http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/13/us/13awo...l?th&emc=th


Sgt. Ricky Clousing after his court-martial Thursday at Fort Bragg, N.C. Sergeant Clousing, 24, was
sentenced to 11 months in confinement for going AWOL after becoming disilllusioned with the war in Iraq.

A Soldier Hoped to Do Good, but Was Changed by War
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: October 13, 2006
FORT BRAGG, N.C., Oct. 12 — Sgt. Ricky Clousing went to war in Iraq because, he said, he believed he would simultaneously be serving his nation and serving God.

But after more than four months on the streets of Baghdad and Mosul interrogating Iraqis rounded up by American troops, Sergeant Clousing said, he began to believe that he was serving neither.

He said he saw American soldiers shoot and kill an unarmed Iraqi teenager, and rode in an Army Humvee that sideswiped Iraqi cars and shot an old man’s sheep for fun — both incidents Sergeant Clousing reported to superiors. He said his work as an interrogator led him to conclude that the occupation was creating a cycle of anti-American resentment and violence. After months of soul-searching on his return to Fort Bragg, Sergeant Clousing, 24, failed to report for duty one day.

In a court-martial here on Thursday, an Army judge sentenced Sergeant Clousing to 11 months in confinement for going AWOL, absent without leave. He will serve three months because of a pretrial agreement in which he pleaded guilty.

“My experiences in Iraq forced me to re-evaluate my beliefs and my ethics,” Sergeant Clousing said, sitting stiff-backed in the witness chair. “I ultimately felt I could not serve.”

The case against Sergeant Clousing, a born-again Christian from Washington State, is a small one in a war that has produced sensational courts-martial. The same stark courtroom where Sergeant Clousing testified on Thursday was the site of the courts-martial of Pfc. Lynndie England, who mistreated and posed with naked Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib, and Sgt. Hasan K. Akbar, who rolled grenades into tents of American troops.

Yet the military prosecutors made it clear on Thursday that the stakes were high. Although they did not challenge his motives, they said if one young soldier disillusioned by the reality of war could give up the uniform without punishment, what of others?

“A message must be sent,” Capt. Jessica Alexander, the Army’s trial lawyer, said in her closing argument. “There are thousands of soldiers who may disagree with this particular war, but who stay and fight.”

Sergeant Clousing’s allegations resulted in criminal and administrative investigations. The soldiers in the Humvee were disciplined, said Maj. Richard Wagen, the investigating officer, who testified at the trial. Major Wagen said that the Iraqi teenager who was shot was close enough to the soldiers to be considered a threat.

Sergeant Clousing’s defense lawyer argued that the sergeant had experienced a “crisis of conscience,” tried to resolve it through official military channels and should not be treated like a criminal.

“Some might say a person of such convictions should never have enlisted,” said the lawyer, David W. Miner, who is based in Seattle, “but the Army needs soldiers with the strength of their convictions and personal courage to speak up when they see abuses.”

The number of soldiers who go AWOL declined from 4,597 in 2001 to 2,479 in 2004, said Maj. Tom Earnhardt, a public affairs officer at Fort Bragg. “The vast majority of our soldiers are serving our country admirably,” Major Earnhardt said.

Sergeant Clousing said in an interview that he had been a partyer and snowboarder until a sudden born-again experience in high school. He grew up in Sumner, Wash., south of Seattle. His father was an Army officer in Europe, and he lived with his mother, who was not religious.

“It sounds really cheesy,” he said, “but all of a sudden I knew that God had a different plan for me.”

He attended a Presbyterian church, studied the Bible and spent four consecutive summers on mission trips to Mexico. He joined Youth With a Mission, an evangelical group that sent him to Thailand, where he was on Sept. 11, 2001.

Out of patriotism, idealism and curiosity, he said, he joined the military. He signed up to be a “human intelligence collector,” and trained in Arizona and at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, Calif. He was assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division.

Arriving in Iraq in November 2004, he said he was stunned at the number of Iraqis he was assigned to interrogate who were either innocent or disgruntled citizens resentful about the American occupation. He said he told his commander: “Your soldiers and the way they’re behaving are creating the insurgency you’re trying to fight. It’s a cycle. You don’t see it, but I’m talking to the people you’re bringing to me.”

Sergeant Clousing said he looked into the eyes of the Iraqi teenager as he died and saw the unjustifiable loss of a life that unhinged him. He wrote in his journal, “I want to be a boy again, free of this.”

Back in Fort Bragg after five months in Iraq, Sergeant Clousing took his misgivings to his superiors. They sent him to a chaplain, who showed him in the Bible where God sent his people to war, the sergeant said. Then they sent him to a psychologist who said he could get out of the military by claiming he was crazy or gay. Sergeant Clousing said he had not been looking for a way out and found the suggestion offensive.

He called a hotline for members of the military run by a coalition of antiwar groups. The man who took the call was Chuck Fager, who runs Quaker House, a longtime pacifist stronghold in Fayetteville.

“This call was unusual,” Mr. Fager said in an interview. He said hotline receptionists took more than 7,000 calls from or about military members last year.

“I don’t have these kinds of probing discussions about moral and religious issues very often,” he said. “I said to him, you’re not crazy or a heretic for having difficulty reconciling Jesus’ teachings with what’s going on in Iraq.”

Sergeant Clousing said he could not file for conscientious objector status because he could not honestly say he was opposed to all war. After several months of soul-searching, he went AWOL.

He tried to talk with his church friends in Washington. Some understood him, but others said he had to support the government because of a biblical injunction to “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.”

“They felt that God established government and we’re supposed to be submitting to authorities, and by me leaving it’s rebelling again the authority that God established,” Sergeant Clousing said. “Their politics has infiltrated their religion so much, they can’t see past their politics.”

After 14 months, he turned himself in at Fort Lewis in Washington. He was returned to Fort Bragg, where he was assigned to a brigade made up of other soldiers who had gone AWOL. Five sat in the courtroom on Thursday, in uniform, waiting to hear clues about their future in the judge’s sentence.

“A message must be sent,”

Nothing like good ol' passive voice when you're trying to avoid responsibility.

Every war, every conflict has these stories. Zooks knew some, I knew some....every Vet knew them. His resolution helped nobody. Not him, not his country, not his faith.

Perhaps, but he'll go to sleep every night knowing he did the right thing, for himself.

I wonder why nobody ever posts about anything positive regarding Soldiers serving in Iraq? How come we only get the bad stuff? Is it because everyone here takes it as a "given" that the vast majority of our military personnel are honorable people trying to do good?

That's a very good question, though I doubt you would like or agree with the answer.

Why would you hide your real feelings now? Go ahead, do tell, it's only a chat board.

I'm not hiding a thing. I don't have an answer to hide.
But what ever that answer is, you won't like it.

Alrighty then. I thought you had something to say about it.

WTF??? What have you done with Sky? Like that has stopped you before? Palleeeeze! You and I have been disagreeing ever since I said, "Hi, Im Abell9"....dude....it's the only reason I come here. Come on now....put down the Dickel and get er said.

Sorry Abell, but saying it was never intended.
This is one of those times when not saying it serves much better.
Besides, I wouldn't say anything you don't already know.

Abell and the Captain, I would actually like to hear from any US soldiers doing time in Iraq as to whether they believe in the rightness and justness of their fight or not, not to make fun of them, but to hear honest justification of the reasons for their sacrifices. And most importantly, to find out what kind of info they are being fed, and if they have the possibilities to obtain info from outside the box...

If you guys know of any soldiers who can come along and say clearly why they are in Iraq, without compromising themselves to their heirarchy, and give us an idea of how its REALLY going as seen from the foot soldiers point of view, I'd be really interested, if thats OK with TJ. I think its pretty obvious that everyone here is totally opposed to the Operation Iraqi Liberty war, but it would be good to hear from some of the Americans actually caught up in this current mess, outside of the official "We're winning TWAT" press release for FUX News readers that blusters out of the Pentagon.

Some of the other more "military" boards I've browsed are all full of "wasting ragheads" giant video-game kind of shit, but I like to think that the majority of US men and women serving in Iraq DON'T take that point of view...at least, I hope not !!

How about it ?

Very good point Rouss.

It would be very good if the Military types here could and would put out their feelers and get someone who is serving (this would be preferable) or has served in Iraq to come on this forum and give thier views. Some one who can be objective and won't get pissy if we disagree with some of what they have to tell us. The point being, like you, some of us want to learn the truth, and if we are being given incorrect truth, then we will make incorrect decisions. And if we are somehow missinformed about these things, it is our duty and responsibility to correct this situation.

At the moment I believe I know the truth. But I am also open to the possibility that I am mistaken.
However, just because some Jar Head says a thing is so, doesn't mean that it is. If you find someone to fill in what might be perceived by some as blank spaces, you better make sure they know what they are talking about. He will be in unfriendly territory, attempting to convince skeptics, and that required bucket loads of patience, and persistance, and old fashioned smarts.

If you could sample the troops, I'm positive you'll find the same kind of opinions you find on Main Street America. Some are gung ho behind the president, and some are convinced they've been lied to and don't want to be there. If you don't think I'm being up front with you, you can seek the information you want on the net. There are lots of military bloggers online, blogs written by troops who are currently serving in Iraq. Check out this site, it's an index of current military bloggers, more information you could possibly consume. You should be able to find a Soldier here who feels exactly the same as you do about the war. Milblogs

I think this is true Cap'n, but I still wonder about over all attitude and moral in Iraq.
During the later years of Vietnam for instance, moral was very low, and not many were terribly gung ho.
I'm wondering how, generally, those boots on the ground today feel about this war,
as apposed to their feelings during the actual invasion?

I'm wondering how much of what the soldier in this story saw that changed his opinion, how many of the other 120 thousand US boots see of these things, and how does that effect their attitude?

I'm wondering if what this soldier saw that changed him, how common is it? From what we read and see it seems to be fairly common. I mean, not that terribly long ago I recall watching a home made video made by a group of Mercs that simply drove around randomly shooting civilians! We hear about troops flying off the edge after something emotional happens and a whole family winds up murdered! How common is this?

Or is this simply the cost of war, and is as much a part of war as are bullets and bombs?
And as such, why are we continuing to inflict this upon the people of a country that did not attack us, and were never a threat to us?

These are my questions.

Its a different kind of war now. Very much more intense. Objectives are measured in blocks, not kilometers. House to house fighting bar NONE, is the toughest fight their is. As to their feelings. Here ya go.

* Some of the soldiers are beginning their third and fourth rotation.
* National Guard and Reserve Troops are starting their 2nd-3rd rotations.
Its wearing the troops down. The rules of engagement are such that it is having an effect on the soldiers.
While they are performing very well, the do recognize the issue of WMD. They can't say, "bullshit" and leave but it does weigh on their minds.
Soldiers tend to "bubbelize" their lives. They get their highs and lows from their bubble. Their squad, platoon, company, team. A letter from home, a picture of a newborn. Highs last a few hours, downs last a few days.
They dont like Rumsfeld...never did. Cheney isnt real popular though GW is. Most dont buy into the political hype one way or the other. Their "give a shitter is broken" on what the press says. They like George because he likes them and treats them with respect. (Now, dont go off flaming on that...but that is the case.)
The cannot stand the anti-everything shit going on back here. They dont have time nor the emotional wherewithal to deal with it most of the time. As I said, their lives are 1 block at a time. Shower to shower, meal to meal.



The short answer is...it happens. I do not nor does anyone have a valid percentage of enagagement issues where these things happen. I am amazingly impressed with the discipline I see in the soldiers and that it doesnt happen more often. House to house fighting is a brutal, nerve wracking, and very dangerous occupation. I consider it the worst. Once it became apparant that these things did happen, patrols were monitored and followed to assure it didnt happen again. Soldiers are monitored for stress fractures. Signs are evident when a man should not be on the trigger. It has helped.
The Mercs...as you call them. Those PSD firms were cracked down on HARD! Very hard. Early on it was evident that it would and could become a problem. Less and less of it as time goes on. Screeing of the US firms is at an alltime thickness in the filtering. Very few incidents in recent months. But these guys are not really Mercs. The provide excort services for transports, VIPS, ect...fact is...they are drive around targets with damned poor equiptment for the job. They dont get heavy armor unless they buy it themselves. All they get....money.



Its a valid question Rousseau...happy to find one for you. We both have contact with those who are in the box, just leaving the box, or have been to the box several times. Now, before I go exposing somebody to you understand this.

The soldiers I have the most contact with now are....edge livers. Most dont give a rats ass about the political side of what they do. They are not totally enamored with the war in IRAQ though A-stan was very different. I would say to a 95-96% percentile, Rumsfeld is universally disliked and more so distrusted. As I indicated, GW is liked though the major consensus is and has been, he surrounded himself with the wrong people who gave him wrong information and damned poor advise.

Many soldiers like what they are doing, see results of their efforts, and a vaildity in their mission. Keep in mind though, their view is not from 30,000 feet. It is from 10-15. The bubble. Most would agree that the war was not necessary. (IRAQ) Those who are bragging about capping rags are....few and far between. Most see it as childish. OR, they are covering a fracture in their souls that will eventually seep out in the form of PTSD.

And yes, they DO know what the world is saying. They are afforded news channels, reading, papers, probably as much as we do. They are allowed to read, hear, go online, be in chat rooms, ect...Soldiers are NOT kept from the truth. The know that many are protesting the war and that some Americans side with the enemy. (They do have a hard time with that one) And last...there is a very cynical view on Liberals in general mainly because of who gets the press. Actors (who have never served) Cindy Sheehans, Jane Fonda's, and camera hogs who seem to be furthering THEIR own causes. They do not trust Kerry, Kennedy, and a host of others because they always seem to have a "see me agenda". Showboats. They dont necessarily trust politicians in general because of the Chicken Hawk issue. They remember things like Sheila Jackson Lee trying to pass legislation to give the downed Atronauts "Congressional Medla Of Honor" medals and resent it to the bone.

IN the end though, when the young man or woman comes home, they have very clear visions of what they do and do not believe and who they do and do not believe. Probably the most candid group f people you would ever want to see. If you want one...Ill get you one.

That would be a good addition to the forum Abell.
I just hope that even if we might not be agreeable, I do hope that we are at least civil.

Sgt. Clousing saw what any born again Christian who took their faith seriously would be disgusted and appalled by.

This war is an outrage in so many ways, but none more than the indiscriminate gunfire that takes place daily since we invaded, and the tens of thousands who have been caught in the middle of it.

I do think that his case, like that of this case, will be ones that are looked at more closely in the future, as they are probing the validity and legality of this war by soldiers of conviction.

i'm no genius in military matters - or anything else i guess.

however i do know a couple of things. i went on one of america's misadventures (RVN, USArmy). did war change me? definitely - when i went i was lukewarm about the army, but enthusiastic about doing my duty to god and country as my father, grandfathers, greatgrandfathers had done back to and including the revolution. even extended for six months, but by then i did not extend because of patriotic duty but because i did not know how the f*** i would fit in the rest of society and i really did not know if i was dead or alive. did it change my view about the war - hell yes i went from lukewarm to gung ho to totally disillusioned and hopeless. in the end i saw it for what it was, a sham and a parlour game played out by the rich and powerful to further control the american public and any peope with enough gall to stand up to the americans. there was no honor in vietnam, no glory - just cold metal, mud and blood. as in all war from time immemorial.

how else did it change me?
1. years of nightmares every night that still recur occassionally when i am under a lot of stress
2. alcoholism from which i have finally recovered
3. depression - not unlike what my father suffers from because of his days in the trenches and then opening some concentration camps
4. a pretty spotty career although i do have some advanced degrees and have been as high up as director at a major company or two
5. really bad family relationships due to my inability to trust and form close relationships.
6. 3 cases of severe dysentery so that my weight went from 180 to 130 and a lifelong series of digestive problems and inability to crack the 160 pound mark - note i am 6'2""
7. chronic neck and back problems from a vehicle accident when we came under fire


what else did it change? well to paraphrase a forgotten (by me) Civil War soldier, i once loved a god and country but i will never love a god or country again. lastly an appreciation for the fact that the only heroes in war are the ones who died. all the rest of us only did what we had to to survive.

i am sure a significant number of the troops in iraq are going through the same things. many will do what i did, i.e. hide behind bravado for a while, but in the end most will feel what i felt. namely disillusionment and disgust at what we did and towards the people who put us there.

Thank you Oz.
I'm glad you were born!

Danny, your contention is hard to disagree with in truth. However, at what point do soldiers of this nation get the right to say "Im not doing this"? Actually, they are allowed to NOT join. They are allowed to file for Conscientious Objector Status. They are given latitude on what to shoot and when. While some would say his actions are brave, running from the problem is no solution. AWOL is just bad judgement. And do we, because the paper printed it, believe 100% of his statements?

BY the way Ozamer...excellent post. It is for men like you I hurt the most for. Some people, well intentioned and full of conviction are left with scars that never heal, dreams that never go away, and doubt in all that happens. It aint Gods fault. Its a management issue where we stick our noses where it does not belong. Problem is, the nose they stick into the bee hive belongs to men like you.

Now when I was a young man I carried me pack
And I lived the free life of the rover.
From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback,
Well, I waltzed my Matilda all over.
Then in 1915, my country said, "Son,
It's time you stop ramblin', there's work to be done."
So they gave me a tin hat, and they gave me a gun,
And they marched me away to the war.

And the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As the ship pulled away from the quay,
And amidst all the cheers, the flag waving, and tears,
We sailed off for Gallipoli.

And how well I remember that terrible day,
How our blood stained the sand and the water;
And of how in that hell that they call Suvla Bay
We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
Johnny Turk, he was waitin', he primed himself well;
He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shell --
And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all to hell,
Nearly blew us right back to Australia.

But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
When we stopped to bury our slain,
Well, we buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs,
Then we started all over again.

And those that were left, well, we tried to survive
In that mad world of blood, death and fire.
And for ten weary weeks I kept myself alive
Though around me the corpses piled higher.
Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head,
And when I woke up in me hospital bed
And saw what it had done, well, I wished I was dead --
Never knew there was worse things than dying.

For I'll go no more "Waltzing Matilda,"
All around the green bush far and free --
To hump tents and pegs, a man needs both legs,
No more "Waltzing Matilda" for me.

So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed,
And they shipped us back home to Australia.
The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane,
Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla.
And as our ship sailed into Circular Quay,
I looked at the place where me legs used to be,
And thanked Christ there was nobody waiting for me,
To grieve, to mourn and to pity.

But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As they carried us down the gangway,
But nobody cheered, they just stood and stared,
Then they turned all their faces away.

And so now every April, I sit on my porch
And I watch the parade pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march,
Reviving old dreams of past glory,
And the old men march slowly, all bones stiff and sore,
They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
And the young people ask "What are they marching for?"
And I ask meself the same question.

But the band plays "Waltzing Matilda,"
And the old men still answer the call,
But as year follows year, more old men disappear
Someday, no one will march there at all.

Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda.
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?

And their ghosts may be heard as they march by the billabong,
Who'll come a-Waltzing Matilda with me?

-- Eric Bogle

Of course not. God has the knowledge of it and the power to prevent it, but God doesn't. I guess he's too busy smiting gays with AIDS to take care of a soldier. Priorities.

Not sure what goes behind your thinking however, being of simple mind and thought in spirtual terms, I don't question what is. It is what it is. Many choices bring about many circumstances...many I do not even begin to understand. I hope I do someday.....I think.

I question everything.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787"

"Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822."

thanks to all, but honestly i blame myself.
should have known better than to believe any government or god(s). the best we can hope for is that they leave us alone. from the beginning of recorded history they have existed primarily to line the pockets of the wealthy and to control the masses.

Welcome to the wonderful world of conservatism.

This one statement is a bright and shining example of a wedge.
I ask you, how does this help the current situation? Haven't we yet had enough of this shit?

Actually, it's my clever and delightfully refreshing way of defining what I mean by "conservatism."

When conservatism no longer includes and is associated with right wing religous fundimentalists and the PNAC Neo-cons,
I'll react with less hostility and apprehension to the word, conservatism.

Then I hope it never happens. You're so pleasant and persuasive when you're hostile and apprehensive.

Im sitting here laughing at the incredible ignorance I have personally amassed over the years. It's quite impressive really. PNAC Neocons, Fundamental Christian Right Wing Facists....I gotta learn this stuff...people been calling me this and I thought I was being complimented. And then I learn Im doing nothing now but "lining my pockets'....damn........is it too late to become enlightened? Damn, I hate being stupid.

So, tell us how you REALLY feel Abell! You pea brained, right wing fascist!

A more intelligent man would take offense however, Im sitting here laughing. Your stock just went up, Sky.

Well, Abell - it's never too late to change.

I do not agree.

His resolution lets him live with himself. The importance of that should not be minimized. I've come to understand that the most important credo for me in this life is: to thine own self be true. If I do what I think is right, in every situation, I can sleep at night.

This young man was faced with a crisis of consience - ethical, moral, and religious. His concerns were dismissed by the Army. He sounds like an extremely thoughtful young man - one who made the decision not to go back, because he had had enough. Bucking the system takes courage. Doing the right thing takes courage - especially in this instance. A lot of soldiers go over there and lose their moral compass (Abu Ghraib) - but this kid didn't let that happen to him.

In this life, we are often powerless. Sometimes all we can do is clean up our own side of the street. If all of us did, pretty soon the town, the city, the county, the state, the nation, and maybe even the world would be pretty clean. It's worth doing.

All of that sounds good Maxanne and in theory could be true. But while we read the outside of that issue with him, you see a reporter taking a stand for the young man. And, it makes it sound so true, so believable, and so him so wronged. Behind the story there is more.
His concerns were not dismissed by the Army. In fact, at each "NO" a soldier gets, he is then allowed to climb further and seek remedy for cause. All the way to a Congressman if necessary. He did not do this, Instead, he ran. Call this fundamentalist bullshit if you want but the very principals he claims to live by were violated and tarnished by his refusal to pursue it legally. And what possible good comes of a man in jail for this? What he did wasnt glorious, brave, sacrificial....it was just a stupid waste.

FYI: There was a young man in Southern California I believe who was in a newspaper about all of the terrible things he did as a "RANGER" while In IRAQ. Several blogs latched on to it, he was an instant celebrity and hero because he came forward. The reporter was commended for finding this wonderful and truthful young man.
Turns out, the young man never went to IRAQ, Never was a Ranger and was thrown out of the Army while in basic training yet he claimed to have personally killed MANY men in combat. Reporter??? He just said what he thought was....good print.

Sorry, I dont believe a damned thing one reporter says unless facts are confirmed.

Yeah, that's why women in the military have been so successful in going to their superiors with rape charges - because they can seek remedy for cause.

So, one bogus story means all stories are bogus. That's a wonderful, brainwashed, military mentality you have going for yourself. Congratulations.

So that I know the rules of your game....if a Reporter writes something you AGREE with and have compassion towards....it's true and 100% valid. And if a reporter writes something that you dont agree with and dont WANT to believe, it's bullshit??? That about sum it up? So the fact that I dont believe it until I see both sides means Im brainwashed???? This is the progressive, rational, enlightened thinking I hear so much about? Impressive. Thanks, but Ill just hang on to my brainwashed military mentality.

Give him a general discharge and press on. There's no percentage in making a martyr out of him.

"I'd rather have a blank file on my flank than some idiot nursing a conscript syndrome."
-Robert A. Heinlein

Ah, trying to turn your stuff around and blame it somehow on me. How very unusual, and clever. I've never seen a neocon do that before.
You're the one who said the article was bogus, based on the past experience of a bogus story.

I notice you completely avoided the mention of soldiers raping their fellow female soldiers, and how little attention is paid to that issue by their "superiors."

Your brainwashed military mentality is not a very good excuse, though it is completely believeable.
They call marines Jarheads for a reason. Granted, you aren't a Marine, though the principle still applies.


Your view HAS to be different than mine, and your experiences as a soldier DO influence your opinion.
Just as my view and opinion are influenced by my LACK of Military experience.



C'mon Abell, you're smarter and much more capable than this.
The humble routine playes out real fast, especially when it's over used.
Do not make the mistake of trying to play me, or the other members of this board as fools.

Thanks for your sacrifice. Democracies require sacrifice, and you sure as hell have made yours. We must all insure these sacrifices are not in vain.

Absolutely agreed.

Ok. Did I read you wrong then when you said the above? I took to it mean that since I don't believe news strories until both sides are seen that I was considered brainwashed by you. Was my interpretation wrong? Is that what is being said above. If not...explain it. If I was reasonably close in my interpretation, then I was merely pointing out that you obviously WANT to believe it as it was written. I don't until I have all the facts. Does that mean I am brainwashed? You choose to believe it as written...I don't.



Recognise this? Thats what I wrote.

I think, maybe Jubal can lend his legal expertise on this matter, that a person who is accused of rape is innocent until proven guilty. Even under UCMJ. And just for the sake of point, women in the civilian sector are having a much easier time of seeking remedy???

Completely avoided? Maxanne...does it not address rape, UCMJ (Uniformed Code Of Military Justice) and innocence until guilt is proven? So what am I to say about it? Im not a subject matter expert and the truth be known, your not either. Your making allegations based on written stuff that may or may not have merit. Has rape occured. Indeed. I think in 23 years I knew of possibly 3-4 cases where soldiers were prosecuted. But, it didnt get front line news...we knew it was there, we knew it was sent to trial, and we knew when the soldier was found guilty, they went to Leavenworth? Is that different than civilian sector? Has rape occured and been ignored? I would have to say probably but dont know. Can we say with some reasonable amount of certainty that sometimes these things are fabricated? Maybe. But whats your point? Really....what IS your point? I was stating the young man in question did have options...you brought in the rape thing.
You read something or heard something that "Superiors" ignored it. Facts??????? How do you know it was ignored? The due process thing still has to exist. Privacy issues has to exist. Proof has to be shown. They do that in Civilian world too, yea?



SKY WROTE


Sky? What thee fuck ARE you talking about? Im having a conversation, debate, disagreement with Maxanne and nowhere in there have I played humble or played you as a fool. I disagree with a line of thought, stated so pretty plainly. I do NOT agree with her tact, trac, or belief that the article must be genuine and accurate. And if I make a mistake Im sure you will point it out.
This is what I wrote, SKY.


...see the either or?????? It aint humble...its opinion.

You also said...



And that's worn out. Your arguments are quite lucid and intelligent. This humble stuff doesn't help you.
YOur playing the game by your rules just as we play by ours.

The moment I think yer jerkin me, I'm gone! No second chances.

Naaa....PM inbound. Im not debating this on the table.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.
Abell is a good guy. (for a puney brained, conservative, military type)

Oh, I beg to differ. On the subject of rape, I am something of an expert.




That's why it pays to read, and not just react. You said: This implies that the concerns of soldiers are never dismissed - and that all they have to do continue to pursue action with higher ups. I commented that that concept didn't seem to apply to women in the military being raped by their fellow soldiers. You can think of 3-4 cases where there was actually a prosecution.

I know a young woman who spent 18 months in Iraq in a National Guard unit. She was fortunate, the guys in her unit treated her like gold. Other women, in other units were raped in the showers by their comrades. This is a patriotic young woman, who voted (twice maude help us) for the Bumbler in Chief, and was eager to serve her country - this is no wild eyed pinko liberal (as you would almost certainly typecast me) telling me stories.




Yes, obviously I'm an idiot because I'm a civilian.

Rape
Rape
Rape and Murder


My point is that all the happy crap you're spouting about how soldiers have access to people who will listen to them is bunk. The military works overtime to bury all of its dirty little secrets - like the way women are treated, like torture, like civilian murders and rapes - all covered up in the name of God and Country. I doubt if the concerns of the young man in this story were treated with any kind of respect or seriousness.

Obviously, you're both right. The military does have very thorough procedures for raising concerns and seeking redress. And those procedures are often abused, or applied as a go-through-the-motions whitewash. The interesting part is that Abell doubts the story at issue (which by the way had bugger-all to do with rape) and you doubt that the sergeant's concerns were treated with respect or seriousness. Both of which say nothing about the story, but worlds about your orientations and assumptions.

Back on the subject, I repeat my earlier, pragmatic solution to the case. Give him a general discharge and press on. He doesn't like the Army, and the Army doesn't need him. I see no reason at all to turn this into a circus.