I'm glad I don't live in Iowa since I fly my flag upside down as a sign of the distress our Constitution and freedoms are under.

http://progressive.org/mag_mc071906

I read the post on the Marine site and feel it such a shame to see those who have served so gallantly, being fooled into thinking that exercising our freedoms is a threat to our nation. If only they would remember their oath to protect the Constitution of the United States of America from all enemies both foreign and domestic. Then they could join us in holding this administration accountable for shredding our Constitution.

I look forward to turning my flag back upright, as soon as our Constitution is upheald and our rights restored.

Fool you once, shame on them.
Fool you twice, shame on you.
Fool you thrice, Helloooooooooo?

I don't know if you have served or not. But I'd cut'em a little slack. Speaking for myself, as retired Army, combat vet, and disabled in giving the best years of my life in service to this nation, the flag is sacred to us, and seeing it being flown upside down is emotional to us. I know that might sound silly, but thats how it is. When you fight and see your best friends die serving under that banner, you don't like seeing it flown upside down. Believe me, those Marines, are well aware of thier oath, even if they get emotional about the flag. When it comes down to it, they know that burning the flag is freedom of speech. But they don't have to like it; I don't like it either. But I do realize it is freedom of speech and I have and will continue to protect that right, even if I don't agree that burning the flag (or flying it upside down) is necessarily the best way to express yourself. To each his own.

But his reason was in honor of ex-military who could not get treatment!!!

I dont cut anyone who uses death threats as a "OK" freedom of expression. An upside down flag says "Distress" and it was in honor of a soldier who was in "distress' unaided by the government he fought for. I do support that!

Your right, death threats are just over the top. I must have missed the part about honoring ex-military, my bad.

Flag protocol is that flying the flag upside down is sign of "immenent danger" and that flying the flag upside down to make a political point isn't illegal, it is not recommended. I guess one could look at it the same as burning a flag.

As I have seen stated elsewhere, I would rather see someone wrap himself in the Constitution and burn the flag than burn the Constitution and wrap himself in the flag ("It's just a God-damned piece of paper" - GWB). I also am a combat vet, earlier war. During the run-up to our current fiasco in Iraq, I was protesting...flying a large bannner that read "NO WAR" from a freeway overpass. I was also flying the American flag upside down, the international distress signal, first used by ships at sea. I was approached by two gentlemen who stated they were ex-marines, and they insisted that I fly the flag "proper." I explained what I was doing, and they grew insistent. At some point, they realized I was not going to comply with their demand, and they started talking about an ass-kicking. I stepped forward, and silently got in their faces. Fortunately, they backed water. A headline reading "Local peace activist throws marines from freeway overpass" would not have spoken well of my work. When the well-being of the symbol becomes more important than the well-being of that for which it stands, it is time to break the symbol.

What is the purpose of burning a flag or flying it upsidedown? I get the part about it being a form of protest, but beyond that what is the goal? Serious question.

Flying it upside-down was meant, in my case, that I believed my country was in imminent danger. Not from Iraq, but from its own leadership. A statement. I still believe that my country, and the world, are threatened by my country's government.

Since the flag is in fact a potent and emotional SYMBOL, perhaps it's to symbolize what the protester sees as the governments desecration of the things the flag stands for. They're saying "if we're going down this road to facism (or whatever) we might as well burn the flag because you're destroying all that it stands for". It's freedom of expression, yes, but in deference to the feelings of so many who have sacrifced and are offended by it I think it respectful not to do it. Fact is, hardly anyone does (burn flags) and where they do it's usually prosecuted by some nuisance ordinance.

Okay, I respect that.

I haven't been involved with many protests. Most of the time I've done things like submit letters to the editor of newspapers, written my elected representatives and such. But ultimately, you are attempting to influence others to see things the way you do, right?

I guess I'm asking those who have more experience with protesting, is influencing other opinions the goal? And if so, how do you do that if you end up in a confrontation?

Martin Luther King's protests seemed pretty effective and confrontation is the whole point. That one-sided violence resulted made them more effective by exposing the violence and brutality of the system they were protesting against. BTW your avatar is technically a breech of flag protocol. Pretty silly, huh ?

I also write letters (the old-fashioned kind), send emails, make phone calls and attend meetings. I have also spoken at churches and schools. Public demonstration is a good way to draw public attention to issues that are not being reported by the mainstream media. The American people are becoming sheep, and if they don't see it on TeeVee, it isn't real.

I don't get the "flag thing" that you American's seem to have.

Canadians don't seem to get as worked up about their flag.

Hell, there are very few "hi no maru" (Japanese flags) flying here, as most Japanese are ashamed of their flag.

It seems like you yanks get a little worked up over something that's a SYMBOL.

Only in election years.

We have become so obsessed with the symbol because we have abandoned the principles for which it once (may have) stood.

Some people, like me, harken back to times passed when I see the flag. I know, I know, it sounds corny but I do. Generally, when I see the American flag I think back to the WWII generation and my grandfather and grandmother. Many Americans have an emotional attachment to the flag, I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing. A certain amount of sensible patriotism a good thing IMO, and there are different ways to demonstrate that patriotism. In the final anaylisis, we all love this country.

It might surprise you to know, but my grandfather, who fought for this country in WWII, absolutely hated the government. He wouldn't trust it to shine his shoes. And I'm somewhat a knock off from him. I'm obvioulsy not as progressive as most people here, but I do challenge authority, I do question the government, demand accountability etc.

Maybe it's just an American thing?

But don't you work for the government, Captain? Doesn't that make it harder to question it?

No, not at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong Scorp, I haven't taken the whole course yet, but isn't the flag an important symbol to Communists?

I agree 100%. It may be my JW roots where we didn't believe in "symbols" but its seriously just a piece of cloth. I'm not going to go around stepping on glass just because someone put value on an inanimate, common object. Its not like someones burning a rare painting or what not either.



It seems fitting with the subject. The soldiers fight for their COUNTRY, not some silly piece of cloth. It goes much deeper than that.

Yeah, speaking of losing sight of what it's all about, check out this letter to the editor from the local paper yesterday. Does this sound like a threat to you? (This is a response to a LTTE from a guy who said he'd been hassled for the atheist sentiments on his car.)

http://www.dothaneagle.com/servlet/Satelli...letterstoeditor

We'll look foreward to seeing the letter I know that YOU'LL write in response

I am a Vietnam era veteran--4 years active and another 3 years in the Guard (air and army). I was fortunate enough not to see combat, and give thanks for that everyday. I served to protect and defend the Constitution, and continue to do so as a civilian. That includes the right of others to express themselves in ways I personally disapprove. The decision to fly my flag in the distress position was made after much deliberation. Democracy is not a spectator activity, you have to be involved.

Our flag, while a secular symbol, is sacred, but the freedoms it represents are more sacred. I have much more tolerance for one who burns the flag in protest, than a leader who wraps himself in the flag and proceeds to shred the Constitution.

I agree completely Gadzooks. Our Constitution, republic, and nation are in imminend danger from this administration.

It's interest that the only countries I know of that have flag desicration laws are Iran, North Korea, and Cuba. Oh, and Natzi Germany had one too. Rather puts our Rebublican manipulators in some interesting company.

Patriotic obligation and the obstructionaries that call it dissent have managed to turn the process into an act of treason. This case point it out plainly. On his property, he was flying his flag, as he saw fit. He wasn't desecrating the flag and wearing it as a bathing suit or using it as a towel, etc. No, he was exorcising his given right to express his dissent to the Oligarchy in charge that has hijacked this Government. His support for a mother that lost her son in this illegal war is NOT a crime. Even if people disagree.

Now, this marine, just like many other factions of the Reich-Wingers that exist in this country is so wrong. It is not morally correct to publish death threats on web sites. DEATH THREATS. Question: Who will press charges on the marine?

I used to think that mean people sucked.
They don't. Oh sure some do, but generally mean people are left alone and they don't matter much.

It's Dictitorial people who suck!
But putting "Dictitorial People Suck" on a bumper sticker somehow seems to lose the magic!

It's a symptom of authoritarism, something not needed in a free society. People are threatend aroung the world for: not covering their head or other part, for covering somethilng, for not shaving, for shaving, for having a beard too short, for not haing a beard, for wearing shorts, for not wearing something, for having sex, for not having sex...pick your dislike.

I've concluded that our government has to be secular. Decisions need to be made of fact, not dogma. Obviously ethics has to be a factor in the decision. Ethics and religious dogma are not the same.

Not really. Which flag would be important to "Communists?"

Why would I have an emotional tie to the Chinese flag? Or the Soviet flag?

We get interesting letters from fundamentalist zealots in our paper too. I damn sure don't them making the laws of the land...theocracy is scary as hell. They sure don't like personal freedom. I can begin to imagine how relieved some of our forefathers were to get away from them and be free.

I happend onto a store with some nice American Flag lapel pins yesterday. It looks nice on my new sports coat.--especially upside down.

My wife bought a supply of flag stamps for her office, and guess what? They all go on upside down. I'd love to see 70% of the flags in this country upside down as a message to our politicians that if they don't fix it, we will.

Symbols affect individuals and societys profoundly at a psychological level. They represent our values, our aspirations, our fears. It's no mystery that individuals and societies attach great importance to truly effective ones, because the act of seeng them gives rise to the emotions we have about the things they represent. I think the flag that most of us see as the universal symbol of communism is both powerful and noble if you understand the symbology, even if I don't think that any government is likely to achieve the goals it represents. If I'm wrong about it's universality or the affection that true believers attach to it I stand corrected. As an afterthought it occurs to me that because most of us don't understand the symbology, and because it has been so associated with the '"evil empire" over the years, that it has come to represent our fears instead of the positive message intended.

The hammer and sickle is important to me, but it's not overly so, and I don't get as worked up as some American's seem to over the stars and stripes.

The yellow star is a much more universal symbol of communism, and is present in nearly every communist flag on the planet.

First, notice this was written a year ago. Second, notice that we used to salute the flag with the Nazi salute - until 1943. Third, I agree that the American attitude amounts to flag worship. Ridiculous.

The Blasphemy of Flag Worship
By David Morris, AlterNet
Posted on June 21, 2005, Printed on July 22, 2006
http://www.alternet.org/story/22268/

In a few days the House of Representatives will overwhelmingly approve, for the sixth time, a Constitutional Amendment to allow Congress to make it a crime to deface the American flag.

In three previous votes, the Senate could not muster the two-thirds majority needed to send the bill to the states for ratification. In 2000, the last time the Senate took up the matter, 63 voted for the amendment, four short of a two-thirds majority. Since then Republicans have picked up five Senate seats. That is why USA Today describes the upcoming vote, scheduled sometime after July 4, as a "cliffhanger."

If Congress passes the amendment, will the states ratify it? Time will tell. But we should recall that every state legislature has passed resolutions urging Congress to send it such an amendment.

We can expect to hear a lot of First Amendment-loving progressives condemn this Congressional initiative as inappropriate and dangerous. I would hope that the Christian right would join the opposition. Not out of a love for the First Amendment, but because of their devotion to the Ten Commandments.

Devout Christians firmly believe that the Ten Commandments should be etched in stone in our courthouses and emblazoned on the walls of every classroom. The message of the Second Commandment is clear. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..."

Can anyone deny that the American flag has achieved the status of a graven image?

The contention that flag worship is blasphemy was a key element before the Supreme Court in 1940. In that case it upheld the right of a Pennsylvania school district to expel two students who refused to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. The two teenagers were members of the Jehovah's Witness denomination. Their church believed that pledging allegiance to the flag violated the Biblical admonition (Exodus 20) against worshipping or bowing down to any graven image of God. The court decided that the need for national security and national unity allowed Congress to force individuals to violate the Ten Commandments.

In 1943, the Supreme Court reversed its 1940 decision. That reversal probably had less to do with religion than with the Court's realization that, at the height of a war against totalitarian regimes, a central feature of which was a slavish devotion to national symbols, compelling us to worship the flag was inapt. (As a side note, that same year the Flag Code itself was changed. No longer were students required to salute the flag with one arm extended forward. The similarity to the Nazi salute was too embarrassing. From that time onwards, we were told to put our hands over our hearts.)

The evidence that we literally worship the flag is overwhelming. Unique among all nations, we have a Flag Day, a Flag code etiquette, a national anthem dedicated to the flag and a verbal salute to the flag. Twenty-seven states require school children to salute the flag daily.

Some might argue that we are simply saluting a symbol, that we are actually pledging allegiance to our country. But the words tell a different story. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of American, and to the republic for which it stands." The insertion of the word "and" makes clear that the flag and the republic are two different entities. We are pledging allegiance to the flag itself.

If further evidence is needed, consider these words from the Congressionally enacted U.S. Flag code (Title 36 USC 10, PL 344). "The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing."

Just eight months ago, Lincoln, Nebraska police arrested a 64-year-old Vietnam War veteran who flew the American flag upside down to protest the war in Iraq. He was arrested for violating a 1977 Nebraska law prohibiting the "mutilation of a flag," which it defines this way. "A person commits the offense of mutilating a flag if such person intentionally casts contempt or ridicule upon a flag..." The penalty is three months in jail. Of course, in many societies, the punishment for ridiculing God is far greater.

Our national anthem, sung at every sporting event and increasingly, at every mass political gathering, is the only one I know that focuses its devotion solely on a flag. "And the rockets' red glare / the bombs bursting in air / gave proof through the night that our Flag was still there." Congress has repeatedly thwarted attempts to substitute the eminently more singable and entirely more fitting song, "America the Beautiful," for "The Star Spangled Banner."

Following up on its 1943 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court in 1989 and again in 1990 declared that ridiculing or defacing the American flag was protected by the First Amendment. Which is why Congress is now about to send a Constitutional Amendment to the states.

God bless those who will fight this Congressional initiative as a dangerous precedent, the first Constitutional Amendment that restricts the reach of the Bill of Rights. Their devotion to the first 10 amendments to the Constitution is admirable. Perhaps we can expect devout Christians' equally fierce devotion to the Ten Commandments to energize them in opposition to this initiative.

David Morris is co-founder and vice president of the Institute for Local Self Reliance in Minneapolis, Minnnesota and director of its New Rules project.
© 2006 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/22268/

Thanks Ping, for still another perspective that includes some fascinating history besides. What could be more of an absurd contradiction than to define an inanimate (except on a windy day), inorganic object as a 'living thing'. That anyone would think this however is further evidence of the power of symbols.

[quote name='Pinget' date='Saturday, 22 July 2006, 7:40 am' post='64584']
First, notice this was written a year ago. Second, notice that we used to salute the flag with the Nazi salute - until 1943. Third, I agree that the American attitude amounts to flag worship. Ridiculous.

Thank you. that was a very informative post. I find it interesting how people get so wrapped up in symbols without understanding the meanings and history behind them. This especially true with many religious symbols.

Most people are not aware that the Pledge was written for a childrens school production, was written by a minister who was also a socialist, and did not contain any reference to God.

Personally my allegance is to the Constitution, and the flag is a symbol to remind us of where we came from and what we stand for. Lets start with liberty and justice for all.

Ive read alot of what you guy's and guyetts have written. The flag represents my home, my memories as a child, my parents, how I grew up. It represents many men I knew who are now dead. Men I respected, admired, loved, sweated with, bled with...it was a symbol...I am still proud of it. But, it is a piece of cloth.

Those who served in the military have different reasons for joining. Some were drafted, some wanted to exploit the education benefits, some to pull their heads out of their asses, some....because we believed that the freedoms this country has cannot be tampered with. Im one of those. If a man wants to burn his flag, fly it upside down....I dont really care. I salute it often because it brings back great memories but it also represents the freedom to protest like that. It's not a brave act, it doesnt really do anything except piss people off. But if thats what bangs your shutters....then my 23 years of service were valid.

Its funny we've been talking about all of this and I took my boy and his friend to the barnum and baily circus yesterday and at the beginning of the show, they asked everyone to stand and salute the flag "because it is was the war is for" (that's a direct quote from the ring master). I did not stand. And I looked around and noticed that there were others who didn't as well. Made me want to seek them out later and ask them why they didn't. Who knows, maybe they were tired. I know I didn't because I thought it was a pretty lame ass attempt at mock patriotism on the part of the circus. What the fuck? They, of course, sang the national anthem. Honestly, it was weird and grotesque.

Well stated Abell.
The flag is a representation of things that are fine and noble.
As long as we patriots don't forget that it's a representation, we're doin fine!
But when we make the flag the object of the focus, then we've clearly forgotten what it's supposed to represent.

Good for you. To me this war, now occupation, seems to be about everything we have previously stood against. I can't help but wonder if this is how German citizens felt as Hitler concentrated his power. I trust we'll awaken enough people in time to stop this madness soon.


Democracy is like sex. It's best when you participate.

LOL

Circus is filled with freaks, lefty. Just like Capitol Hill. Freaks I tell ya!

The elephants parade around holding each other's tail, lock step.

And the clowns. THE CLOWNS. Their SUV looks so compact, yet is so spacious to hold 'em all.

And those trapeze artists. They sure do know how to walk that fine line, NO?

To venerate the flag and nation is unreasonable.
To confound one with the other is downright stupid.
We are not living in magic world here.
Nations can die, just like people can.
There are no exceptional or sacred nations.
Period.
And as for Japan, their culture forbids the equality of human beings.
They feel intense contempt for anyone, nation or individual, who subscribes to that notion.