The history of the middle east always seems to end up dominating any discussion pertaining to Israel, Palistine and the mid east in general. I'd like to try and keep one thread dedicated to discussing the future.

If anyone has any ideas about how to stop the current conflict and future conflicts as well. What are your thoughts on how to end the cycle of violence?

History dominates because it's important.

However, to answer your question, it's quite simple. Treat Israel like any other nation. If it kills it's own people, sanction it. If it aggressivly bombs its neighbours, sanction and isolate it.

Nations like North Korea have been crippled by brutal economic sanctions. Have the US stop arming and enabling Israel to be a brutal aggressive Zionist state, and actually treat it like any other nation on the planet.

Israel would be forced to actually deal with the palestinians in a way other than building ghetto's and killing them.

They would have to work with their Arab neighbours instead of bombing them brutally.

The solution is easy. The tricky part? Getting the US to actually participate.

I'm afraid you can't get to the future without first going through the past.
The future is based on the past. The future is the past boiled down.

Ya simply can't have one without the other, and that includes this discussion.
At least, that my opinion.

No ideas? Then why even post a comment? All over this board I see people arguing about the past. How relevent is it to achieving peace? Seriously? The problem is, there will never be a consensus on the past. So, what does it matter who is at fault? Most sides have done wrong (Hamas, Hezbollah, the Israelie government etc), nobody is going anywhere.

At what point do you stop worrying about things you cannot change and change what you can?

September 11, 1922

League of Nations forms the Nation of Zion(Israel)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Manda...Nations_mandate

Second to last paragraph:

In September 1922, the British government presented a memorandum to the League of Nations stating that Transjordan would be excluded from all the provisions dealing with Jewish settlement, and this memorandum was approved on 11 September. From that point onwards, Britain administered the part west of the Jordan as Palestine (which was 23% of the entire territory), and the part east of the Jordan as Transjordan (constituting 77% of the mandated territories). Technically they remained one mandate but most official documents referred to them as if they were two separate mandates. Transjordan remained under British control until 1946.

In 1923 Britain transferred a part of the Golan Heights to the French Mandate of Syria, in exchange for the Metula region.

The sooner we recognize this as the root of the Middle East conflicts, the sooner we will be able to heal the wounds inflicted.

How far back shall we go in determining just who has original claim to this land? I mean, mammoths and neanderthals fought on this land in prehistoric times. Ever since, this land has known nothing but conflict; ever.

I really only want to discuss the future here and I hope that the membership will participate as actively as they are with laying blame for the current conflict.

I guess the question could be this. Do you think Israel has the right to exist?

True enough, ya can't change the past.

However, if you do not learn from it, yer doomed to repeat it!
In which case, you can't talk about the future, without talking about the past as well.

Unless, it's OK to go through all the old mistakes yet again.

You wanna change what can be changed, but you can't know what that is without an examination of the past!

As I have said, if you go back to the beginnings, they BOTH occupied the land. There was no country called Israel, though the Jews always wanted one. There was no country called Palestine, even though the entire area was referred to as "Palestine". (today we call it "the Middle East")

Both the Jews and the Arabs have claimed rights to the land that they BOTH occupied.
This is the basic reason why I claim that they are BOTH AT FAULT!

How do we progress forward to Peace in the area? I personally have no idea, except for one thing.
The US and the Brits, but mostly the US now, have GOT to stop fueling the fire! The US does it because the neocons and other conservatives see it as being in the national interest, when in fact, it's in the interest of the world corporations!

American business interests stand to profit from unrest, and the more unstable a given situation is, the more profit is to be made. So, lets give the Jews MORE bombs and planes, thus inflaming the animosities, and ensuring huge profits for decades.


Yes, Israel has the right to exist, just as Palestine does. They are BOTH indigenous peoples!

If you removed the orginizations Hezbollah and Hamas from the picture, the people who make up these groups and the bad blood they possess would persist, and simply take another name.


To blame Hezbollah and Hamas is to say the Israelies have not polayed their part in this. The fact is, they are also guilty! Check the intifada. How and why that came to pass.

Sorry Captain, but Hezbollah and Hamas are not the issue. They are only a reflection of the issue.
The issue, is 2000+ year old issues of revenge and retribution that become so old and imbedded, no one really know why they do it, except that "THEY" are the bad guys, not "US"

This is little more than the longest running feud in world history.

I'm sure many Palestinians feel the same way about Hamas, who have been the only agency effective in bringing clean water and many medical supplies into Palestinian slums. Many Palestinians believe that Hamas is the only thing keeping the Israelis from marching in soldiers and stealing their homes altogether.


That might be true, if the Likud government didn't have a history of constantly disproportionate responses to Hamas and Hezbollah that inevitably turns public opinion against the Israelis. Families who had no particular allegiance to Hamas suddenly find themselves staunch supporters of the PLO when a son or daughter gets caught in the blast of another Israeli overreaction.

Yes!

And vise versa!



Hense, it's a feud!
Gang turf warfare on an international level.
Only one gang has 80% of the weaponry.

Interesting how this thread takes on the same characteristics of the conflict in Lebanon huh? Everyone trying to justify thier opinion by pointing thier finger at the other guy, trying to justify thier actions by looking backward, into the past. What a waste of time.

I threw down this challenge to sort out who had the future interests of the region as thier priority. So far, not getting many takers. I wonder why?

Isn't anyone interested in exploring ideas to that might end the fighting. Isn't that what we are truly interested in? Or would some people just rather see one side or the other wiped out? This thread is really making me think about what motivates some of you.

Sorry, but as i said earlier, I don't have any ideas on how to solve this problem,
except to make sure we vote blue in december and encourage the same of all Americans,
that the best thing we can do as Americans, is to encourage our government to not continuue to fan the flames in the name of our nation interets, which are in reality all about big profits.

Here's my solution.

Vote blue? The Dem's are in the "support Israel no matter what" camp as well.

No difference.

Perhaps because you are trying to frame the discussion so as to make a point you already have in mind. To steer the topic in a direction that cannot recognize the creation of millions of displaced Palestian refugees and internees and their subsequent oppression as the problem. Your response to that suggestion is the standard "Oh, so you're saying Israel has no right to exist." People here do not respond well to this tactic. Would you like to explore means whereby the grievances of the Palestinians would be addressed? That is the crux of the solution.

Enforcement of Israels pre-1967 borders by the UN, and nuclear disarmament of Israel.

Okay, now maybe we're getting somewhere.

But I was not trying to set you or anyone else up with the question of whether or not Israel has a right to exist. That is highly presumptuous. Maybe there have been members previous to me who use that as a tactic; I don't. I'm new here and maybe you aren't used to people who try to post what they think clearly and I couldn't have been any clearer.

So I ask again; do you think Israel has a right to exist? Just a yes or no will do. And it's not a set up, I'm just curious as to your opinion.

Why don't you "set something down in black and white" rather than simply ask leading questions and drag us around in circles?

I've yet to see you add anything to this discussion.

Who ever has the biggist guns say what is or is not.

My opinion that Israel is an illegal nations is trit at best.

Maybe because I originated the thread? Maybe because I'm the one seeking input from others. If you don't want to play, ignore the thread. Why are some hesitant to answer the question? I'm new here, why should anyone presume that I'm just trying to stir up some kind of controversy? I'm not.

Did you read the entire thread? I have most certainly offered as much to the discussion as anyone else had, unfortunately I seem to be spending most of my time in preventing the thread from being hijacked. Most of the threads I've read around here go like this. Someone asks a question, someone answers the question, and the usual suspects show up and start in with personal attacks, the discussion degenerates and the topic is lost. I'd like that not to be the case here. I don't expect there to be unanimoty on the topic, but I would like to see a range of ideas and thoughts.

But, since you asked. I'll answer my own question. Yes, I think Israel has every right not only to exist, but to protect herself, same with every country in the middle east. And I do make a separation between innocent civilians and Hezbollah/Hamas or any other terroristic organization. I also recognize as legitimate, the grievences of Arabs who live in the region. I also recognize the right of Israel to exist. I therein lies the issue huh?

If I wasn't clear enough, just ask me. I have no problem offering my opinion, for that is all it is; an opinion. I'm not perfect. And I don't have a problem changing my mind if I'm convinced through intelligent thought and fact. If that isn't reasonable enough for you, I don't know what else I can tell you.

Invite them all over for Pizza. The Israeli's and all the Arabs.
Can't hardly be mad at anyone when the Pizza is free!
Book every Chucky Cheese in America for a night and have a massive Pizza party!
Then when they're all full, ya bang on a cup and get their attention and tell them
that no one gets to play in the plastic ball pit until they agree to live in peace!

That is not the issue, and you know it, so don't try to drag it there. If you want to discuss whether or not Israel has a right to exist, start a thread entitled "Does Israel have a right to exist?" The question is a standard freeper talking point, with a pre-packaged arguement for either answer. We've seen it before, which is obviously no insurance against seeing it again. Ad nauseum.