Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: War is not a solution for terrorism
OLD American Century / White Rose Society message boards > Political Discussion forums > Politics In General
odanny
QUOTE
THERE IS SOMETHING important to be learned from the recent experience of the United States and Israel in the Middle East: that massive military attacks, inevitably indiscriminate, are not only morally reprehensible, but useless in achieving the stated aims of those who carry them out.

The United States, in three years of war, which began with shock-and-awe bombardment and goes on with day-to-day violence and chaos, has been an utter failure in its claimed objective of bringing democracy and stability to Iraq. The Israeli invasion and bombing of Lebanon has not brought security to Israel; indeed it has increased the number of its enemies, whether in Hezbollah or Hamas or among Arabs who belong to neither of those groups.

I remember John Hersey's novel, ``The War Lover," in which a macho American pilot, who loves to drop bombs on people and also to boast about his sexual conquests, turns out to be impotent. President Bush, strutting in his flight jacket on an aircraft carrier and announcing victory in Iraq, has turned out to be much like the Hersey character, his words equally boastful, his military machine impotent.

The history of wars fought since the end of World War II reveals the futility of large-scale violence. The United States and the Soviet Union, despite their enormous firepower, were unable to defeat resistance movements in small, weak nations -- the United States in Vietnam, the Soviet Union in Afghanistan -- and were forced to withdraw.

Even the ``victories" of great military powers turn out to be elusive. Presumably, after attacking and invading Afghanistan, the president was able to declare that the Taliban were defeated. But more than four years later, Afghanistan is rife with violence, and the Taliban are active in much of the country.

The two most powerful nations after World War II, the United States and the Soviet Union, with all their military might, have not been able to control events in countries that they considered to be in their sphere of influence -- the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe and the United States in Latin America.

Beyond the futility of armed force, and ultimately more important, is the fact that war in our time inevitably results in the indiscriminate killing of large numbers of people. To put it more bluntly, war is terrorism. That is why a ``war on terrorism" is a contradiction in terms. Wars waged by nations, whether by the United States or Israel, are a hundred times more deadly for innocent people than the attacks by terrorists, vicious as they are.

The repeated excuse, given by both Pentagon spokespersons and Israeli officials, for dropping bombs where ordinary people live is that terrorists hide among civilians. Therefore the killing of innocent people (in Iraq, in Lebanon) is called accidental, whereas the deaths caused by terrorists (on 9/11, by Hezbollah rockets) are deliberate.

This is a false distinction, quickly refuted with a bit of thought. If a bomb is deliberately dropped on a house or a vehicle on the grounds that a ``suspected terrorist" is inside (note the frequent use of the word suspected as evidence of the uncertainty surrounding targets), the resulting deaths of women and children may not be intentional. But neither are they accidental. The proper description is ``inevitable."

So if an action will inevitably kill innocent people, it is as immoral as a deliberate attack on civilians. And when you consider that the number of innocent people dying inevitably in ``accidental" events has been far, far greater than all the deaths deliberately caused by terrorists, one must reject war as a solution for terrorism.

For instance, more than a million civilians in Vietnam were killed by US bombs, presumably by ``accident." Add up all the terrorist attacks throughout the world in the 20th century and they do not equal that awful toll.

If reacting to terrorist attacks by war is inevitably immoral, then we must look for ways other than war to end terrorism, including the terrorism of war. And if military retaliation for terrorism is not only immoral but futile, then political leaders, however cold-blooded their calculations, may have to reconsider their policies.

Howard Zinn is a professor emeritus at Boston University and the author of ``A People's History of the United States ."


Globe
Rousseau
Now the Israeli's are going to try negotiations and diplomacy with Hamas to have the safe return of their captured serviceman. They resist diplomacy with the Hezbollah, because they don't negotiate with "Terrorists", but are hoping that the UN will do their crawling and pleading for them.
All that bloodshed, all that destruction, all that pollution, all those new "terrorists" created to revenge their losses and humiliation, all that suffering, all for NOTHING. wall.gif

If they had asked the advice of any sane, well informed, intelligent Human, they would have entered into diplomacy first, and surely found a compromise that could have avoided war. Who the fuck is advising these morons that lead these nations, and WHY are they still being listened too ???? mad.gif

In a way, its good that the Israeli's got their nose bloodied, their unsheathed war machine has had its balls kicked, and their kudos has taken a sorry beating. Now, perhaps, we'll see a REALLY SERIOUS effort to negotiate a LASTING SOLUTION for the Middle East, a Palestinian Nation, and a free and democratic Lebanon, and a quiet and respectful Israel, safe behind her "Iron Curtain", and maybe, after witnessing the amazing successes of PNAC inspired US "Gunboat diplomacy" in Iraq, Iran and Syria will be left alone to gradually merge with the "Civilised" World, as their youth can now see the inadequacies of the West, and are beginning to see the failings of their own regimes. If you can't base your hopes for a Planetary optimistic future WITHOUT the Military/Industrial complex and it's insatiable lusts, what can you base future hope on, because the PNAC and it's ilk's little projects DO NOT WORK. Ever. wry2.gif
odanny
Well, I can only wonder if anyone will ever learn from the past.

I seem to remember one of the leading voices in this "Fiasco", as Thomas Ricks so correctly terms it, was once a critic himself, only a critic of spending vast sums of money in Vietnam on the military industrial complex and now resides over the most egregious abuses seen since either the Civil War or WWII, more likely the Civil War

http://southernstudies.org/reports/Intro.htm
Captain America
It's a tough world over there. While it is easy for us to say "negotiate" it isn't that easy for Arab or Israeli leaders to do.

Remember Anwar Sadat? Yitzhak Rabin?

There are fundamentalist groups on both sides that will do their level best to sabatoge any peace treaty or any other kind of mutual agreement that Israel and Arabs may come to.

So, while negotiations sound good, how do you suggest they actually implement an agreement? How do leaders of both sides convince the populace that the agreement will be beneficial to them?

There are an awful lot of people over there who WANT war. How do you deal with them?
Gadzooks!
Could get the UN in to establish a buffer between Israel and everybody else in the region. It's been suggested in the UN, but the US always vetoes. 'Sup wit dat?
odanny
QUOTE(Captain America @ Wednesday, 6 September 2006, 8:55 am) [snapback]71721[/snapback]

It's a tough world over there. While it is easy for us to say "negotiate" it isn't that easy for Arab or Israeli leaders to do.

Remember Anwar Sadat? Yitzhak Rabin?

There are fundamentalist groups on both sides that will do their level best to sabatoge any peace treaty or any other kind of mutual agreement that Israel and Arabs may come to.

So, while negotiations sound good, how do you suggest they actually implement an agreement? How do leaders of both sides convince the populace that the agreement will be beneficial to them?

There are an awful lot of people over there who WANT war. How do you deal with them?


What I would wish for, at this stage, is a government that is not adverse to diplomacy, and much more adverse to using military force in an attempt to solve the worlds problems.

Most reasonable people can see this, the problem in the world is rogue regimes and dangerous governments, like the United States, Iran, North Korea, etc....
Captain America
QUOTE(odanny @ Wednesday, 6 September 2006, 9:19 am) [snapback]71729[/snapback]

What I would wish for, at this stage, is a government that is not adverse to diplomacy, and much more adverse to using military force in an attempt to solve the worlds problems.

Most reasonable people can see this, the problem in the world is rogue regimes and dangerous governments, like the United States, Iran, North Korea, etc....


You mean an Israeli government not averse to diplomacy? Arab? Or US?

I agree with you odanny, I agree with gadzooks, I'm just attempting to flesh out how peace on the ground can really be acheived. Large portions of each population involved are either too opposed to living in peace with the other, or are too paranoid to trust the other side.

It might come down to this; each government might have to force peace on their own people through laws and possibly military force, instead of using them in an offensive nature against the other side, use them in a defensive mode to force the folk to leave the other side alone. Who knows? Maybe peace will grow on them?
odanny
QUOTE(Captain America @ Wednesday, 6 September 2006, 9:27 am) [snapback]71732[/snapback]

You mean an Israeli government not averse to diplomacy? Arab? Or US?

I agree with you odanny, I agree with gadzooks, I'm just attempting to flesh out how peace on the ground can really be acheived. Large portions of each population involved are either too opposed to living in peace with the other, or are too paranoid to trust the other side.

It might come down to this; each government might have to force peace on their own people through laws and possibly military force, instead of using them in an offensive nature against the other side, use them in a defensive mode to force the folk to leave the other side alone. Who knows? Maybe peace will grow on them?


I mean specifically, the United States. And by extension, Israel, which marches in lockstep with Washington.

So if Georgie likes bombing Iraq, there is no one to put the brakes on Israel, and its latest offensive in Lebanon is tied directly in with the United States. As Hezbollah rebuilds the region of Southern Lebanon, it puts up signs that read "Made in USA" besides the construction zones. The sign refers to the rubble.

We not only know have to figure out how to win a peace in this region we have to extricate 130,000 US soldiers as well.

Doing nothing at all would be preferable to doing what the Bush foreign policy is presently.

Captain America
Well, Hezbollah came out of this smelling like a rose. I wonder when they'll return the kidnapped Israeli Soliders, wouldn't that be a good way to start?
Gadzooks!
And we can sweep over a thousand dead Lebanese civilians, and all that destroyed Lebanese private property and public infrastructure under the rug. Tell the displaced Lebanese, "Sorry 'bout that!". A great place to start.
sky of mind
QUOTE
The United States, in three years of war, which began with shock-and-awe bombardment and goes on with day-to-day violence and chaos, has been an utter failure in its claimed objective of bringing democracy and stability to Iraq.


Key words here, "UTTER FAILURE!"





QUOTE
It's a tough world over there. While it is easy for us to say "negotiate" it isn't that easy for Arab or Israeli leaders to do.


Sorry Cap'n, but as the old saying goes, "if you can't stand the heat, etc etc"

Remember a small man from India by the name of Gandhi?
Yes he was killed for his efforts, but he also ultimatly freed India from British rule, and it didn't require a revolution filled with death and killing. Clearly, with one or two brave leaders willing to risk it all, peace can be accomplished. But as long as the leaders are self serving, peace will always be out of reach.


BTW. Yes Anwar Sadat was killed for his peace efforts with Israel. But since his time, how many wars has Egypt been involved in?
Rousseau
Like you say, Cap'n, the problem is complex, and there are no easy-fix solutions, but I really think that the people of all the Middle Eastern states are willing to try something, anything, that may bring some semblance of peace, because up until now, nothing has worked.
Rabin (bless his soul) came close, but the nuts won again. The jerks on both sides are the problem, as you so rightly point out. But they are in the minority, at least according to friends, family and sources in that neck of the woods, but the nuts keep on prodding the tiger, and the result drags everyone down. This is where the criminal PNAC and their allies (for, once again, it is mostly their fault..) dismembering and claw-pulling of the UN has taken away what could have been a true force of stabilisation and peace-keeping for this region.

The US Administration's refusal to aid the UN become a REAL force of peace ("Speak softly and carry a big stick" comes to mind here...) and its deliberate sabotage and smearing through it's "Mouth of Sauron", Bolton, was all done in order to let the USA wiggle itself into a position of the "World's Policeman", with it's finger on the oil..er..pulse, and the result of this disastrous policy is slowly being exposed. mad.gif

There MUST be an International and independent form of Justice, based on the wisest and most effective Laws and Rules of ALL Countries and Cultures, backed up by impartial, motivated, well-led and heavily armed Rapid Intervention forces, and supported by armed and trained for civilian interaction "Peace-keeping" Gendarmes and aid workers, to ensure stability and repair damage after the nuts have had their little play (and been thwacked down by the UN..) These forces normally wouldn't be needed if you had the best and brightest diplomats, working for the UN and unhindered by economic and vested interests, bringing all parties to the table and saying "Look, lets compromise.." because even though compromise is often not wanted, violent death and destruction is generally less interesting.....

It would be nice to see unilateral agreements on restricting ALL nations offensive army's, excepting the UN, instead working on defensive forces and trained civilian "Civil Security" volounteers, used for homeland defence, or disaster and rescue operations. The huge piles of money left over could be diverted into, gee, healthcare, education, looking after the elderly, repairing the Planet, stuff like that.

The only problem I see with this is that the small group of men who are getting obscenely rich and powerful at everyone elses expense may just need to come down to Earth, and I'm not sure that they want that.... wall.gif
Celticrebel
QUOTE(Gadzooks! @ Wednesday, 6 September 2006, 10:12 am) [snapback]71727[/snapback]

Could get the UN in to establish a buffer between Israel and everybody else in the region. It's been suggested in the UN, but the US always vetoes. 'Sup wit dat?



I'm not as um..schooled on the successes and failures of the UN as of late, but it seems to me that most nations could really give a shit about most resolutions that are passed by the UN because they really aren't going to be enforced. It may be a great place for negotiating on occasion (as well as racking up HUGE parking and speeding tickets), but it seems as though it is starting to go the way of the League of Nations, toothless. pointless, and past its usefulness.

On a side note, I thought it was amusing that the European Countries have criticized the US for so long about the Iraq war (deservedly so), but when it has come time for them to put up in the Lebanon-Israeli conflict, they just can't muster the troops to keep the peace. A bit hypocritical IMHO.
Rousseau
Celticrebel, the reason the European and other contributing forces took time to commit was because the US and Israel were deliberatly stalling the UN on deciding a clear mandate of UN action, in other words, giving clear instructions on armed retaliation to violations of the cease-fire agreement. (From BOTH sides !)

The UN wanted the right to knock down aircraft and helicopters that ignored the lines drawn, and the possibility to knock out tanks and other heavy military equipment that was violating the cease-fire agreement, as well as impounding arms and impeaching Hezbollah actions and movements. The US and Israel just wanted the UN to act as a proxy force against the Hezbollah, which is totally unsatisfactory and utterly against the whole idea of an INDEPENDENT AND IMPARTIAL UN peace-keeping force !!

The Israeli's in particular might have a gotten a bit edgy thinking about batteries of UN swing-fire AA missiles armed by highly skilled operators removing their total air-superiority arrogance over-flying of sovereign air-space. Or the battalion of "Le Clerc" heavy tanks which, under the current UN mandate, are now legally able to engage them if they violate (again...) the cease-fire..... rolleyes.gif
Captain America
QUOTE(Gadzooks! @ Wednesday, 6 September 2006, 10:33 am) [snapback]71745[/snapback]

And we can sweep over a thousand dead Lebanese civilians, and all that destroyed Lebanese private property and public infrastructure under the rug. Tell the displaced Lebanese, "Sorry 'bout that!". A great place to start.


Never would have happened if your heros hadn't violated the border established by the UN for the purpose of kidnapping two Israeli Soldiers who (as far as I understand) were on their side of the border minding their own business.

I've already stated for the record that I consider the Israeli reaction an "over" reaction. But, the fact of the matter is, nothing would have happened if Hezbollah had just live and let live. Nobody was bombing anybody at the time, there was no serious fighting occuring in that part of the region at the time.

Hezbollah could have ended the fighting anytime they felt like it, all they had to do was give the two Soldiers back. They still haven't. So what the hell was it all for?
trinharder
I'm no expert on UN rules, but I can tell you what I'd like to see happen. Kick the US out of the UN for non-payment of dues, and kick Isreal out for failure to comply, then without the interference of those two entites, pass some resolution that might work, intervention, trials, whatever. Just a thought that popped into my head that I haven't had time to think thru yet, so don't ask for details. rolleyes.gif
Gadzooks!
Not my heroes. Israel had this invasion planned well over a year in advance, and were looking for an opportunity. Hizballah unfortunately provided the excuse. My heroes in this are the Lebanese people. And that border is a border that has frequently been violated by Israel.
Captain America
QUOTE(Gadzooks! @ Friday, 8 September 2006, 9:09 am) [snapback]72011[/snapback]

Not my heroes. Israel had this invasion planned well over a year in advance, and were looking for an opportunity. Hizballah unfortunately provided the excuse. My heroes in this are the Lebanese people. And that border is a border that has frequently been violated by Israel.


And from some of the information I've read, Hezbollah had been planning this for six years. While UN observers stood idely by and twiddeld their thumbs.

But again, we're falling into this deadly tendancy of looking to the past in order to justify current wrong doings, mistakes, miscalculations, using the past for an excuse. Thats why I maintain that the only way for these people to live in peace is for all concerned to forgive (not forget) and move on.

If all parties involved expended half the time and energy in solving the problems peacefully as they have on fighting, they'd be living in peace by now. With Israel, perhaps a bit smaller, but living peacefully and enjoying security, while the Palestinians would have their independance, indeed, their own country, with no need for a Hezbollah or Hamas.
sky of mind
The people who live in the area will end the violence as soon as they are done with it.
When the people of the area have hurt enough, they will all beg for peace.
I just wish the US wasn't the arms supplier to make that hurt possible.
Max-1
By deffinition alone, TERRORISM, the USA fits right in.

How does that go, Tj?

It's not Terrorism when we do it.

(Need a poster of that one)

sky of mind
QUOTE(Max-1 @ Sunday, 10 September 2006, 2:11 am) [snapback]72128[/snapback]

By deffinition alone, TERRORISM, the USA fits right in.

How does that go, Tj?

It's not Terrorism when we do it.

(Need a poster of that one)




Equally,

It's not Torture when we do it.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.