect that if this view from the eyes of everyday Iraqi's were to make it to the MSM, the sentiments for war would dry up even among most of the most ardent of Hawks.

I'm in a hotel room in Yorktown, VA right now, I'm here on business, I hate typing on a laptop so I'll keep this short.

This is bullshit.

I'm sick of the duplicity. You can't feel sorry for someone you don't give a shit about. Truth is, sky max, you and many others don't give a shit about the military so please. Stop the charade. You lament the deaths of our brave troops because it fits neatly in your political argument. I am not convinced either of you honestly give a shit about the military. Neither am I convinced you give a shit about the average Iraqi citizen either. If we leave Iraq, Iraq will become a blood bath and yet you want our troops to come home, now! But you want them to come home because of your politics, you want with every fiber of your being to prevent Bush any opportunity to claim a modicum of success in Iraq. Your motivation in opposing the war is not the loss of American or Iraqi lives. It is because you have hated Bush since 2000 and have never been able to come to terms with his presidency. Thats really it isn't it?

Iraq is a bloodbath. We have assured that this would be so. I have been a soldier, as has my son. My father was a sailor, and fought in the South Pacific as a Seabee. I harbor no great love for the military as an institution, and especially not as an instrument of foreign policy in the stead of diplomacy, as it has been so badly used in recent years by the bush administration. Nor do I love what bush has caused the American soldier to become. I worh for and pray for an end to the bloodbath in Iraq, and the safe return of every American service member as quickly as is humanly possible. I make that same prayer for Iraqis, civilian and soldier alike. bush's failures, both at home and abroad, are of his own making and should rightly be his unmaking. As for my personal feelings toward bush, they are principally feelings of disgust and sorrow that any mothers' child could become such a craven beast. I reserve my hatred for the things he has wrought in my name and in the name of my country. And my politics may be damned for all I care. I am primarily a social activist, not a political activist. I participate directly, by feeding and housing the homeless, working with addicts, alcoholics and the mentally ill and advocating for local veterans. I view politics as the larger part of Americaa's problems, and anything but a solution. Why is it so important to you to maintain a policy that can only result in the loss of more lives, both American and Iraqi, without moving Iraq any closer to stability and self-rule or America any closer to national security? bush's current policies all lead us farther away from those stated goals, and at a great cost in civil liberties guaranteed under the US Constitution here at home. If by "This is bullshit," you mean the paragraph that follows that statement, then right you are.

I feel torn in two directions zooks. It isn't easy, I do my best to explain, but sometimes I think only someone who has served can understand the depth and strength that men who literally put their lives in the hands of another can understand.

I'm angry, yes, I assure you that I'm angry about Bush's decision to take us to war. I'm even angrier at that incomprehensible ignorance in planning for the war. And yes, I'm angry at the loss of life, Americans first, Iraqis second.

Many members here are well aquainted with indeed, accept the sad reality that it is sometimes necessary to choose the lesser of two evils. The same outlook should be applied here IMHO. We drastically change our tactics in Iraq, lower our expectations and give it a couple more years. But to leave now will undoubtedly lead to the loss of thousands more Iraqi lives than if we stay awhile longer no? And, by pulling out now, we virtually gaurantee that we'll be back over there again at a later date under much more dire circumstances and more ominous consequences.

I vividly remember being dumbfounded during the first war in the gulf. Right when we had the Iraqi Army where we wanted them, we stopped. And I also remember telling a Captain, a staffer with G3, that if we didn't finish them off now that we would end up coming back and sure enough, we are back. I predict the same here and now. If we withdraw before we give the new Iraqi government more time to get it's shit together, we'll be back again. None of us wants that. And if you accept my prediction, isn't it preferable to swallow this bitter pill and hope we salvage something good from it? I firmly beleive we can if we really try.

Oh, my - what a sophisticated analysis.

Yep, anyone who disagrees with the war is unpatriotic, hates the troops, freedom, Mom, apple pie and secretly hates 'Murrika and is working for the terrorists.

Let me be painfully honest with you, Captain - I'm not here to convince you of anything. You're a dedicated partisan moron, who can't grasp anything that isn't wrapped in the flag and presented to you in a neatly propagandized wrapper. You believe what the GOP tells you to believe. You have never had an interesting or independent thought in your life.

A number of my pinko liberal friends have kids serving in Iraq. (Remind us again of how many of the GOP in Congress have kids serving there? How many of Bush's kids are there?) My best friend's sister may be going back soon. I assure you, I care profoundly about the people who are there. I care more than you and your fascist friends do about the Iraqis - people you don't even bother to count when they die.

Iraq already is a bloodbath. We invaded a country (on the basis of trumped up "intelligence) and destabilized it completely. The US occupation brought Al Queda to Iraq, and has created generations of new terrorists. It's created bad feelings about US imperialism around the globe.

It was your president who declared victory in Iraq....a little prematurely. Your premature ejaculator, who didn't send enough troops over there in the beginning to get the job done. Your buddies who didn't supply the troops with the equipment or training they needed. Your buddies who overpaid Halliburton and their subsidiaries to feed the troops spoiled food and bad water.

I don't believe in imperialism. I despise you and your fascist friends for taking the US Constitution and wiping your behinds with it. For destroying our standing in the world community. For your constant mendacity and pretense of superiority. While you people mouth your pious slogans about ethics and morality, you're bilking the taxpayers, stealing from the poor to give to the rich, diddling boys while pretending to have family values, and praising Jesus while ignoring the homeless and hungry.

The US spends more on defense than all of the other countries on the planet combined, yet we can't secure the road that leads from Baghdad to the airport? The inept bumblers of the Bush administration can't straighten this mess out - if they could, they'd be doing it!! Instead, the Iraqis still don't have water or electricity in pre-war supply percentages. We've spent $380 billion there, and it's still a clusterfuck.

And you defend all this - because you don't want to admit that you're wrong - that Bush is wrong. You'd rather keep troops there, you'd rather keep them in danger, keep borrowing form China and Japan to fund this abbatoir than admit that this whole thing is a disaster. You'd perpetuate the dying to cover the collective asses of this failed, corrupt, inept administration.

So now I'm a facist huh? A partisan moron?

Your post is nothing but presumptuous drivel, not even worth taking the time to reply too.

But you can stop with the name calling anytime, I do beleive that I have at least given you that common courtesy.

You're a veteran. With divided loyalties. To your brothers-in-arms, and to the idiots who ultimately command them. Sorry, but the two loyalties cannot peacefully coexist within the same psyche. The sworn duty of the soldier is to uphold and protect the constitution and the American people. The intent of the politicians who command is to spend the lives of soldiers in order to achieve some political or personal end. Soldiering may be a noble calling philosophically, and has been considered so by many throughout history, but the work soldiers are called upon to do and the reasons for their service are generally anything but honorable. I just read a report on PTSD that says statistically one in four Marines and one in seven soldiers who have served in Iraq in combat roles have to deal with having killed at least one civilian per. I know the feeling. An ignoble task that can not have been assigned by an honorable man. You may need to climb out of the sandbox at some point and come the rest of the way home. I did, and it was painful at first, but hell, I got over it, and I'm no fuckin' John Wayne. Either.

Yeah zooks. But being called a partisan moron? A facist? Now, thats just utter bullshit and you know it.

No need to lecture me.

Seems to me that she is the one in need of some sage advice, because most certainly a presumptuous, bullshit diatribe such as she just posted doees nothing to close the division of opinions. Just makes her look like a hot head willing to put words in my mouth to give her an excuse to insult and fling nasty epithets.

Maxanne, I have treated others as they treat me. But still, I will not take the opportunity to wallow in the mud with you.

I think you actually owe me an apology. But then again, thats just me.

I don't generally like to speak for others, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and say that Maxanne is a progressive warrior of the first order, with a clear agenda, a very tight focus when needed and impeccable bona fides. She has spent more than a couple of years on the front lines in the political struggle for the soul of this nation, and her anger is not imagined, nor is it vicarious. I'm glad she and I are on the same side of most issues, as I would not want to cross sabers with her unless it was my life on the line. She believes as strongly in her politics as do you in yours, maybe more. Just a caveat...

A warrior? Perhaps. And undisciplined warrior? For sure.

Intelligent, even passionate people do not need to resort to ugly name calling to make a point. I can imagine the kind of reaction I'd get from board members if I were to use such tactics.

I do not treat people in that manner. I don't expect others to agree with me all the time and I only request that others treat me in the same manner. There is no excuse for her aggressive, ugly, unfair and uncalled for diatribe. I have to say though that I find it to be more that a little ironic. Know what I mean?

Engage me with your intellect Maxanne, cut the crap. That isn't asking too much? Or is it?

Cap'n.

If you don't call me names, I won't call you names. Deal?

To assume I don't care about the military personal is slander.
You do not know this to be true, because you do not know me, and to say it when it is untrue is slander!
To assume that because I don't agree with you somehow don't care is, stupid. Short sighted, narrow minded and ignorant. OK, now I've called you names so we're even.


Cap'n.

I've been one of the few who have constantly and consistantly made the point of defending the soldier in Iraq stating that supporting the military is NOT a yes vote for the war! That these are two seperate issues. Others have said that as long as we support the military, the war will continue and I take issue with that! Bush doesn't care! To him the military is a tool to accomplish his goals! He doesn't even care enough to come up with a plan BEFORE he sends soldiers off to die, IN MY NAME!

I'm sorry cap'n, but this assumption of yours that I don't care really pisses me off.
I'm going to choose to assume that yer stuck in that motel room, not in a real good mood, and nothing good is on the tube to distract you till it's sleepy time, and you chose to vent your boredom and frustrations here.

Hope it worked for ya.



Duplicity? Fuck me runnin.

Sorry Cap'n, I try to think and understand your perspective,
but outside of the fascist comment, I agree with every word Maxanne said.


(btw. When she says "you" she may or may not mean you personally, but instead Conservatives in general)


Good rant Maxanne

CA, excusing the somewhat bitter tone of maxanne's post, but what she said, excusing a few choice adjectives and verbs for emphasis and descriptions of you, is likely true.

You're not a fascist, but when you voted for Bush, when you said its the "right" thing to do in waging such a naked display of aggression that has caused an untold numbers of innocent deaths, you are supporting fascists.

You are not a fascist, and I really hate to use this analogy (not directing it towards you specifically) but the majority of Germans were not Nazi's, either, and aside from the private grumbling, most also supported their government and their troops.

At this point after three years, the parallels are, arguably, becoming clearer between unthinking support and what constitutes "supporting the troops." For most on this forum, supprting the troops means ending this madness before we continue to have 80 Ameircans, or more, killed every month.

maxanne knows that not a single American life was worth this criminal misleading of the American people, and not one more innocent Iraqi or their family deserves to be bombed/shot/interrogated/tortured, and what we have created is a Dante's Inferno in Iraq that stands at a testament to American ignorance, apathy, indifference and arrogance.

(And props to you for showing restraint and a tone of civility on this thread.)

Speaking for everyone again

We do not want soldiers to die.
We do not want Iraqi civilians to die.

The reason we disagree with you is that we don't agree that ending the occupation of Iraq is certain to make things worse there.

I don't know what will happen when our troops leave Iraq. But we can't prevent it, we can only delay the inevitable.

I am not wise enough to decide the fate of Iraqis for them. And I'm smarter than the president of the United States.

Cap, I have to ask. You keep saying if we pull out of Iraq, it'll become a bloodbath (like it isn't already). But you say above "You can't feel sorry for someone you don't give a shit about." Do you really give a shit about the Iraqis? If so, why?

If I recall correctly, about 33 years ago, we pulled out of Vietnam amid dire predictions it would become a Communist dictatorship. And it did. And very few Americans cared, and it had no discernable effect on the United States. Why is this different?

There are no good stories to come out of Iraq. Plain and simple. Why anyone feels it is necessary to forage around for a nugget of " good stories " to fuel the patriotic fervor , as if that will make the invasion palatable, is baffling to say the least. Good stories won't end this lunacy, only perpetuate it.

I appreciate the sarcasm inherent in the premise.

Im quite amazed, Maxanne that you seemingly read the things he wrote yet come to a conclusion that is not only inaccurate,it is absolute crap. Ive read what Cap wrote and I have seen NO evidence that he supports or even likes Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and the administration. Quite the opposite actually. The problem is...anything or anyone who disagrees with you on anything is immediatly castigated as NEOCONS, BUSHCO's, Fascists, and a host of other unimaginative labels Im quite sure you didnt copywrite. And you called HIM a partison moron! If you look, which I am sure you didnt, his thinking is 180 degrees opposite from his background and experience. Would seem that he thinks for himself. Of course, to you he is just another militarily brain washed NEOCON. You personalized yur attack as if he did all of this by himself and the truth is, his writings have been against most of what you claim he stands for. But, he disagreed with you so therefore he is ...one of THEM. And yep, he had an opinion which he stated in a very articulate way numerous times. But he disagreed with your line of thought. Maybe his frustration came out but damned if he resorted to name calling or labeling. He DID NOT say anyone here was unpatriotic. He disagreed with anyone who wants our soldiers to loose. Because, he knows the cause and effect. He was a soldier and has a natural trigger that does not want them dead. You look for people to march in lock step with your canned thinking, canned comments, canned labels, and if they think for themselves, all of your bag of phrases comes out.
His education and his experience...(you get that part...his EXPERIENCE) give him a perspective that while you don't see it is vastly different and damned sure more realistic than your own. You know people who have gone there, he has seen people die there. Yes, he explained his frustrations above...very well I might add. But you passed judgement and are the jury too because he disagreed with you. Max, you ARE the reason people dont listen. While your hurl names like Fascists, and pigeon hole him with personaized hatred for what you disagree with...your mind is closed. Everyone on this board has disagreed with another at one point and time yet with he and myself you resort to your bag of canned insults. You are so wrapped up in your hatred for the right that anyone who dares cross sabres with you is a _________. (Insert your canned label here.) And that dick measuring thing you commented on....please lady...you have no idea what he is about nor will your mind allow you to. He came here to read, learn and comment...you came to blast anyone who disagrees. And you believe in fair play only when it suits you, your cause and your beliefs. And based on that...who is the bigger person? No, Ma'm...nothing you have is bigger.

I'l side with anyone who doesn't support death by war.

I'm sure you aren't used to women standing up to you, so of course you think I owe you an apology. You aren't going to get one. I haven't said anything to you that merits an apology.

On another thread you espoused the opinion that I shouldn't be trusted to count ballots in my town because of my blind hatred for the Bush administration. The subtext here is that I lack sufficient integrity to behave honestly, that I would deliberately skew the count and the results.

In saying this, you are saying that I am dishonest and unethical. That's a charge I take quite seriously.

And you want me to apologize to you? My what a big ego you have, grandma.

And yet, you feel you can question the integrity of others. Your so funny! That you think this has a thing to do with your being a woman amply demonstrates your inability to figure out what I'm trying to say. You hear what you want to hear. You are a simpleton.

People like you have no business counting votes. This time, I do mean that.

Understand that I don't know either of you, Cap'n or Maxanne beyound what I see in your text right here.
This means that I know maybe 5% of who and what you each are. That said, what I know is all I am commenting on, nothing more. OK?


I see two very strong willed people. One is male who lives in a male dominated world, and likes it that way.
The other is female. A very competant female who has made the decision to reject the male dominated frame and create one more to her liking.

By the nature of the divergent aspects mentioned and the fact that they are both strong willed, and that they are both very sure of their respective correctness, what we have here is a cross gender pissing contest. Not something you see every day. Its quite normal to see men doing it. It's not quite as common, but certainly not unheard of for women to do it among them selves. But rarely do highly intelligent, highly motivated human beings from opposite sides of the gender fence stand face to face and argue the minute details of every issue way into the morning hours! I mean, NEVER!


Wait, except married couples. And dating couples. And brothers and sisters. And cousins. And neighbors. And co-workers. But other than that, never!

All the stout military lads hang together!!

I'm completely unsurprised by your knee jerk defense of el Capitan. That he aimed plenty of canned insult/stereotype at me escaped your notice completely - in spite of your pious commentary about "fair play."

There are other people here who are far more polite and tolerant than I, it's true. It's interesting that you express dislike for pigeonholing, yet you're perfectly willing to stereotype me - as well as deriding me for not behaving like everyone else. That double standard makes it kinda hard to take you seriously, y'know what I mean?

I don't tolerate mendacity and duplicity well, and I will rail against them when I encounter them. You don't like it? Tough shit, soldier.

I don't believe either of you came here to "read and learn." You came to play games with "libruls." I don't really give a damn about why you're here - but don't expect me to kiss your asses because you can't play hardball with strong women.

The "good story", the only "good story" that can possibly come out of the bloodbath we have created in Iraq is, "US, allies withdraw all forces and contractors unconditionally, prepare to pay reparations to emerging Iraqi government." There may be some time between the withdrawal and the emergence, and it may not be a government we like, or that likes us, but that is irrelevant. Reparations will be in order. Until we hear that story, all the others will be about death and destruction, suffering and corruption. If you can assign "goodness" to those things simply because they more often befall someone other than us, then you will have your "good story" every day. If you view the death, destruction, suffering and corruption of war as intrinsically evil, as do I, then you will work with me and hundreds of thousands, millions of others, for an end to this insane adventure in Iraq. Good pro-military story? "US troops glad to be home."

Right on !!

Exactly!


A good military story will be an article about the mini baby boom that comes after the end of this War of Lies.

Not that I care what you believe....No, allow me to clarify....I don't care.

Can't play hardball with strong women? You flatter yourself. Your not strong, your just loud and overbearing. Strong?

Steel cage death match!

Steel cage death match!

Steel cage death match!

STEEL CAGE DEATH MATCH!

STEEL CAGE DEATH MATCH!

You got put in the corner quite abit in Elem. School, dinja?

Now and then, boss, now and then.

You'd be surprised how few opportunities I get these days to shout "Steel cage death match!"

Abell.

Observation.
If you don't care, then you don't care!
However, clearly you cared enough to give this some air and reply.
In other words, you did care enough to state that you don't care.


As to Maxanne's reported strength.
No one but Maxanne herself knows the truth of this statement. Therefor she is the only one who can accurately make the statement.
Your statement, or anyone's that she is not, especially with out personal observations, is nothing other than slander. Just because you have been slandered, doesn't mean turn about is fair play, unless it has a specific intention or goal. Other wise it's just petty.

And that said, remember, you just said you don't care!



Would you like to once again clairify?




Note: I was not making any comment on flaws in Maxannes logic, or even if there are any.
This is deliberate as I feel that wouldn't serve any positive purpose.

Now, now, lets all stop all this unneccessary name calling and aggressive unproductive stuff, peeps. I don't know any of you from Adam, or Eve, but I know enough to like what I've seen, at least up until the bared teeth snarling match. I would prefer a Planet full of people like you than a planet full of the PNAC'ers and the other rabid nuts, all of which make you look deliciously Human, compared to these zombie freaks that are attempting to steal away everything that progressive adult Human beings have struggled for against the dark tides of obscurity since the dawning of time.
Maxanne, you don't like the idea of ingrained military solidarity, believing it to perhaps being a product of mind-control, which, to a certain extent, it is, but the fact that the Captain and Abell are here, and prepared to discuss their points-of-view, (and hopefully have no hidden agenda pushed on them by their superiors...) can only be a good thing.
You, too, have an agenda, which appeals to me, and is an important part of the future for the Human race, but sometimes we get a bit blinded by the narrowness of our chosen path which we're forging down, and a bit of blinker-opening from the sides CAN be a positive thing. Powerful ideology is not a bad thing, but it needs to be tempered with a bit of Humanity, otherwise we become that which we profess to despise. ( If I sound a bit like Yoda, or Gandhi, sorry...)

"He (she) that fights with monsters should look to it that he (she) him(her)self does not become a monster, and when you gaze into the Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you"

Y'all know who said that, and in these dark days ahead, we need more than ever before to stand together, because the monsters we are fighting have no Human characteristics, and their idea of a happy society is a society ruled by fear, governed by greed and motivated by hate. That ain't my idea of a Society.

If you believe in Freedom, the Rights of the individual, and the Greater good of a society that doesn't rely on wealth and power over Humanity and Compassion, if you think that liberty is an absolute, and NEVER to be surrendered to slimy-tongued devils twisting with forked tongues words of honourable men and women, then stick together, bury our rather silly looking little hatchets, and lets get on with the good and just fight, against an enemy who will destroy us all and leave the planet a darkened husk, smouldering in the silence of the Void.

Sky, lets just leave this one alone, yea?

One word------OIL Not the boogeyman, not communism , not islamofacism(WTF is that anyways?) but OIL.

The rich and their drive to become richer at the cost of those (both American and Iraqi) lives whom the uber rich or neocons deem to be less important of their own.

CR, Rous, Sky.....Damn guys....it's all good. Really. She bared her fangs, I bared my fangs....happens. Some people just naturally get on anothers nerves...Cap and I get on hers...eh-hem...and a few couple several ....... most others nerves. If she and I have an issue....we'll do the mature thing and.....start slinging vulagrities, insults, and labels. Nothing but a thing.

Maybe you should all just move to the Flame Pit and start a "Maxanne Appreciation" thread. We were trying to discuss something else, here.

The pro military mindset is one big huge conundrum of major proportions. No one wants to piss off the military , and seem unpatriotic ( totally over/misused label ) yet the military society is self serving enough to be a huge dilemma. While it is easy to say that the military defends its civilian population, we should also be able to see that a powerful military presence/existence, can quickly become the tool of a political industrial agenda that serves only itself. Somehow, the civilian society becomes a pariah by suggesting that the military can do wrong, when indeed their mission might be totally aggressive in nature.

The arguable stance that all war is not avoidable, is the rationale for a standing army. It is convenient to say, support the soldier, he is not to blame for his deeds, yet when does the cycle reverse itself? It is too convenient for politicians, non diplomats and industrial/corporate giants to use the "defense " forces as mercenaries. If that is the case, then why is our unflagging support mandatory? I do not want anyone, on any side to die, in a warlike situation. I do not want civilians to be victims in a military conflict. So if the Military is responsible for the mayhem, why should the individual soldier be blameless? Nuremburg trials supposedly defined the role of the individual soldier.

As I understand it, the military is not responsible for the mayhem. I believe we have a concept of civilian control of the military. That would seem to make the mayhem the responsibility of the civilian authority. For example, General Franks didn't make the decision to invade Iraq. President Bush did.

Further, as I understand the law, the individual soldier obeys a code of conduct that is different from the civilian code, but still considerably restrains her freedom of action. The various laws of war dictate what the soldier may or may not do, and the soldier should be, and frequently is, held responsible for violations of the laws of war.

I imagine I didn't make my rant clear. I am not speaking of the individual event of Iraq, although it fits quite well into my model, I am talking about the philosophy of a pro military society as it exists in the U S of A and has been growing for the last 125 years. Somebody wants a " good Military story " from Iraq and someone else says there is no " good story ". If there was a war and no one showed up, would there still be a war?

There is a group of soldiers who just yesterday proposed a request to Congress to " Stop the War ". Is that an act of treason or an act of reason?

The civilain authority has no bully rights without a military to carry out its whims. Just because some Multinational corporate greed driven entity wants more than its fair share of some resource, the military does not have to do the dirty work in the name of freedom. Freedom from what?

Civilian control is exactly how a dick like Rumsfeld can tell seasoned Generals what to do. It is a shame though, with this Administartion as an example, that while he and the VP and Prez. knew about and even authorized the abominations at Abu Ghirab and other torture sites, they will never be put on trial like the privates who were just "following orders". Are there atrocities during any war ? Yes. Do soldiers act outside the "bounds of war" to commit atrocities on their own? Yes. But we shouldn't hold accountable the military as a whole for the deranged acts of a few.There should be laws enacted that hold those in the civilian offices accountable for the wars and the actions contained therein.

I'm with zooks and sky , the happiest story would be that these brave men and women come home safe and sound but i may add with our full appreciation, not scorn. Hopefully in the future they wont be used as pawns for the gain of precious few.

Would you suggest disbanding the armed forces?